Official PS3 Thread

[Phil]

holy cow! Give me this kind of graphics on PS3 and I'll be reaaallly happy!!!!!

Actually, looking at those screens and the memories while playing FFX, IMO FFX has the best characters/design ever in a game. Wow, can't wait until FFX-2 comes out here in Europe......

 

[megadrive0088]

I had not seen pictures of the Warcraft III CG until now.

think PS3 could do these?

 

[zurich]

I'd like to see this type of quality show up in next gen, launch software. I'd also like to see in-game characters as well dressed at this too

 

[jvd]

Just found out that saving nemo took 3 years and a 180 artists ... wow ... i wonder what tech they used for rendering. If this is the normal time to market for the tv moves i dunno if we are going to see that quality in games for a very long time .

 

[Deepak]

Link

Sony to combine PlayStation and group chip operations
By Tony Smith
Posted: 07/05/2003 at 09:35 GMT

Sony is to unify its diverse chip development and production operations into a single business in a bid to turn the company into a semiconductor powerhouse.

The new business' first offering will be a combination of the PlayStation 2's Emotion Engine CPU and the console's graphics processor on a single 53.5 million transistor chip, according to an EE Times interview with the operation's chief, Ken Kutaragi.

Kutaragi is, of course, the guy who spearheaded the development of Sony's original PlayStation and that console's successor. Today, he's the big cheese at Sony Computer Entertainment and one of the company's key players. SCE has long established its own chip development strategies and staff, many of whom are now working on the Cell chip in co-operation with IBM and Toshiba, Sony's long-time LSI fabrication partner.

Kutaragi has effectively pulled Sony's other semiconductor operations into that SCE framework. The goal is to allow Sony to develop the leading-edge chip solutions it needs going forward more cheaply than if the group's various member companies maintain their own semiconductor operations. Amortising costs this way should make it more cost-effective to invest in more advanced process technology.

Indeed, Sony intended to invest ¥200 billion ($1.7 billion) developing a 65nm process and building a 300mm wafer fab. The next-generation PlayStation 2 part, dubbed the EE+GS@90nm, will as its name suggests be fabbed at 90nm.

Such a part will also provide Sony's PlayStation 3 with cheap PS2 backwards compatibility.

Advanced process technology will be used as a differentiator to sell Sony-developed chips to other companies. Again, that's about reducing the cost to Sony's own businesses, including its Broadband Networks Company (BBNC), which will soon announce a machine based the EE+GS@90nm.

It's also about widening the company's chip development horizons. Having to cater for other group companies' and third-party needs should ensure development doesn't become too tightly focused on the requirements of the PlayStation business. Competing in the open market may further stimulate innovation.

The move comes hot on the heels of Sony's 24 April announcement of lower-than-expected earnings for its most recent fiscal year. Its ¥115.5 billion ($948 million) net profit was better than that previous year's, but still more than 33 per cent lower than Sony had forecast, thanks to a ¥111 billion Q4 loss driven by a 12 per cent drop in sales.

It's no wonder that controlling costs without losing technology leadership is at the forefront of Sony executives' minds.

Sony's troubles arise from its consumer electronics business. Kutaragi's plan to unify chip development is geared toward the development of a broader range of applications from a smaller number of platforms. That may help increase margins in the consumer electronics division - now under one per cent - but more importantly it will help Sony develop new consumer applications and devices to reduce its reliance on and perhaps ultimately replace traditional consumer electronics kit. ®

 

[Deepak]

Link

Sony shifts semiconductor strategy
Yoshika Hara, 6-May-2003

Sony is drastically revamping its semiconductor strategy: It will combine the chip operations of its headquarters with those of Sony Computer Entertainment Inc., then take the devices developed by the latter unit for the company's popular Playstation 2 game console and steer them toward a wide range of consumer electronics applications.

The company said it will also develop applications for the Cell processor that Sony is jointly developing with IBM Corp. and Toshiba Corp.

In charge of the overhaul is Ken Kutaragi, president and chief executive officer of Sony Computer Entertainment, who was recently named executive deputy vice president of Sony's main office overseeing the Broadband Network Co. (BBNC), an internal company. The broadband operation will play a key role as incubator for next-generation products based on Sony semiconductors, such as TVs, servers and consumer products.

