Old Discussion Thread for all 3 motion controllers

[patsu]

Yap ! I believe when they said no finger tracking earlier, they were referring specifically to individual finger tracking in the skeleton model. You don't have to use the skeleton model. The camera (even PS Eye) has always been able to track the overall hand gesture/shape.

It´s probably an ergonomical decision. The action button is rather big. A button above and a button below the action button would be rather awkward to reach for a small hand. It´s easier to slide the thumb to the right or left side with just a slight offset in height.

One giant diamond button may be har do to handle when waggling the wand, it may cause to many unintentional button pressures.

As Jerome mentioned, the button could be circular, with a diamond shape layout.

If it's one giant button... It's true that one giant button is harder to handle while waggling, but the developers can choose to treat its corners logically the same while the controller is in-motion (i.e., as one big button). This should solve the "no other button under the action button" problem. The users can still use the directional corners when the controller is stationary, or when no firm grip is needed. It will work exactly like the current layout.

It may be an implementation/cost issue.

I think a lot of people are completely overlooking the pressure sensitive buttons on the back and front of the controller (the pressure pad and the trigger). If you look at the 'puppet' demo, these are what allow a user to control the opening and closing of the hand.

The combination of precise 3D tracking, rumble and these two pressure sensitive buttons are very important.

I also expect the light-bulb functionality to appeal to casuals more than expected.

Yes, that's my sense too. I think the pressure sensitive button, the analog trigger, and the light bulb will allow for more expressive control and feedback (e.g., grabbing a kid/friend's hand, preventing him from falling over a ledge, and then pull him up).

All these expressiveness are more than mere "precision". Whether Sony has an app that can demonstrate these benefits at launch is another question altogether.

 

[temesgen]

Why is it only a matter of money-hatting? Some people seems to have pretty limited views that it's cash-on-hand transactions alone that makes the world go round! Developers are going to have to invest time and effort into getting motion games up and running. If the future for a platform looks weak (EyeToy) then they won't bother much. If the future looks strong, they'll invest early on. If MS is presenting developers with a 5 year development plan, loads of tools and services and support, financial backing for multiple contracts over a 5 year period, and information about bundled peripherals and predictions of significant install bases, a developer will see Natal as a worthwhile investment with good chance of dividends, no? Whereas if MS offer Natal devkits and that's it, don't say anything about future plans, maybe bankroll a few launch titles but don't offer any long-term securities so the development of the launch title technologies may end up being binned if the platform flunks, and leave developers floundering around trying to learn how to apply the tech, are developers going to be enthusiastic, release quality titles and help the platform grow? I think not.

Hopefully the above illustrates the business sense and contributions a console company can make that go beyond just paying developers to make a title. Now I'm not in the industry so I don't know what MS and Sony are offering as backing for their motion controls initiatives to developers, but I will certainly listen to those who have ties with the industry if they say there's a big difference between how the platform holders are handling this.

Which is kinda the problem, no? PS3 will just be WiiHD, and sales of Wii titles aren't particularly great unless created by Nintendo. That is, if it weren't for Nintendo's first-party efforts, Wii would have failed because 3rd parties weren't creating the necessary titles to make it work at launch and in the early years.
That is perhaps Sony's saving grace. I don't know if Joker has heard about Sony's internal efforts or his perspective is coming only from how 3rd parties are being included/excluded in Move's vision. It could be there's enough 1st party diversity and sophistication to make Move work. However, what's shown so far isn't particularly encouraging. As Joker says, what has been shown to attract new customers that haven't bought PS360 or Wii yet, who will now get PS3 because of Move? Although IMO PS3's USP is "it only does everything" and adding motion controls will be another reason to tip the scale in PS3's favour, rather than needing a killer app. But still, it needs sufficient software for Move to be a worthwhile purchase. What has been shown so far hasn't been that wonderful.

I think this is a bit of a double standard here - if all if Wii's success is coming from internally designed software why does Sony have to attract 3rd parties? Sony arguably has the best 1st party developers already working on their platform. Furthermore I don't buy into the idea that motion controlled games have to offer unique and compelling experiences - that is counter to what is happening with the Wii. Wii is successful because it is a social gaming platform, people gather around the TV and play a ordinary games with low learning curves which allows everyone to interact on a level playing field. The interface is not a barrier to entertainment for anyone in the group. And again the design of Move facilitates easy ports of Wii titles to PS3 which expands the number of titles available on the system if you want to say that Move needs sufficient software.

