Old Discussion Thread for all 3 motion controllers

[NavNucST3]

Sure, but at the moment people are citing the technical aspects of Natal as unjustified - "It's not worth $150 because it's a couple of cameras." The same argument can be presented for Wii - "it's not worth $200 because it's just a $40 GC, and XB360 is much better value." If this is all consumers were presented with, I doubt many would have bought Wii. However, they were presented with different experiences, and it's there the value proposition comes into effect. The products have a degree of appeal that potential shoppers have to weigh up against its cost. Is this experience worth this price? At the moment we don't know what Natal/Wave's experience is. I hope! If the experience is limb-waggling breakout, it's certainly not worth $150! But if it offers some world-changing experience as yet unshown, it may be people look at the price and think, "it's steep, but man I've gotta have this!" and shell out.

I think you are overlapping your consumer here, to be $150 you have to already have a 360 otherwise it is $300+ (based wholly on rumored pricing). The Wii argument is fallacious considering how many units the GameCube sold and how many the Wii has sold and it also proved that the Wii WAS the better value given how many units it continues to sell; there was no me-too aspect when the Wii launched. What you and Rancid are saying is that "we" are delusional to think that the market that has already purchase a Wii is now primed to drop $300 on a 360++ or you are saying that there is still an untapped mass of consumers that has so far shunned the 360 AND Wii that is primed to purchase the 360++ en masse and with that, I do not concur.

I am under no delusion that my gaming expenditures are considered the norm.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

I think you are overlapping your consumer here, to be $150 you have to already have a 360 otherwise it is $300+ (based wholly on rumored pricing). The Wii argument is fallacious considering how many units the GameCube sold and how many the Wii has sold and it also proved that the Wii WAS the better value given how many units it continues to sell; there was no me-too aspect when the Wii launched. What you and Rancid are saying is that "we" are delusional to think that the market that has already purchase a Wii is now primed to drop $300 on a 360++ or you are saying that there is still an untapped mass of consumers that has so far shunned the 360 AND Wii that is primed to purchase the 360++ en masse and with that, I do not concur.

I'm not saying anything of the sort, nor saying that anyone's delusional. I don't know how you're reading that.

Okay, question : what does an XB360 user get when they buy a $150 Natal/Wave peripheral?

 

[patsu]

Pshaw. I've seen Chloe O'Brien do that on hundreds of traffic cameras simultaneously. Biometric facial recognition isn't actually that interesting. Any camera can do it, provided you've written the software. And lots of people have written the software.

Yap ! But Sony and Nintendo have not rolled out controller-free applications in a big way since EyeToy. So the field is still wide open for Microsoft to take. ^_^

Yeah ,sure...
Beyond 5-6 metters Natal is depth blind ,and out of enough precision before that.
And from what we saw it has a lot troubles tracking a kid at 3m.
If they had to count on this to find BinLaden ,the WOT(tm) wouldn't be over any time soon.

I think within the tech limit, MS can do very cool things with Natal. They only need one jackpot.

 

[dragonelite]

Really god dam hate the pre E3 rumor shit.
Natal is priced for 80 euro at a dutch online retailer i just saw on neogaf.
Natal'wave' likes to change its price all the time from sub 70 to 120 to 80 euro

 

[Rangers]

Doesn't mean the website is any more reliable than the previous $149 rumor though.

Hopefully Natal will be a lot more like $80 though. I think it is.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

€80, ~$100. Is that website typically selling around RRP or heavily discounted?

 

[Squilliam]

€80, ~$100. Is that website typically selling around RRP or heavily discounted?

What happened to Euro = Dollar? Hasn't the Euro fallen relatively speaking due to their crisis of confidence so therefore the old rule of the thumb would be more applicable?

If 1E = $1.2 then surely 1E incl VAT = $1 + applicable tax?

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Good point. I was going by exchange rate. I suppose that €80 price will also be including VAT, meaning the actual price is less, so yeah, $100 is probably more accurate.

 

[Arwin]

It's not impossible that Microsoft will price Natal more aggressively in Europe, as the 360 is much weaker there than in the U.S., and even more so in the 'casual' market.

I'm personally going to hold off speculation until after E3. In the end the price is a factor of production versus expected sales as well as competition.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

I'm personally going to hold off speculation until after E3.

But then it won't be speculation!

 

[Arwin]

But then it won't be speculation!

But that's speculating that they'll actually announce the price at E3 ...

Of course it's not unlikely that they'll do just that, but the final price at launch is what counts.

