Old Discussion Thread for all 3 motion controllers

Status
Not open for further replies.
In other words, MS is money-hatting/greasing palms and Sony isn't? The reports of over 30 3rd party developers developing Move games aren't true? That sounds suspect.

Mod hat

There is no way we can know the financial details of the many deals going on behind the scenes.
This kinda of thinking / writing is very dangerous. I am not trying to single you out, but in two lines you have taken a hypothetical case for one scenario and then used that to question existing known information and honesty of one of the companies involved.
Whereas simply saying "I bet there is a lot of money being thrown about behind the scenes!" would have worked just as well :mrgreen:

As I said earlier, it's OK to speculate on the motivations and future outcomes, but I don't like people writing factually about specific details that we don't know anything about.


...

It's been interesting reading the replies here. Clearly people have very strong feelings :yes:.
ShadowRunner, I appreciate your honesty that you only care about yourself :p

The thing is, a lot of us post here because we are interested in the buisiness side of things - and ultimately it's the high risk, large plays that are the most interesting.

Going after small wins and incremental vicotories ultimately isn't good business practice. Sure, it's important, but it shouldn't be the driving factor behind product development and company direction. (Often the smaller pices are simply small parts in a larger strategic play).

This is why I find microsoft most interesting to watch. Of all three companies, they seem to have had the most consistent long term plan (with nintendo a close second).
At the end of this year, they will have a large number of factors aligning themselves. New console hardware, the biggest game release in history (potentially), a major new peripheral, and (I imagine) a number of new core software features will be rolled out too*.

Of course, when their plans don't work out - or are changed at the last minute - they stumble (and stumble most spectacularly). With the obvious knock on effects that entails. You can see this in aspects such as the removable hard drive (which, from what I recall, was rumored to be a cost cutting measure to compensate for doubling the system ram late in development - but that may be totally false).

*This is a total guess on my part, mainly due to the reasons they gave for recently cutting Live support on Xbox 1.


Whereas Sony appear to have / had a 'build it and they will come' attitude. The disconnected nature of their software is a particular sore spot for me.
And take it for what it's worth, but I'll also say I hear a lot of horror stories about Sony management changing their mind seemingly randomly - and most interestingly, a rumor that no Sony product ever dies - it is simply starved of funding and resources until it's important to management again.

...

Which brings on to motion control, where I (like joker) feel Natal is primarily a play to introduce new customers to the Xbox (and it's existing content pool - including hard core games!).

I see the argument about buttons being a barrier to adoption, but I feel it's missing the details: It's not a problem with buttons, it's a problem that corresponding a button to an action is a barrier to entry.
If you looked at a TV remote and all you saw was 'left, right, X, A, Square, Circle, etc', then you'd be totally stumped. Game controllers are an abstraction on an interface - an interface and abstraction gamers are mostly familiar with (I'll be honest and say I still get confused by the circle/X/square/triangle thing almost every time there is an on screen prompt).


The wii was successful because it did a brilliant job of slowly introducing users to these interfaces and abstractions. Anyone could pick it up and see it had buttons - but that doesn't for a second mean anyone could pick it up and instinctively know 'A' equates to 'punch' and 'B' means 'hook', etc.

However, if that person was then shown that physically jabbing the controller in a punch motion performed a punch, well! that's the abstraction gone!

Wii sports and Wii play were brilliant because each game introduced a single level of abstraction. Wii Tennis used a button to lob, bowling used that button to release and also used the Dpad to move left/right. Etc etc.


But the interesting thing to pick out, is that this control scheme still required someone else with more experience to be there to introduce them. Even with the Wii there is a very low chance of an individual totally unfamiliar with games self discovering the system. Think of the in store kiosk example.

I know I've mentioned it before, but I had this experience hammered home to me when I watched my flatmate pickup a wiimote in an electronics store. He got totally confused and put it down. I had to show him that you used a punch motion to punch. There was no way he could have discovered it himself. He then used that single motion to explore the game. Given time he'd have probably discovered new motions, and then slowly discovered abstractions - but only once he was comfortable, and only in his own time.


This is where Natal really interests me, it potentially kills those abstractions and most importantly it is potentially a self discoverable interface - where you already know the natural limits and capabilities, because they what we are already most familiar with - your own body.