 

[LightHeaven]

Well according to this website, based on their recent experience with Natal, it can track fingers.
http://translate.google.com/translate?js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=1&eotf=1&u=http://www.3djuegos.com/juegos/avances/5893/1911/0/project-natal/&sl=auto&tl=en

They've tested the same old ricochet demo with the same old natal prototype... So i guess they are just tripping

 

[Shifty Geezer]

I think this is a bit of a double standard here - if all if Wii's success is coming from internally designed software why does Sony have to attract 3rd parties?

Hang on! That wasn't my argument! I was advocating Joker's position and explaining how Sony could be being lacklustre in their approach to Move. I haven't said Move would fail or succeed based on 3rd party endeavours. I've always said it'll win/lose based on software. Where that software comes from doesn't much matter. If Sony throw out amazing 1st party titles, good for them. If they court 3rd parties and create a positive torrent of Move content, good for them.

Sony arguably has the best 1st party developers already working on their platform. Furthermore I don't buy into the idea that motion controlled games have to offer unique and compelling experiences - that is counter to what is happening with the Wii. Wii is successful because it is a social gaming platform, people gather around the TV and play a ordinary games...

Those games were unique. If Wii offered all the Wii titles only on a standard controller, wouldl it have succeeded?

And again the design of Move facilitates easy ports of Wii titles to PS3 which expands the number of titles available on the system if you want to say that Move needs sufficient software.

It's not just sufficient software, but differntiating. If PS3 offers the Wii experience, why buy a £300 PS3 when a £150 will offer the same, as well as being the brand for motion controls?
Sony's position here has to be, "why are people going to buy a PS3," and they need to be considering what is Move going to provide them in that respect. Which is the question to post to you and other advocates - why will people buy PS3 and Move? IMO it'll be because PS3 offers an all-in-one platform for entertainment, and Move won't necessarily have to differentiate from Wii in order to appeal. But there is a case that lack of differentiation will result in people sticking with the cheaper, more popular Wii, and some killer apps would help strengthen Move's position. Joker's position on this AFAICS is that any killer apps won't be coming from 3rd parties who see Move as pretty much still-born, and I suppose he doesn't see killer apps coming from their 1st parties either, but he'd have to comment on that (or not, if he doesn't care!).

To make my position clear, I'm not 'down' or 'up' on Move. I believe Sony have fumbled around. I believe they could make a success of it. I believe the probably have messed up 3rd parties instead of pulling them on board, and they may or may not have a decent lineup, although history suggests this'll be fairly weak.

 

[temesgen]

I think this is a bit of a double standard here - if all if Wii's success is coming from internally designed software why does Sony have to attract 3rd parties?[/qupte]

Hang on! That wasn't my argument! I was advocating Joker's position and explaining how Sony could be being lacklustre in their approach to Move. I haven't said Move would fail or succeed based on 3rd party endeavours. I've always said it'll win/lose based on software. Where that software comes from doesn't much matter. If Sony throw out amazing 1st party titles, good for them. If they court 3rd parties and create a positive torrent of Move content, good for them.

That clears things up -we agree here

Those games were unique. If Wii offered all the Wii titles only on a standard controller, wouldl it have succeeded? It's not just sufficient software, but differntiating. If PS3 offers the Wii experience, why buy a £300 PS3 when a £150 will offer the same, as well as being the brand for motion controls?

I think the argument Sony is settling on is cost - Blu Ray, hardcore gaming device and motion control device individually is more than what PS3 with Move will likely cost. I am sure more than a few families will be trying to decide between a younger kid who wants a Wii, a teenager who wants a 360/PS3 and a dad who wants a Blue Ray player. Not to mention the cost of supporting the migration in terms of software and hardware peripherals.

Sony's position here has to be, "why are people going to buy a PS3," and they need to be considering what is Move going to provide them in that respect. Which is the question to post to you and other advocates - why will people buy PS3 and Move? IMO it'll be because PS3 offers an all-in-one platform for entertainment, and Move won't necessarily have to differentiate from Wii in order to appeal. But there is a case that lack of differentiation will result in people sticking with the cheaper, more popular Wii, and some killer apps would help strengthen Move's position. Joker's position on this AFAICS is that any killer apps won't be coming from 3rd parties who see Move as pretty much still-born, and I suppose he doesn't see killer apps coming from their 1st parties either, but he'd have to comment on that (or not, if he doesn't care!).