 

[Squilliam]

Good point. I was going by exchange rate. I suppose that €80 price will also be including VAT, meaning the actual price is less, so yeah, $100 is probably more accurate.

But its 67 Euro before VAT and once you factor in the exchange rate it comes out at $82.62 assuming the VAT rate is 19% like this calculator suggests. Since Americans apply their sales tax to the price the list prices ought to be E = $.

 

[dragonelite]

€80, ~$100. Is that website typically selling around RRP or heavily discounted?

Its more of the expensive online retailers mostly selling around recommend retailer price. When we get closer to launch im sure i can find it closer to 70 or maybe even lower if i import it from the uk which a lot of online dutch retailers do it's way cheaper.

 

[aselto]

This whole Natal thingy fascinates me quite a bit, more precisely Microsoft's shift towards casual market. On one hand they are doing quite in the traditional gaming area, but apparently decided to leave the market almost entirely to 3rd parties and (to a degree) Sony, with only milking their traditionally big franchises. It's somewhat understandable as years of trying to catering to various audiences within traditional gaming have been met usually with little to none success (eg. failure of Lost Odyssey and Blue Dragon along with moneyhatted 3rd party JRPGs) and even their recent outing - Alan Wake - got squashed in sales by RDR. Their biggest success stories - Halo and Gears of War - happened when they created a market for these types of games (on consoles at least).

In this light it's quite obvious why Microsoft want to go away from arms race with 3rd parties and Sony and would rather try to deliver new experiences for completely untapped audience, or at least tapped only by Nintendo. The interesting thing will be if they actually have something beyond Wii Sports and Wii Fit clones - the Milo demo makes me actually hopeful that they do have interesting concepts in works. If Natal software is Wii-Too only, then MS might squeeze themselves out of the market, because that definitely won't sway anyone (regardless of price), while Sony slowly bites into the marketshare on the traditional market, with PS3 pushing more software in last year than 360. We'll see in two weeks, I guess.

 

[Rangers]

But Sony is also trying to capture the casual market with Move.

Sometimes I wonder if it's worth bothering. Wii's share versus the hardcore twins has been falling for a while now. It appears to me the "hardcore" market was inevitably overtaking the casual one anyway. Maybe they would have been better off concentrating on hardware price drops.

 

[aselto]

But Sony is also trying to capture the casual market with Move.

Sometimes I wonder if it's worth bothering. Wii's share versus the hardcore twins has been falling for a while now. It appears to me the "hardcore" market was inevitably overtaking the casual one anyway. Maybe they would have been better off concentrating on hardware price drops.

Sony seems a lot less agressive with Move though, and seem to be marketing it as the most precise motion controller, which doesn't exactly scream likea sure bet.

Looking at this, certainly overall sales of hardcore titles are far greater than those of casual ones, at leastin the retail space. However, recent success of Just Dance shows that there's a lot of money lieing on the table as long as you come up with new ideas. Ongoing great sales of Wii also prove that it's worth it.

 

[egoless]

This whole Natal thingy fascinates me quite a bit, more precisely Microsoft's shift towards casual market.

It's no different from any previous generation. They start hardcore, and go casual at the end with peripherals being part of going casual. Nintendo simply flipped the script, which is why there has been such a cry for this E3 to be a hardcore proving ground for them.

On one hand they are doing quite in the traditional gaming area, but apparently decided to leave the market almost entirely to 3rd parties and (to a degree) Sony, with only milking their traditionally big franchises.

Which is simply Microsoft following the PS2 script don't you think? Not a bad idea considering that kept Sony afloat for quite some time.

In this light it's quite obvious why Microsoft want to go away from arms race with 3rd parties and Sony and would rather try to deliver new experiences for completely untapped audience, or at least tapped only by Nintendo.

Again, no different from previous generations. They're not abandoning anything, but laying the groundwork for extending their current console's lifecycle and making sure to CLEARLY (as in the consumer has a reference point that's certainly not wii) address both markets in their next hardware.

 

[patsu]

But Sony is also trying to capture the casual market with Move.

Sometimes I wonder if it's worth bothering. Wii's share versus the hardcore twins has been falling for a while now. It appears to me the "hardcore" market was inevitably overtaking the casual one anyway. Maybe they would have been better off concentrating on hardware price drops.