Given that, it's a matter of time until the used discovers speech, where they explore it's capabilities. They have fun.
Then they discover simple arcade games which (*shock, horror*) require a couple of buttons on the gamepad! That takes a few weeks of adjustment.
Until finally, 6 months later, they are buying 'hardcore' games like the rest of us. Although they only play them on Easy.

This - in my opinion - is why the Wii is so successful. Yet there is still a *simply massive* market out there. Gaming could easily be 10x the market it is today. It's all about getting over those first few hurdles. That is why Natal interests me.

Of course, it could be a total disaster as well. :mrgreen:
 
But the interesting thing to pick out, is that this control scheme still required someone else to be there to introduce them. Even with the Wii there is a very low chance of an individual totally unfamiliar with games self discovering the system. Think of the in store kiosk example.

I've mentioned it before, but I had this experience hammered home to me when I watched my flatmate pickup a wiimote in an electronics store. He got totally confused and put it down. I had to show him that you used a punch motion to punch, he then used that single motion to explore the game. Given time he'd have explored new motions, and then abstractions - but only once he was comfortable, and only in his own time.

All he needed was a video showing someone using a Wiimote (e.g., WiiSport). Then the rest is "Monkey see, monkey do". This is similar to seeing the first iPhone ad where the user "pinches" to pick stuff up, or uses his thumb and index finger to scale a picture.

The problem you described may have more to do with Game UI and context issues. Having a controller-free interface doesn't take the problem away. It means we need an intuitive UI.
 
That is true, but you still need to pick up the controller. And to do that, you need to actively be interested in the product - to be seeking it out or to be shown it.
I'd hazard a guess that most people who aren't interested in games would never dream of doing that - yet if their discovery of the interface could happen naturally, without existing desire (unintended discovery, so to speak) then that opens up a world of marketing possibilities.

But yes, totally correct, the interface is still the core problem. Natal has a massive challenge of making a competent and intuative interface from your body motions. I'm under no illusions that it won't fail spectacularly - and if it does, it'll probably come down to this area.
 
If the offering is relevant and also inspires the user, then he or she will be compelled to try it. In this manner, I think a controller-free interface would wow them more since they may not have seen such interface before. Many already know what Wii does.

I think it's the overall idea, concept and packaging that counts the most.

If the person sees the EyePet monkey-dog sing along with another gamer, and recognize his drawing, then it is likely that he would want to test it out himself (EyePet is played with PS Move and bare hands).
 
I think that's where people are underestimating the value of the usual gamer. Nintendo has a ton of people who will buy the Nintendo console just because that's where the next Mario, or Metroid or Zelda will show up. They're early adopters, they're evangelists. I'm not even talking about just the crazies who buy everything, there's less intense notches on the Nintendo fan-spectrum.

Sony and MS, though, since they're selling accessories, they need to work extra hard to get those core people. They need to convince the a portion of their core audience to become evangelists for their accessories. Some people will do that regardless -- some people are already evangelizing these products without having played a single retail game on them.
 
I think the move controller has way too many buttons, all it needs is the trigger, the move button and PS button. no need for select, start, and the square triangle circle x buttons...

Having 8 buttons will still intimidate the consumer.


Guess which one is more popular:
bhktvcknapzpav96qbkwf7lao1_500.jpg

It's strange you would complain of the Move controller's complexity while pointing out the Apple Remote for its simplicity, considering they have the same number of buttons on their faces (less than the Wii Remote in fact, which has been embraced by everyone from toddlers to the elderly). I think the Move Controller has a pretty good layout, there are just a couple things that could be changed about it to maximize user-friendliness.

1. Instead of its elongated center button and square layout of the four smaller face buttons, they could have gone with a diamond pattern similar to the four-directional-and-OK-button cluster on the 360 remote (and for that matter most modern remotes). This would afford easy reach of all five buttons, while enabling intuitive use of directional mapping for certain controls, like lining up a shot with the left and right buttons in a bowling game, or assigning the zoom-in function to the up button in an FPS. Also, on-screen prompts would be less confusing if each button's symbol directly correlated to its direction, instead of being arbitrary like the current square, circle, etc.

