Offical blueray and other large format storage. thread

[zurich]

The nv30 went into production in january and its yields still have no improved.

The NV30 was discontinued a while ago. It was limited to 100k units. Though they share the same fundamental architecture, NV30 != NV31, NV34, NV35.

Intel never improved yields on the 1.13 p3. They scraped it and thats it. They went on to the next chip.

Negatory.. first off, the P6 COPPERMINE processor died at 1.13ghz, the P6 Tualatin went on to hit 1.3ghz w/512k of cache. Secondly, the P6 in general was some 8 years old at that time, its amazing they stretched it as far as it went. Thirdly, ofcourse they killed the P3, the P4 was right around the corner. (The Tualatin .13 yields were actually quite good)

Intel is going to sell ms ithium 2 chips really cheap so that they get a huge installed base . Yea the ithium chip doesn't cost what they are selling it for so of course they can put it in a 300 dollar system. How is that for dynamic .

Huh? 1) I guess you meant Itanium, 2) Why would they sell it to MS? There's no way they'll be in the Xbox, heat, power consumption, bitch to code for, fact that its an ENTERPRISE-class server chip.. 3) Considering how HUGE the Itanium is, plus the miniscule fab space Intel is devoting to it (in comparison to their volume parts), its actually decently expensive to fab. I'm sure their profit margins on it are huge (for those that'll actually buy them heh), but Intel would rather die then sell them to MS for anything under 300 a pop. It just doesn't make any sense... how did you come to the conclusion that MS would be buying cheap Itaniums from Intel for Xbox2?

Actually i picked 500 since the xbox cost 580 at launch

2001 was a while ago, but IIRC it was more like $450 to make (150 loss).

They wont put in a chip because some day it might be cheap enough . They put in a chip that is already in the budget knowing that it will one day be the reason the system will be able to sell at 150 or 100$ with out loosing money. You should know this . You nkow why sony is in this market. Its to make money. But once again they are in the video game market. The console market. So at the end of the day it has to sell to video game buyers. Not home movie fanatics. Everyone on this board knows that 300 is the magic price point. Sony knows they can't outspend ms . They also don't need to. So they will stay close to that magic 300$ number (with the ps2 i think at launch it cost 410$ to make ) THus they can sustain a price war with ms .

You forget that for the PS3, minus the ram from Epilda, Sony will control and internally produce virtually every piece of equipment that'll go in the console.. I'm sure they have a very good idea as to how much the parts will cost 4-5 years down the road. Unlike MS who has to contractually outsource parts, Sony controls the cost of components for their system from start to finish.

Now please no more huge posts .

But it's B3D-Tradition!

 

[Phil]

jvd:

Heh. I have no doubt ms entered the console industry to make money. But guess what the entered the console industry. So first and for most they need to make a video game system. So at the end of the day if the system is not in budget then they will cut out all the non console parts. So at the end of the day if that hardrive was to expensive they would have canned it. So that they could put out the video game system.

Remember console market. Remeber console market. Got that ? Mabye you should repeat that more.

I'll let Vince reply to this, as he's best of explaining it (if he bothers with you, that is). All I can say is, if everyone would apply that logic, then we'd still have a Nintendo sytle 'game-only' system in a market that hardly expanded. Perhaps you should stop concentrating on just the game-industry and look beyond that to understand what Vince and others on this very same forum have been outlining and speculating over the past few months, if not years already.

 

[Panajev2001a]

Just a question, what has anything PS3 so far, links it to Grid computin? I dont know but putting a few Cells in PS3 doesnt sound like the traditional Grid i know a little of...?

Read any of PS3 Patent/Technical Circle Jerks... err... technical posts and look at how processing is shared. The concept of the Apulet is interesting.

Circle jerks... tsk...

Ahem, I agree though I like Apulets and how the whole architecture lends itself to nice and dynamic load balancing... it doesn't have to be forced, Apulets are supposed to be able to migrate to find a free APU to be processed...

I just like the idea

 

[jvd]

jvd:

Heh. I have no doubt ms entered the console industry to make money. But guess what the entered the console industry. So first and for most they need to make a video game system. So at the end of the day if the system is not in budget then they will cut out all the non console parts. So at the end of the day if that hardrive was to expensive they would have canned it. So that they could put out the video game system.

Remember console market. Remeber console market. Got that ? Mabye you should repeat that more.