I don't want to be seen as picking on Joker but this argument is hypocritical - we already know that 3rd parties are putting out shovelware on Wii and that all the compelling software is largely coming from Nintendo. Having said that most of this software is benefiting from well defined mascots and concepts that lend themselves to motion controls. We don't have new and unique compelling game play experiences driving Wii success - it is simple game play mechanics with high production values combined with leveraging established franchises in the case of Nintendo 1st party software which is driving sales.

To make my position clear, I'm not 'down' or 'up' on Move. I believe Sony have fumbled around. I believe they could make a success of it. I believe the probably have messed up 3rd parties instead of pulling them on board, and they may or may not have a decent lineup, although history suggests this'll be fairly weak.

We are in agreement again - I am not an advocate of Move or Natal for that matter. Generally speaking 1st party peripherals which fracture the base are a bad idea. I would like to see numbers on Wii Fit for comparison sake but there Nintendo capitalized on the emotional driven sales of fitness equipment and I wouldn't be surprised if a large number of Wii Fit boards are packed in the closet at this point. Adoption of Motion Plus is probably more relevant and it appears that Motion Plus hasn't really caught on. The point here being that a fitness application might help drive early adoption but in all likeliness the motion control add-ons won't be successful. But I do think that the easy portability of Wii titles to Move along with the additional value that the PS3 presents with Blu Ray mean PS3 specs out just as well as 360. IMO some people here are holding Sony to a higher standard that's all.

 

[Crossbar]

Those games were unique. If Wii offered all the Wii titles only on a standard controller, wouldl it have succeeded?
It's not just sufficient software, but differntiating. If PS3 offers the Wii experience, why buy a £300 PS3 when a £150 will offer the same, as well as being the brand for motion controls?

Indeed, the price of the PS3 will remain one of it´s strongest enemies. It may be one of the reasons why move was postponed to fall, there may be another price drop coming or they will just bundle Move at the current price point.

Sony's position here has to be, "why are people going to buy a PS3," and they need to be considering what is Move going to provide them in that respect. Which is the question to post to you and other advocates - why will people buy PS3 and Move? IMO it'll be because PS3 offers an all-in-one platform for entertainment, and Move won't necessarily have to differentiate from Wii in order to appeal. But there is a case that lack of differentiation will result in people sticking with the cheaper, more popular Wii, and some killer apps would help strengthen Move's position. Joker's position on this AFAICS is that any killer apps won't be coming from 3rd parties who see Move as pretty much still-born, and I suppose he doesn't see killer apps coming from their 1st parties either, but he'd have to comment on that (or not, if he doesn't care!).

To make my position clear, I'm not 'down' or 'up' on Move. I believe Sony have fumbled around. I believe they could make a success of it. I believe the probably have messed up 3rd parties instead of pulling them on board, and they may or may not have a decent lineup, although history suggests this'll be fairly weak.

I think it is pretty obvious that any third party support of Natal and Move dedicated games must be funded in some way because the install base of Natal and Move will be very small at launch. It will be a small chance to recoup the costs.
So where do you get most bang for the bucks if you want to have a decent line up of games when you launch. If you go to a third party they want you to pay a risk premium so they will not lose money if the game or the motion control flops. If you go to an internal studio you only risk the development cost and you will have all of the upside if the game is a hit.

Microsoft has few studios hence they will depend more on third parties than Sony who has a greater number of studios.

There is also the possibility that Sony is not aiming for a big flash bang introduction this year because they know they can not compete on price with the others. Maybe they will see it as more of slow burner this year building up a decent installed base of Move controllers and do another push next year when the PS3 is likely to close in on the magical $200 price range.

The fact that Move can easily be incorporated in ordinary games (when used with the DS3 or the sub controller) will also be a mean to attract Move buyers among the existing console owners and help build the installed base. Someone buys a games (e.g. SOCOM) and finds out that there are modes supported by Move and want to try it out, works like a kind of a Trojan horse.

Sony may want crossplatform developers to offer both the ordinary DS3 control scheme and the Wii control scheme in the PS3 version of the game. Of course they would like Sony to fund that in some way as well. Perhaps some developer could confirm if anything like that is taking place?

 

[patsu]

Wii is successful because it is a social gaming platform, people gather around the TV and play a ordinary games with low learning curves which allows everyone to interact on a level playing field. The interface is not a barrier to entertainment for anyone in the group.