2. The start and select buttons are kind of awkwardly placed on the sides, and for that matter, the select button is a bit of a relic, mostly used these days as a secondary pause/menu access button, bringing up a map or the like, which could easily be integrated into the main pause menu structure. They could have just moved the home button down a bit and put a small button there with a two-vertical-bar pause symbol on it, everybody understands that these days.

Both these things are probably the way they are because Sony wants to make the controls seem more familiar to its core users, but considering they want to appeal to new audiences, I think they should have reconsidered that. The only other reason I can think of is that the Move controller will actually let you play standard PS3 games on it, but that really doesn't seem likely, especially since it lacks a second analog stick.
 
1. Instead of its elongated center button and square layout of the four smaller face buttons, they could have gone with a diamond pattern similar to the four-directional-and-OK-button cluster on the 360 remote (and for that matter most modern remotes). This would afford easy reach of all five buttons, while enabling intuitive use of directional mapping for certain controls, like lining up a shot with the left and right buttons in a bowling game, or assigning the zoom-in function to the up button in an FPS. Also, on-screen prompts would be less confusing if each button's symbol directly correlated to its direction, instead of being arbitrary like the current square, circle, etc.

Yap ! I was wondering why Sony didn't do this too. It's more intuitive and natural to have the 4 geometry buttons in diamond layout (like DualShock). Or even one giant diamond button.
 
But yes, totally correct, the interface is still the core problem. Natal has a massive challenge of making a competent and intuative interface from your body motions.

Right on. It isn't all about buzzwords or "magical" technology automatically solving every interface problem, it's about recognizing the strengths and weaknesses of each technology and using it appropriately. The whole reason motion controls are more intuitive and have less of a learning curve than buttons is because they rely on the existing abilities and knowledge you've gained in the real world, and they can be more fun because they make you feel more directly involved in the game.

If gestures are merely abstract, they're not only no better than buttons, in some ways they're worse, because they're less precise and direct, and may require more conscious thought than just jamming a button.

For some examples, as everyone knows, no hands-free shooting game will ever be as good as it could be if you had a trigger to work with, and no sport that would in real life use a bat, racket, or club will be as good hands-free as it would with something to hold onto (and before somebody replies that you could just use a real bat, racket, or club, just think of the damage people could do to their living rooms -or worse, friends- by swinging these things in a confined space). Also, (semi) intuitive character movement will be tricky because shifting one's body position won't be as precise as a thumb control, and you'll have to be standing and shifting around the whole time you play, which would get tiring quick. By the same token, jump controls will have issues, because you're basically going to have to actually jump or feign jumping (which would get old real fast) or swipe your hand up in the air, which again, would be fairly imprecise and not very intuitive.

Those are just some specific cases, though. Hands-free motion tracking has its uses, and I'm sure developers will find lots of possibilities for it, but they'll have to tailor software to its specific strengths, because by its nature it's got some pretty pronounced limitations.
 
Not that you can reply for a while, but what Joker is talking about is the overall support and motivation given to developers. By his example, MS are courting developers and encouraging them to create specific Natal titles, whereas Sony aren't. This isn't the sort of backroom chat that'd bubble to the surface en masse. And given Sony's prior, there's every reason to believe Joker and that there's history of Move being delayed (and come on, we know they've had motion experiments for years!), sidelined, and just plomped in front of developers with little push and no long-term vision for developers to get behind.


With all the crossover potential between Move and Wii isn't it reasonable to expect Sony to get access to developers who will simply port their Wii titles to PS3? Why does Sony have to convince developer to take risk and do something new and unique beyond games with motion controls? Also Sony has a very mature first party team of developers who can certainly find ways to do unique and interesting things with Move not that it matters, motion controlled gaming in and of itself IMO isn't really driving Wii sales to begin with.

TBH I think it is a misnomer to define gamers as causal or hardcore; IMO the appeal that Wii has tapped into is the localized social gaming - family and friends sitting around and gaming in the context of a larger get together. with the key being that the gaming is simple enough that everyone can play and not be intimidated by the learning curve. TO the 360's credit MS has done and excellent job of tapping into non-localized social gaming by way of Live. The challenge for MS will be how to incorporate that localized vibe into Natal. Alternatively if MS can figure out how to have Modern Warfare and Halo 3 clans play natal baseball or volleyball online as an example MS will be well on their way to establishing legs for their peripheral. Sony will have bigger challenges with Move due the added complexity of not having an online platform which is as mature as Live to tap into and leverage for adoption. I think there is a good chance we will a lot of hardcore gamers say they opted for Natal over Move this next year because they want to play games on Live with their friends.
 