“We will create as many applications as possible for leading-edge semiconductors,” Kutaragi told EE Times this week. “Our foundation will be the semiconductor business, which will foster new applications for volume platforms like Playstation 2. We need volume.”

The semiconductor operations of Sony Computer Entertainment had been relatively independent from the corporate parent's semiconductor business. The first-generation Playstation used ASICs supplied by LSI Logic Corp., for example. Sony Computer Entertainment built the core engines of Playstation 2—the Emotion Engine processor and high-end Graphics Synthesizer—at a fab jointly owned with Toshiba and its own Nagasaki fabs, respectively.

All that is about to change. Sony and Sony Computer Entertainment have announced plans to invest ¥200 billion (US$1.7 billion) to develop 65-nanometer process technology and construct a 300-mm wafer fabrication facility. The companies simultaneously announced they have integrated the Emotion Engine and Graphics Synthesizer into a single chip with 53.5 million transistors built in a 90-nm process. The product, which Sony calls EE+GS@90nm, is set to begin volume production.

Under Kutaragi's plan, the EE+GS@ 90nm will first be used in other Sony consumer products, and then introduced on the merchant market. The first nongame applications will emerge three years after the Emotion Engine and Graphics Synthesizer first appeared in the Playstation 2. The Cell processor, however, will be available for wider use in other applications from the start, even as it serves as the core engine for Sony's next-generation gaming system, often called Playstation 3. Within about a month, Sony says it will announce a new application that BBNC has developed for the EE+GS@90nm.

Satoru Rick Oyama, senior vice president of Lehman Brothers Japan, applauded the push to find new appli- cations for the game console chips. “If the devices are used only in the closed Playstation world, the technology would not evolve,” he said.

The yield rate of Sony's semiconductor production will be hard to match, bolstered by the EE+GS@90nm's high-volume production for the Playstation 2, Kutaragi said. “This highly efficient technology is waiting for immediate use,” he said. “The next-generation Playstation will probably take the form of a game box, though it will not be a mere game machine.”

“I am very much interested in how Sony will promote PS3 as a new product for the home, because it will not be a simple game machine,” said Lehman Brothers analyst Oyama.

This story first appeared in EE Times, a US-based CMP publication.

 

[zurich]

Perhaps by 2005, the EE&GS@90nm will be so cheap that they can use it as an IO controller, with ofcourse the added benefit of backwards compatibility with PS2 games

 

[Paul]

Such a part will also provide Sony's PlayStation 3 with cheap PS2 backwards compatibility.

Ive been saying it since the whole EE+GS on one chip fiasco, this is the first step towards a backwards compatable ps3!

And the author of this article seems to think so as well.

 

[Paul]

What do you guys think we will hear about PS3 at E3? Maybe Sony will talk about it a little?

 

[megadrive0088]

Actually I expect nothing from Sony on PS3. its too early. this is like E3 1998 as far as PS3 information goes. there was no PS2info at E3 1998. it would not be until Jan or Feb of 1999 that we got any hint of PS2 info. (Emotion Engine at a microprocessor conference) with the technology being introduced in March 1999.

so we should get some info on PS3 in early 2004

 

[archie4oz]

i wonder what tech they used for rendering.

What do you mean? Software? Hardware? They have been in been in the progress of migrating their renderfarm though... (and moving their production pipeline to Linux)

If this is the normal time to market for the tv moves i dunno if we are going to see that quality in games for a very long time .

Depends on the game... Character complexity, scene complexity, number of active objects, game duration, the level of automation of your content tools, etc... A lot of variables to consider...

 

[London Geezer]

Perhaps by 2005, the EE&GS@90nm will be so cheap that they can use it as an IO controller, with ofcourse the added benefit of backwards compatibility with PS2 games

I don't think that the *only* added benefit of a chip that can move around some 75 million polys RAW and 20 million in game is backward compatibility...

i know that in the next gen those 75-20 million polygons will sound much like the 300.000 polygons ps1 pushes compared to what ps2 pushes... but what the heck.....