I think it's more than that. The living room social gaming angle is indeed powerful. Nintendo was (still is) also smart in choosing and implement the right games for Wii's audience. WiiSports and WiiFit make day-to-day activities into a cute, relaxing and fun "vacation". The flagship titles are all rather relevant to an average person's life. No zombies, marines, mafia, aliens or intense competition is needed.

If you look at Sony's collection (The Shoot, Slider, Champions Online), they are mostly the same old gamer stuff. EyePet stood out because it's more like a Nintendo title in theme, but I don't know if it has the depth. A mistake is to think that casuals don't need depth. e.g., Afrika is a wonderful title, but it is rather shallow. Within a few minutes, my wife handed me the controller back and said the game is rather limited. I think Nintendo titles like WiiSport are very well made, and are able to hold consumers' attention despite Wiimote's technical limitations.

I had lunch with a Wii gamer friend yesterday. He mentioned that he enjoys the sports games on Wii very much. But he hasn't heard of Wiimote plus. ^_^

WiiSports alone was able to keep his family entertained and satisfied. So they won't go look for something better. However if someone show them Wiimote plus, PS Move or Natal, I'm sure they will be able to discern the differences. The challenge lies in how the vendors communicate and inspire the consumers. They need to be able to tell the differences before playing the game, even if it is a gimmicky move.

 

[Danalys]

I think initially some 3rd parties could get away with cheap to produce games that use the novelty of the new control methods to sell. The shoot for example I doubt costs much. Eyetoy games didn't cost much. There's loads of places to take these novel interfaces from for PS3 games. You can take controls from DS, Iphone and Wii games. All interfaces that have appealed to huge amounts of people already, but that can probably be enjoyed more with slicker presentation or on your big screen. That's not even counting the 3rd party games that can simply take the Wii version controls and add them to the HD version of those games as an option for little extra cost. Enough games like that and move becomes an interesting upgrade to experiences you would already play.

 

[patsu]

The platform holder can take that approach and let 3rd party developers define their new experiences in a haphazard way. It will have implications on how consumers perceive the effort. The most likely outcome is that it will become exactly like an "Also Ran", "Mii Too !", or failed peripheral experiment.

If done the proper way, the platform holder should define *tangible* benefits in a *uniform* user experience across titles. Changing the XMB is the "cheapest" way to start projecting that new experience. Introducing *consistent* elements into PS Move games will further extend that new experiences.

It's like that PrimeSense promo video... _if_ you could use PS Move/Eye on Blu-ray movies and games, it means a new natural interface era has arrived on Playstation.

EDIT: Sony keeps hinting that they will treat PS Move as a new platform, but I'm not seeing it from consumer perspective yet. If it's like their PS Home platform effort, I think they may want to save the money.

 

[scently]

Actually it is a newer demo of the said ricochet game. It was presented in Madrid a few days ago. Anyway here is a post from neogaf with more links.

It seems like Microsoft demoed a newer Natal and Ricochet build in Madrid a couple of days ago. There are three enthusiastic write ups here and here and here, using google translate unfortunately, and a brief video which only has a couple of seconds of screen time --

From their impressions they seem really impressed by it, also noting that it is also not the final version which will be seen at e3 2010. In one of the videos you can clearly see the guy using his fingers to grab what I will assume is the menu ball.
Please try not to spin this or compare.

Take it for what it is.

 

[Squilliam]

My suspicions about the Sony 1st parties potential success on Move really do stem around the fact that whilst they may make software which makes reviewers wet and horny, they don't make software which swings for the fences and cracks the 5-10M barriers respectively. They are completely different from Nintendo in that respect which makes me question their ability to release massively compelling system selling software for the Move when as far as I can tell they haven't published a new I.P. 5M+ selling game since the days of the PS1.

Their first party lack of massive sellout games are further compounded by the fact that they have much more expensive overall software development and it would be risky for them to pull their front line developers, Naughty Dogs etc of this world off their beaten and safe path to try to make Move games from the ground up. This leaves their 2nd and 3rd tier developers, the studios we don't hear about to bear the brunt. Considering like for like interfaces bringing your 2nd tier developers into a competitive and comparative contest against Nintendo's 1st tier developers is a poor recipe especially as after 4-5 years of development the Nintendo developers are onto their second and third generation games having learnt from mistakes that the Sony developers are only just discovering. It doesn't look good for Sony.