Yap ! I was wondering why Sony didn't do this too. It's more intuitive and natural to have the 4 geometry buttons in diamond layout (like DualShock). Or even one giant diamond button.

It´s probably an ergonomical decision. The action button is rather big. A button above and a button below the action button would be rather awkward to reach for a small hand. It´s easier to slide the thumb to the right or left side with just a slight offset in height.

One giant diamond button may be har do to handle when waggling the wand, it may cause to many unintentional button pressures.
 
Yap ! I was wondering why Sony didn't do this too. It's more intuitive and natural to have the 4 geometry buttons in diamond layout (like DualShock). Or even one giant diamond button.

I think it's a simple matter of physics. You'll be using your thumb for pressing these buttons, and your thumb has a relatively poor vertical range, but excellent horizontal range. This shape makes better use of the thumbs range than a diamond shape ever could, especially with the pressure sensitive front button being rectangular in shape.

EDIT: beaten. :D
 
It´s probably an ergonomical decision. The action button is rather big. A button above and a button below the action button would be rather awkward to reach for a small hand. It´s easier to slide the thumb to the right or left side with just a slight offset in height.

One giant diamond button may be har do to handle when waggling the wand, it may cause to many unintentional button pressures.
Yes, and if the buttons were on diamond shape around the action buttons, the X button would be too easy to push accidentally when you rest your thumb on the big action button.
The Sony Blu-ray remote has those buttons similarily laid out, and after a bit of getting used to it's just fine.
 
In other words, MS is money-hatting/greasing palms and Sony isn't? The reports of over 30 3rd party developers developing Move games aren't true? That sounds suspect.
Why is it only a matter of money-hatting? Some people seems to have pretty limited views that it's cash-on-hand transactions alone that makes the world go round! Developers are going to have to invest time and effort into getting motion games up and running. If the future for a platform looks weak (EyeToy) then they won't bother much. If the future looks strong, they'll invest early on. If MS is presenting developers with a 5 year development plan, loads of tools and services and support, financial backing for multiple contracts over a 5 year period, and information about bundled peripherals and predictions of significant install bases, a developer will see Natal as a worthwhile investment with good chance of dividends, no? Whereas if MS offer Natal devkits and that's it, don't say anything about future plans, maybe bankroll a few launch titles but don't offer any long-term securities so the development of the launch title technologies may end up being binned if the platform flunks, and leave developers floundering around trying to learn how to apply the tech, are developers going to be enthusiastic, release quality titles and help the platform grow? I think not.

Hopefully the above illustrates the business sense and contributions a console company can make that go beyond just paying developers to make a title. Now I'm not in the industry so I don't know what MS and Sony are offering as backing for their motion controls initiatives to developers, but I will certainly listen to those who have ties with the industry if they say there's a big difference between how the platform holders are handling this.

With all the crossover potential between Move and Wii isn't it reasonable to expect Sony to get access to developers who will simply port their Wii titles to PS3?
Which is kinda the problem, no? PS3 will just be WiiHD, and sales of Wii titles aren't particularly great unless created by Nintendo. That is, if it weren't for Nintendo's first-party efforts, Wii would have failed because 3rd parties weren't creating the necessary titles to make it work at launch and in the early years.
Also Sony has a very mature first party team of developers who can certainly find ways to do unique and interesting things with Move not that it matters
That is perhaps Sony's saving grace. I don't know if Joker has heard about Sony's internal efforts or his perspective is coming only from how 3rd parties are being included/excluded in Move's vision. It could be there's enough 1st party diversity and sophistication to make Move work. However, what's shown so far isn't particularly encouraging. As Joker says, what has been shown to attract new customers that haven't bought PS360 or Wii yet, who will now get PS3 because of Move? Although IMO PS3's USP is "it only does everything" and adding motion controls will be another reason to tip the scale in PS3's favour, rather than needing a killer app. But still, it needs sufficient software for Move to be a worthwhile purchase. What has been shown so far hasn't been that wonderful.
 
