Old Discussion Thread for all 3 motion controllers

[patsu]

Sony is in the market already with PS Eye. Many of the Natal applications can be done here. The waggle controller gives it more functionality vis-a-vis Wii.

In terms of interfacing with your console.

For example, I want to stream some video's off my PC from the Xbox:

- turn on Xbox, sit on couch (don't bother trying to find controller that is probably lodged in my cushions)
- Tell Xbox to "Show Videos" > "PC"
- Using only hand gestures, navigate to video, quick point to begin playing
- Phone rings, say "Pause", get up answer phone
- Sit down, say "Play", enjoy your movie.

Come on... that's cool, that pretty futuristic, that's somethine people will remember when they see it in action.

Doable in PS Eye if lighting condition is good. If I were Sony, I'd just look into the "seeing in the dark" issue.

 

[scooby_dooby]

That's individual behaviour. It's still a discussion since ideas and tech points are deliberated and debated.

I know... what I said was I didn't understand the 'bickering', not that the entire discussion was bickering

 

[scooby_dooby]

Doable in PS Eye if lighting condition is good.

Then what a major missed opportunity for Sony.

It's kinda like whoever implements the idea first is going to be associated with it, even if it is technically possible on the other console.

It doesn't really matter what it can do, it matters what it does. Software is everything.

Who knows, Sony has lots of time, maybe they'll build dash support for it into the PS3 by launch. I have no problems with borrowing ideas if they're good ones, I think it's the smart decision actually.

 

[Asher]

- Very limited for gaming, no buttons to control anything will totally limit the type of games you can play with it.

Again, I don't understand this complaint. Natal can easily and quite obviously augment other control systems, including devices with buttons. I expect it will by the time it releases next year. It's quite a revenue stream...

Then what a major missed opportunity for Sony.

Doable in theory and practical in reality are very different things. Especially regarding PSEye. That's why no PSEye games actually took off.

 

[patsu]

Then what a major missed opportunity for Sony.

That's what we have been complaining all these years. The "no remote" UI has been talked about on B3D since PS Eye launched.
Then again, the PS3 is expensive.

They have another shot this year being alone, and potentially cheaper.

PS Eye didn't take off because the only full game that use it is Eye of Judgment (a niche game), and Sony didn't market the concept fully too. They deserve a few kicks in the nuts for this.

 

[Crossbar]

I don´t think we have seen Microsofts complete solution yet as I expressed in the Natal thread. I expect MS to introduce wands as well. Similar to what Sony has done by first introducing the PSEye and now later on they are introducing the wands.

Natal could easily be compared to the PS Eye with an added z-component, they both have a microphone array as well.

I think Natal will really shine in games like "In the movies" which didn´t work well due to the limitations of a 2-D camera. We will see amazing things and maybe Spielberg will come up with some really good ideas.

Games like this

are not really that different from what already exist for the Eyetoy, and will probably be as popular in the casual segment.

Milo was a mind-boggling demo even though it probably was extremely staged in every detail. However, the 3D interaction was not really the most impressive part of that demo IMO. To me it was the speech recognition and the AI. But to make it all work together and make a complete game built on the technology will be a tough task. Will be interesting to see if they will bother to make it work for any non-english speaking market and to see how well it handle strong accents.

I think the Sony solution have been in development for a long time and it may even have set the spec. of the PS Eye i.e. the microphone array and its ability to detect ultra sonic sound, light sensitivity, frame rate etc.. The Sony controller patent was filed June 6, 2007, the Playstation Eye was introduced in late october 2007.

I think Sonys focus has been to get a low BOM for the full solution and that is one of the reasons why they didn´t opt for a 3d camera which we know they´ve had in their labs.

Sony probably already has a decent margin on the PS Eye, it will be really interesting to see what the price of the wand will be, if they will sell them in pairs and bundled with different games? If there will be a PS3 bundle with camera and wands etc. it may turn out to be pretty price competetive with the Wii HD when it launches 2010 or 2011.

 

[scooby_dooby]

Again, I don't understand this complaint. Natal can easily and quite obviously augment other control systems, including devices with buttons. I expect it will by the time it releases next year. It's quite a revenue stream...

I did think of that after I posted though, there's nothing to stop MS from utilizing the built in remote, or someone could even hold a controller I suppose.

Still, if you're expecting any decent number of titles to come out that use buttons, you sort of need a standard interface, not some "add on" that x% of people are going to buy. Otherwise what youre talking about is game specific bundles, which are not only expensive, but usually totally gimmicky.

 

[dobwal]

Isn't precise mapping a function of response time (and other parameters) ? If the timing is off, the manipulate would be off too (Hence, the confusion in the brain: "Why the $^#&$# did it fall again ? I thought I placed it correctly ?").

1:1 mapping requires precise response, but precise response doesn't require 1:1 mapping.