Their third party problem is not only that developers will be porting many of the same games to the Wii as the Move simply doesn't have the userbase, they cannot claim them for themselves. But also many developers are probably motion fatigued at this point as im sure behind the scenes there are numerous examples of games simply not working, not selling, games being cancelled because they couldn't get the interface to work properly etc. How are they going to snap third parties of of a 'wait and see' mindset in terms of committing their best design talent to the concept?

Their fourth problem is time. If they are quite successful with the Move, it'll still take at least a couple of years before they can build up a decent userbase. They are releasing Move in late 2010, so even if they are relatively more successful than optimistic projections here, theres nothing which stops Nintendo from saying sometime between 2011 and early 2013 "I want your clothes, your boots and your motorcycle" or roughly translated, console audience, 3rd party games and momentum. Nintendo coming into the next generation will have all the third party support they would want and they will be able to offer a whole new console with new controls for a price comparable to the price of adding Move to a PS3, so do they abandon the current generation with their control system still in its infancy or do they hold off and hope that Nintendo won't steal their lunch before they even get to school? A next generation Nintendo system will be technically formidable relative to the PS3 and when you have a large proportion of tech heads just waiting to jump on the next big thing, it can be a problem.

 

[eloic]

From their impressions they seem really impressed by it, also noting that it is also not the final version which will be seen at e3 2010. In one of the videos you can clearly see the guy using his fingers to grab what I will assume is the menu ball.

All the comments are very, very positive, indeed: high accuracy (the demo also reflects the speed/strenght of your moves) and a funny, promising experience, after all.

There's only a little complaint about a minimal lag, a bit more noticeable with two players on screen, but not even a problem, according to the source (the second link).

Still, Natal isn't that revolutionary, in my opinion. Motion controls without a controller and gesture recognition had a clear "pioneer" the last generation, which was the EyeToy. Sorry, if you find that I'm way too repetitive on this , but I can't stand how Microsoft shows off Natal as something "mind-blowingly revolutionary". Well, somehow it is... technically... but... oh, well... ¿¬_¬.

 

[scently]

All the comments are very, very positive, indeed: high accuracy (the demo also reflects the speed/strenght of your moves) and a funny, promising experience, after all.

There's only a little complaint about a minimal lag, a bit more noticeable with two players on screen, but not even a problem, according to the source (the second link).

Still, Natal isn't that revolutionary, in my opinion. Motion controls without a controller and gesture recognition had a clear "pioneer" the last generation, which was the EyeToy. Sorry, if you find that I'm way too repetitive on this , but I can't stand how Microsoft shows off Natal as something "mind-blowingly revolutionary". Well, somehow it is... technically... but... oh, well... ¿¬_¬.

The iphone and ipod are clearly pioneers.

 

[Danalys]

I know Nintendo's first party games have been massive sellers but the amount of individual games they've put out on the Wii, Sony could probably match just having each of their big developers produce one game each, creating as much of a platform from a 1st party perspective as Nintendo have. and this doesn't have to happen all in one year keeping the hardcore happy. Alot of franchises they have are coming to a natural stopping point anyway. They can always bundle a controller with the next big first party game that needs one.

They don't necessarily need to learn from making mistakes themselves. You can learn from other peoples mistakes aswell.

I think that assuming Nintendo can just come in with a new console and take their audience is like the expectations that the PS3 would just do aswell as the PS2.

 

[LightHeaven]

Actually it is a newer demo of the said ricochet game. It was presented in Madrid a few days ago. Anyway here is a post from neogaf with more links.


From their impressions they seem really impressed by it, also noting that it is also not the final version which will be seen at e3 2010. In one of the videos you can clearly see the guy using his fingers to grab what I will assume is the menu ball.
Please try not to spin this or compare.

Take it for what it is.

Holy crap

 

[eloic]

The iphone and ipod are clearly pioneers.

Ok, I'll tweak my post a little bit...

[...]Still, Natal isn't that revolutionary, in my opinion. Motion controls without a controller and gesture recognition, based on camera input, had a clear "pioneer" the last generation, which was the EyeToy. Sorry, if you find that I'm way too repetitive on this , but I can't stand how Microsoft shows off Natal as something "mind-blowingly revolutionary". Well, somehow it is... technically... but... oh, well... ¿¬_¬.

Better, now?

 

[scently]

Ok, I'll tweak my post a little bit...