I wonder if joker or anyone else can elaborate on the rumours we have heard about Natals support from developers. I remember reading that support for the device had dropped, i think around the time the news of the processing being moved to 360, apparently many projects were being scaled back and budgets were being cut significantly. Think it was said on 1up podcast and repeated in a few articles (probably based on the 1up guys comments knowing how the media works), cant seam to find the articles though im no good at google hehe.

I appreciate the insider comments we have had about the issue of support. While i have no trouble believing Sony is going about its buisness in a half-assed fashion i can also see why people would take it with a pinch of salt. It kind of flies in the face of everything we have seen ourselves as outsiders with actual games being announced for move and exclusives like tiger woods and the next EA sports Active. As outsiders we have seen the opposite so if jokers comments do reflect the actual state of things it certainly looks like the total opposite from the outside, and also from what we have heard from other 'insiders'.
 
It´s probably an ergonomical decision. The action button is rather big. A button above and a button below the action button would be rather awkward to reach for a small hand. It´s easier to slide the thumb to the right or left side with just a slight offset in height.

That's basically because Sony chose to make the central button elongated. It didn't have to be that way. The main action button on the Wii is round and it works fine (though maybe that's part of the reason why it's oblong, it doesn't seem quite as much of a Wiimote copy that way).

I think it's a simple matter of physics. You'll be using your thumb for pressing these buttons, and your thumb has a relatively poor vertical range, but excellent horizontal range. This shape makes better use of the thumbs range than a diamond shape ever could, especially with the pressure sensitive front button being rectangular in shape.

You're right, a diamond pattern wouldn't be that great with an elongated central button, but that's not what I was suggesting. Also, it's true that your thumb has better horizontal range than vertical, but that isn't so much the question as whether or not its vertical range is good enough. I haven't heard people complaining about the Triangle and X buttons on the Dual Shock being too far for their thumbs to reach (about 1.3 inches in total height), and you could get a slightly enlarged central button with 4 slimmer oval buttons around it in the same height or just a touch more.

if the buttons were on diamond shape around the action buttons, the X button would be too easy to push accidentally when you rest your thumb on the big action button.

Okay, that seems a legitimate concern, but it could be minimized, both by having you grip the controller so that the tip of your thumb, instead of its bulk, rests on the central button, and by not making the four smaller buttons stick up too high.
 
That's basically because Sony chose to make the central button elongated. It didn't have to be that way. The main action button on the Wii is round and it works fine (though maybe that's part of the reason why it's oblong, it doesn't seem quite as much of a Wiimote copy that way).

Yes that is probably a consequence of that Sony didn´t opt to make Move look like a remote.

Nintendo choose the look of a remote to lower the threshold of new gamers, probably a wise choice at the time. With a light bulb in the end Move wouldn´t look like a remote anyways and now as motion gaming has been well establised the barriers have pretty much been removed, so why not make it more appropiate for swinging around, like the handle of a tennis racket?

To get a firm grip you probably want to be able to rest your thumb against the wand without pressing any buttons, hence no button below the action button.
 
Suzy Casual...
Somehow sounds like a hot chick...may I ask for her address or phone number :mrgreen:

I completely agree with Joker that the potential of Natal is much higher compared to Move!
I mean, Natal has the potential of being unique...Move obviously don't...and I think that uniqueness is rather good for marketing a product ;)

But, and this is my honest opinion (which seems to be unique across this forum), I hope that these motion controller+3D mambo jumbo stuff dies a fast and terrible death.
Both, MS and Sony, should better spend the money for making "standard" AAA games!
 
To get a firm grip you probably want to be able to rest your thumb against the wand without pressing any buttons, hence no button below the action button.

I think a lot of people are completely overlooking the pressure sensitive buttons on the back and front of the controller (the pressure pad and the trigger). If you look at the 'puppet' demo, these are what allow a user to control the opening and closing of the hand.

The combination of precise 3D tracking, rumble and these two pressure sensitive buttons are very important.

I also expect the light-bulb functionality to appeal to casuals more than expected.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top