In a virtual sword fights maintaining 1:1 mapping introduces a lot of limitations. One would be weapon variety in terms of weight. 1:1 mapping would require that a 40 pound axe responds as well as swords that weigh just a few pounds unless the game came with accessories of varying weights to maintain realism, but that would kill your pockets in terms of shipping costs (LOL) if you were to order this game online.

1:1 mapping would constantly have to be broken unless you as a game dev eliminate any interaction of the gamer's virtual sword within the virtual world. You can't force a gamer to limit their range of motion, so how do you handle one to one mapping during a block where in the virtual world where the sword has been forced to stop but in the physical world the gamer carries to strike throughout its full range of motion. You either have to your virtual AI re establish 1:1 mapping by reorient itself to mimick the gamer or encourage the gamer to re establish 1:1 mapping by reorienting himself. If you have a fast action sword fight you may end up with too many instances of this happening which would kill the fluidity in what we expect of a sword fight.

 

[patsu]

Yeah... I realized what you're referring to after I posted. My original statement was "direct manipulation" not "direct mapping". If I need to manipulate the objects convincingly (not just swinging), then response time and precise changes is a critical part of the feedback.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Not sure how I forgot the PSEye, it doesn't do what Natal does, if it can than that's a HUGE oversight by Sony not to include Gesture/Voice controls in the PS3 XMB.

It doesn't do 3D, but can do everything else (although accurate player following is much ahrdware without the 3D data to support it, so let's say some fo the motion interfacing is unattainable). There was a vid a while back of potential applications of PSEye including both concept and WIP footage that covered a lot of this. They included a microphone array in PSEye exactly for the voice aspect. Yes, Sony are dumb! After introducing EyeToy, they've done next to nothing, instead of driving this aspect forwards so MS's showing wouldn't have looked so futuristic.

Edit : Here's the concept vid

Some stuff looks farfetched, like the 3D armour. Maybe someone else can remember the original source and claims?

 

[Scott_Arm]

erm...OK, watched Milo and the 2 'family' videos - the staged one with the racing game where the dad changes tyres (among others) and the 'live' one where mum does a painting (whilst family are sitting watching). I also watched the live painting demo...not seen anything yet that looks vastly better than eyetoy?

Are there any other demos? So far all I can think is 'eyetoy 3' - from all the fuss I was expecting this to replace controllers? I must be missing something...they also keep stressing 'no more controllers' which would imply no extra buttons?

There is also a demo at E3 using a modified burnout paradise. Kind of like the racing in the staged video but minus the gear shifting.

 

[patsu]

EyePet E3 2009 trailer: http://gamevideos.1up.com/video/id/24989

EDIT:

Some stuff looks farfetched, like the 3D armour. Maybe someone else can remember the original source and claims?

To be fair to the PS Eye team, after the initial 2D motion tracking technology, they also implemented:
* Head tracking (Omega tracking)
* Color tracking (3D tracking is useless here)
* Drawing recognition (Forming 3D objects by drawing multiple 2D parts).

Someone also ported Johnny's IR tracking to PS Eye last year.


The key issue is their price point, and market focus (Where do they want to shoot ?).

 

[liolio]

I don't really get the bickering over which of thse is better, they seem to have some fairly stark differences here:

Natal:
- Great for user interface/interaction with the system itself, and media playback.
- Very limited for gaming, no buttons to control anything will totally limit the type of games you can play with it.
- Probably easier to sell as it only requires one periph', and has a cool factor totally unmatched by Sony's offering.

PSMC:
- Much much better for actual gaming
- Far more accuracy/precision and can have actual butttons to control games. Far more potential here from a gaming standpoint
- Will suffer from a major 'been there done that' perception, as it appears very similar to what the Wii is doing. Not much differentiaion here to the casual.
- Faces an uphill battle because of costs (relative to wii), and the fact you need two peripherals for it to work.
- May benefit from it's similarity to the Wii, can port over Wii games.

So, to me:

User interface/cool-factor/probablity of success: Winner Natal

Precision/Control/in-game usage: Winner PSMC

I don't really think PSMC has a great chance to succeed because it's too similar to what is already offered, and it doesn't really do anything that is going to excite people en masse. I think it's an awesome control scheme (both the Archery, and Painting demo's were way better than the MS or Nintendo equivalents), but I don't think it'll take off.

Natal, I think will be succesful, just because of the futuristic interface, and ability to interact with your console as though it's the year 2030 instead of 2010. For that alone, adoption is going to spread pretty quickly. Friends are going to come over, see it in action, and WANT IT!

Pretty nicely put, still I think that Natal can be successful in quiet some games but it's clear that fast pace games as FPS/TPS platformer/adventure are out of his range without bringing extra accessories.
The key point could be trading higher immersion and the cost of slower paced gameplay I can see a bunch of possibilities if your accept the trade offs.