 

[megadrive0088]

the PSX didn't even push 300,000 textured polys.

if I recall PSX pushed upto 360,000 flat shaded polys/sec and something like 120,000-180,000 textured, lit, guraud shaded polys. remember, Sega's Model 2, which was more powerful than PSX, pushed 300,000 textured polys

Sony's figures of 500,000 flat shaded, 360,000 textured is pure paper spec like PS2's 66 million

 

[Crazyace]

PSX could push 300,00 textured polys...
The GPU was specced at lower, in terms of rasterising forward facing polys.. but the GTE/CPU could transform and backface cull faster....

 

[megadrive0088]

I have no doubt the CPU+GTE could computate those amount of polys. thats not hard. but as far as getting that rasterized, the GPU couldn't display that much, where as Sega Model 2 could.

yes, of course, PSX was $300 at launch, Model 2 was several thousand dollars

 

[Sonic]

Few corrections. Some people knew about EE before it was announced at the trade show, specifically people from DCTP at the time.

Also, Model 2 could push more than 300,000 textured polys. Sega Rally is a game that demonstrates just that.

 

[megadrive0088]

where did you hear Model 2 pushed more than 300k polys?
why is Sega Rally an example? just curious I know Model 2 used four sided rectangle polygons so that is worth more than PSX's three sided triangles

 

[Paul]

I guess Sony and the crew will announce the specs of Cell at some trade show and than once again go "not for ps3" and have the whole audience play along

 

[Sonic]

I heard it from within the walls of SEGA itself. There were different revisions of Model 2 and you may be thinking of a very early revision only pushing 300k a sec. But I do consider my sources within SEGA pretty darn reliable.

 

[a4164]

where did you hear Model 2 pushed more than 300k polys?
why is Sega Rally an example? just curious

Ah yes, the mystery of the Model 2. There are 4 versions of Model 2 that I can remember.

Model 2
Model 2A CRX
Model 2B CRX
Model 2C CRX

There was a noticable increase in detail in the games made for Model 2A-C over the original Model 2.

Just look at Model 2's Daytona or Virtua Cop vs Model 2A's Sega Rally Championship, Virtua Cop 2, Virtua Fighter 2, Dead or Alive, or Manx TT. There was a very nice boost in graphics although I always associated that with Sega learning the hardware. (Tecmo's game excluded from theory)

Across the revisions, Sega holds the specs at 300,000 polygons/sec. I do believe each revision used a different Fujitsu Co-processor. I think the Model 2B CRX didn't even use a Fujitsu chip. Each revision also listed the FPU performance at 16 MFLOPS.

However, the fill-rate listed for Model 2 went from 1,200,000 pixels/sec to 2,000,000 pixels/frame (60 frames/sec) for Model 2B and 2C which would leave one to believe that they did in fact boost performance across the revisions.

Finally, Sonic, is the game you are refering to Sega Touring Car Championship or House of The Dead. I always thought those were the best looking of the Model 2 games, easily pushing more than 300,000 polygons/sec, naturally it used the last revision: Model 2C.

Just to break it down here are the highlights per Model 2 revision:

Model 2: Daytona USA, Virtua Cop
Model 2A: Dead or Alive, Sega Rally Championship, Virtua Cop 2, Virtua Fighter 2, Manx TT
Model 2B (cost cutting revision? non-Fujitsu chip?): Dead or Alive, Fighting Vipers, Last Bronx, Indy 500, Gun Blade NY, Virtual On
Model 2C: Sega Touring Car Championship, House of the Dead, Top Skater

I miss Sega of old. Sonic tell Sega to start making more arcade games. I demand a Scud Race/Super GT port and/or sequel. Also, Sega Rally 3, where is it?

Edit: Ok here is what I believe happened:

Model 2: Single Fujitsu Co-Processor (MB86234)
Model 2A: Multiple Fujitsu Co-Processors (MB86234)
Model 2B: Non-Fujitsu Multiple Co-Processors (Analog Devices SHARC?) fewer than Model 2A and cheaper
Model 2C: New revision Fujitsu Co-Processor (MB86235) in multiple config. higher performance than previous Model 2s. Model 2C saw new releases in arcades even after the mighty Model 3 debuted.

So there you go. Yes, Model 2 did push more than 300,000 polygons/sec in later revisions. Now Model 3 Step 1.0 , 1.5 , 2.0 , 2.1 .... that is another tale [/me exits with Conan theme]