I think the market has changed a little. A large part of casuals/non-gamers seem to have moved to web games (at least observing my family members and friends) or even phone and iPad titles. I am somewhat concerned by this because IMHO those games have very poor UI (many don't have pause/resume), and most are unimaginative (but highly addictive). iPad games may be too inexpensive (and may curb innovation in the long run, if priced too cheaply). [size=-2]Afraid devs may have charged in to claim share without thinking too much about long term, like during dotcom boom days.[/size]

To truly capture the casual market, Sony may have to tap more on Sony Online Entertainment, and web integration. Natal is special in the sense that it can go beyond gaming, especially in public areas. Move is purely a gaming thing. So Sony needs to be very very careful in planning and executing it so that it can have the intended effect on consumers at large.

 

[AzBat]

Looks like one Natal has been leaked...

Brunswick Pro Bowling. Seems to be a modified version of the PS Move version announced at GDC.

http://multiplayerblog.mtv.com/2010/05/28/brunswick-pro-bowling-getting-natal-support/

Tommy McClain

 

[Rangers]

Sony seems a lot less agressive with Move though, and seem to be marketing it as the most precise motion controller, which doesn't exactly scream likea sure bet.

Looking at this, certainly overall sales of hardcore titles are far greater than those of casual ones, at leastin the retail space. However, recent success of Just Dance shows that there's a lot of money lieing on the table as long as you come up with new ideas. Ongoing great sales of Wii also prove that it's worth it.

To flesh out this point some more, this week's UK chart

01 (01) 360 Red Dead Redemption (Take 2)
02 (02) PS3 Red Dead Redemption (Take 2)
03 (__) PS3 Ufc 2010: Undisputed (Thq)
04 (__) 360 Ufc 2010: Undisputed (Thq)
05 (03) WII Just Dance (Ubisoft)
06 (04) WII Wii Fit Plus (Nintendo)
07 (06) PS3 2010 Fifa World Cup South Africa (Electronic Arts)
08 (08) 360 2010 Fifa World Cup South Africa (Electronic Arts)
09 (09) WII Wii Sports Resort (Nintendo)
10 (07) PS3 Modnation Racers (Sony Computer Ent.)
11 (12) 360 Call Of Duty: Modern Warfare 2 (Activision Blizzard)
12 (05) 360 Alan Wake (Microsoft)
13 (10) 360 Lost Planet 2 (Capcom)
14 (11) 360 Split/second: Velocity (Disney Interactive Studios)
15 (23) 360 Tom Clancy's Splinter Cell: Conviction (Ubisoft)
16 (__) 360 Blur (Activision Blizzard)
17 (19) 360 Prince Of Persia: The Forgotten Sands (Ubisoft)
18 (14) PS3 Split/second: Velocity (Disney Interactive Studios)
19 (16) PS3 Prince Of Persia: The Forgotten Sands (Ubisoft)
20 (17) 360 Battlefield: Bad Company 2 (Electronic Arts)
21 (__) 360 Alpha Protocol (Sega)
22 (18) PS3 Lost Planet 2 (Capcom)
23 (21) WII New Super Mario Bros. Wii (Nintendo)
24 (__) PS3 Alpha Protocol (Sega)
25 (15) PS3 Battlefield: Bad Company 2 (Electronic Arts)
26 (20) PS3 Grand Theft Auto Episodes - Liberty City (Take 2)
27 (13) 360 Skate 3 (Electronic Arts)
28 (22) 360 Forza Motorsport 3 (Microsoft)
29 (24) NDS Pokemon Soulsilver (Nintendo)
30 (32) PS3 Call Of Duty: Modern Warfare 2 (Activision Blizzard)
31 (29) NDS New Super Mario Bros. (Nintendo)
32 (__) PS3 Blur (Activision Blizzard)
33 (26) NDS Pokemon Heartgold (Nintendo)
34 (27) 360 Final Fantasy Xiii (Square Enix Europe)
35 (31) WII Mario Kart Wii (Nintendo)
36 (__) 360 Super Street Fighter Iv (Capcom)
37 (33) PS3 Super Street Fighter Iv (Capcom)
38 (__) PC Football Manager 2010 (Sega)
39 (37) 360 Just Cause 2 (Square Enix Europe)
40 (__) 360 Lego Batman: The Videogame (Warner Bros. Interactive)

There's 18 360 games, 13 PS3 games (31 combined HD games), and wait for it, FIVE Wii games.

Sure Wii is selling a lot of hardware (though even that has/is declining), but do you really want to sell more hardware when it's a loss leader, as PS3/360 is, basically?

Hell maybe that's what's behind the seeming high price of Natal. Maybe MS is banking on the hardware to bring the profits, not the software.