Here some ideas for a slow pace game (it could be a oblivion type of fps).
The aiming reticule could moved by tracking your head movement.
Then the rest of the action could be achieved by some pre define movements of both hands and arms .
here some hand positions that could be used/tracked (think of a jutsu system as per Naruto... ):
closed hand (tied fist not sure about how you would describe in english)
closed hand + the thumb sticking out (two possibilites per hand if needed)
closed hand + the forefinger sticking out
closed hand + the forefinger sticking out + the thumb sticking out
open hand (finger all stuck together)
open hand + thumb sticking out (two possibilites per hand if needed)
Open hand all finger spread out
Then depending on the action allocated to each stance you could mix in forearm movements.

In pratice it could be (random example):
Aiming: head movements

Movements: left hand
Don't move/neutral: closed fist
Go backward: closed fist+the thumb sticking out
Forward: closed hand + the forefinger sticking out + the thumb sticking out
Run: closed hand + the forefinger sticking out

Action/camera: right hand
Camera movements: open hand + thumb sticking out + forearm movement
Selection/action: closed hand + the forefinger sticking out + the thumb sticking out + clicking motion
Switch between mode (think combat vs exploration vs spell casting): Open hand all finger spread out.
Once in combat/spell casting mode you can go for motion mapping to trigger specific spell/attack

I could see my self playing a game like this if the pace is slow down. It put pressure on the character own IA, the character must be able to deal some low level action by it self (think kind of assasin creed) to let you focus on higher level problem.

 

[obonicus]

Disturbing, as always. Sony really needs to start bundling the PS Eye in PS3s.

 

[deathindustrial]

You only get one chance to make a good first impression. MS would be remarkably stupid if they released Natal with "partial functionality" (eg, not very good compared to its potential). Especially if Sony isn't launching til 2010 themselves.

I would argue that Microsoft has a long history of releasing partial / poorly implemented projects but then incrementally improving them over time. Though this mostly happens with their software (IIS for one), a recent hardware case would be the Zune players. You could also go as far to say the Xbox360 is an example of that (massive failure rate with the first few iterations of the console).

So it is quite likely that Natal will be released in some half-assed form but then updated over time or morphed into some other product.

It's not like Microsoft Bob was the end point, Clippy annoyed people for years after that.

=)

As an aside, I am seeing a lot of unexpected negativity to Natal on a what tends to be pro-Microsoft enthusiast gaming site (EvilAvatar). The running joke there is that Milo is a "pedophile simulator". Microsoft is going to have to show a solid application that appeals to their core audience or switch gears entirely over to the media side of things with the 360 if this is going to become a core part of the experience.

And there is also the privacy issue surrounding having a 3D capable monitoring device in everyone's home. Marketers and Pentagon control freaks must be drooling over Natal. . .

Cheers

 

[L. Scofield]

You guys are missing the fact that you can still be in your couch using a regular controller and then make specific gestures for the camera when required. Both control schemes are not mutually exclusive as you put it.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Indeed, head tracking for a camera in combo with the standard control would be of benefit to the next FPS on XB360 (same on PS3!). Natal can benefit traditional gamers as well as attracting simlistic casuals. I suppose the worrying thing is that developers continue to shun possibilities for whatever reasons and the market splits into conventional game with conventional controls and lightweight games with motion control.

 

[obonicus]

You guys are missing the fact that you can still be in your couch using a regular controller and then make specific gestures for the camera when required. Both control schemes are not mutually exclusive as you put it.

That's true, and I've heard that used as a justification of sorts. Or that you can issue voice commands. But... I'm still not sure why that's desirable, or in the second case, new. Ubisoft even released a full-price, commercial game where the main gameplay innovation was extensive use of voice commands. I don't really recall anyone caring particularly much.

I can wave my hands at the screen, but why would I want to? Pointing at the screen is more reasonable, though, but no one seems to really have addressed whether the Natal can do that.

 

[Asher]

I did think of that after I posted though, there's nothing to stop MS from utilizing the built in remote, or someone could even hold a controller I suppose.

Still, if you're expecting any decent number of titles to come out that use buttons, you sort of need a standard interface, not some "add on" that x% of people are going to buy. Otherwise what youre talking about is game specific bundles, which are not only expensive, but usually totally gimmicky.

And I'm saying it may even come out with a one-handed controller or so. That wasn't necessary for the demo because the technology to wirelessly press buttons already exists.

 

[Love_In_Rio]

Then what a major missed opportunity for Sony.

It's kinda like whoever implements the idea first is going to be associated with it, even if it is technically possible on the other console.

It doesn't really matter what it can do, it matters what it does. Software is everything.

Who knows, Sony has lots of time, maybe they'll build dash support for it into the PS3 by launch. I have no problems with borrowing ideas if they're good ones, I think it's the smart decision actually.

Sony miss many opportunities, above all taking into account it counts with researches as good as Richard Marks´. See this demo from several years ago with the PS2 Eyetoy:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FpNdkm9s8AY

I supposse Richard will be very happy now that has seen a window open to see in the market some of his researches and i hope now he receives more investment ant be taken more seriously inside Sony. Its clear he loves his job.

What i can´t understand is how Sony didn´t know certainly that Microsoft would show its tech. I knew weeks ago!.Too many blue collars without having games as a hobby...