Better, now?

No its not.

 

[eloic]

No its not.

Why?

Oh, and I'm referring to consoles. Could you tell me what console device/accessory is the pioneer in motion controls and gesture recognition through camera input, then?

 

[Squilliam]

I know Nintendo's first party games have been massive sellers but the amount of individual games they've put out on the Wii, Sony could probably match just having each of their big developers produce one game each, creating as much of a platform from a 1st party perspective as Nintendo have. and this doesn't have to happen all in one year keeping the hardcore happy. Alot of franchises they have are coming to a natural stopping point anyway. They can always bundle a controller with the next big first party game that needs one.

How exactly are Sony going to match the efforts of Nintendo when up to this date they haven't come close? Its not enough to simply say that the product is the equivalent, there have been many equivalents to Gran Turismo over the years and yet the Gran Turismo brand holds firm. However in the reverse there have been many more Zelda, Wii Sports, Wii Fit clones and none have yet to match the sales or the effectiveness in the market of the original Nintendo product. This is especially evident when the originals have burnt out all the excitement for the product range leaving very little market where the fore-runners have not trod.

They don't necessarily need to learn from making mistakes themselves. You can learn from other peoples mistakes aswell.

Wii Music was probably Nintendos biggest mistake, to prove they have made any others you'd need to assign your top flight developers to show how they haven't implemented their games as well as they could have. Its one thing to say that Wii Sports Tennis is flawed and limited, and its another thing to come in after and actually prove the case. Im not talking about metacritic aggregates, im talking about raw sales numbers.

I think that assuming Nintendo can just come in with a new console and take their audience is like the expectations that the PS3 would just do aswell as the PS2.

The PS3 could have taken their original audience and in many cases they had especially in Japan where they had over 50% attach rate for Final Fantasy XIII. However now the aura is broken the expectation that any series not made by Sony is open season for a next generation console now reigns. It takes two generations to truely break the back of an incumbant software house just as it took two generations for Nintendo to fall from the N64 to the Gamecube as the former still had market expectation on its side.

Its Nintendos battle to lose and not the other way around. All the third parties will give everything they have to ensure they aren't left behind on a next generation Nintendo home console. They would be foolish to not anticipate another home run as its the safest bet they can make ahead of time. Theres no reason to not expect that the Nintendo console for example in Japan will not be getting a full version Final Fantasy game or the next Call Of Duty.

 

[Danalys]

How exactly are Sony going to match the efforts of Nintendo when up to this date they haven't come close? Its not enough to simply say that the product is the equivalent, there have been many equivalents to Gran Turismo over the years and yet the Gran Turismo brand holds firm. However in the reverse there have been many more Zelda, Wii Sports, Wii Fit clones and none have yet to match the sales or the effectiveness in the market of the original Nintendo product. This is especially evident when the originals have burnt out all the excitement for the product range leaving very little market where the fore-runners have not trod.



Wii Music was probably Nintendos biggest mistake, to prove they have made any others you'd need to assign your top flight developers to show how they haven't implemented their games as well as they could have. Its one thing to say that Wii Sports Tennis is flawed and limited, and its another thing to come in after and actually prove the case. Im not talking about metacritic aggregates, im talking about raw sales numbers.



The PS3 could have taken their original audience and in many cases they had especially in Japan where they had over 50% attach rate for Final Fantasy XIII. However now the aura is broken the expectation that any series not made by Sony is open season for a next generation console now reigns. It takes two generations to truely break the back of an incumbant software house just as it took two generations for Nintendo to fall from the N64 to the Gamecube as the former still had market expectation on its side.

Its Nintendos battle to lose and not the other way around. All the third parties will give everything they have to ensure they aren't left behind on a next generation Nintendo home console. They would be foolish to not anticipate another home run as its the safest bet they can make ahead of time. Theres no reason to not expect that the Nintendo console for example in Japan will not be getting a full version Final Fantasy game or the next Call Of Duty.

Okay first of all I don't expect Sony's first parties to sell more than Nintendo. I'm just not writing them off as not helping establish move as a continuing part of the Playstation brand. there's the benefits of graphics, physics and stereoscopic 3D eventually which could show a difference that might have broader appeal.

I'm sorry I wasn't clear but I was talking about the mistakes of third parties when it came to motion controls, outside of pointing and sword fighting.

I'm not bothering to discuss hypothetical next gen strategies and if they'd work or not.