I'll let Vince reply to this, as he's best of explaining it (if he bothers with you, that is). All I can say is, if everyone would apply that logic, then we'd still have a Nintendo sytle 'game-only' system in a market that hardly expanded. Perhaps you should stop concentrating on just the game-industry and look beyond that to understand what Vince and others on this very same forum have been outlining and speculating over the past few months, if not years already.

If you guys can't agree with this then mabye we should stop talking. They are making a video game system. Sure they want to add more to it . Sure they want to force products down our throughts . But if it doesn't succed as a game console first the other plans will fail. Do you disagree with that ? I don't see how you would. If the ps3 hardware sucks compared to the xbox 2 or gamecube because they had to cut costs to include something not related to gaming then the ps3 will fail. Its that simple.

So yea multi media hub is good. Multi media hub with out beign a good game console .... is bad . Xbox is supior in its multi media expansion and yet it is failing compared to the two more pure video game systems.

 

[zurich]

So yea multi media hub is good. Multi media hub with out beign a good game console .... is bad . Xbox is supior in its multi media expansion and yet it is failing compared to the two more pure video game systems.

Despite the Xbox's full name being the 'Xbox Video Game System', as opposed to the PS2's 'PlayStation 2 Computer Entertainment System'? I wonder which is being pushed more of a 'pure' gaming machine heh.

And if you really want to get into this, the PS2 is much more of a 'multimedia hub' than the XB, as it played DVDs first, has prog. scan DVD playback first, can read CDrs (audio), and with the addition of QCast can stream/playback DiVX/MPEG4 movies. Hell, it even has a firewire port on it.

Sony's goal each generation is to EXPAND its market, and the best way to do that is to appeal to other demographics, like AVnuts. If they buy the system because its a lowend BR player, chances are very high that over the course of the generation they'll atleast try a game or two, and if they get hooked.. then Sony just got another customer.

 

[ChryZ]

If the ps3 hardware sucks compared to the xbox 2 or gamecube because they had to cut costs to include something not related to gaming then the ps3 will fail.

Who knows what was cut down to include DVD playback into PS2 (maybe 8MB embedded vram, down to 4MB ... hehe the right people know what I am talking about). Anyway, many people in Japan bought the PS2, because it was able to playback DVDs and games. And that feature helped for sure in the first 9-12 month of triple-A-game-shortage and gave DVD a big push. Sony is acting more and more as one company, instead of a collection of subdiaries going one vs one. If PS3 helps selling a new format, SCEI wouldn't be the only one to pay the bill for including this feature. This is just a side note, I don't agree nor disagree with you. Let's wait and see what happens ...

 

[akira888]

4MB of VRAM cut out to make room for DVD playback. That seems quite wrong, as firstly all of the main hardware neccessities of a DVD player were to included in the PS2 hardware regardless (MPEG2 decoder, DVD-ROM Drive, Video/Audio Out DAC), and the only other component needed to make a DVD Player is the license, about 15-20 dollars. I can assure you 4MB of eDRAM cost in 1999 much, much more than that. It is still quite costly, 3.5 years later.

 

[Squeak]

Who knows what was cut down to include DVD playback into PS2 (maybe 8MB embedded vram, down to 4MB ... hehe the right people know what I am talking about).

Toshiba/Sony engineers are not stupid, if cutting out the IPU for some extra cache memory would have meant that games would have run better, they would have done it.
Sure it would have cost a bit extra to but a little ROM with a MPEG2 decoding program on the PSB, but not dramatically much more, and in time it would have been absorbed on one of the main dies.

I’m sure the engineers put the IPU on the EE die for very good reason and also had a videogame related purpose with it.
Only time will tell if it ever gets used for stuff like decompression of textures.

Anyway the idea of meagre cache for dynamic media applications have caught on in later architectures with the same purpose, such as this: http://cva.stanford.edu/imagine/ .
I think the reason for the PS2s on average, disappointing graphics performance should be sought elsewhere.

 

[ChryZ]

(maybe 8MB embedded vram, down to 4MB ... hehe the right people know what I am talking about)

Sorry, maybe it was not the best example. It was not intended to be a cheap shot nor I agree with "average, disappointing graphics performance".

 

[notAFanB]

jvd:

Heh. I have no doubt ms entered the console industry to make money. But guess what the entered the console industry. So first and for most they need to make a video game system. So at the end of the day if the system is not in budget then they will cut out all the non console parts. So at the end of the day if that hardrive was to expensive they would have canned it. So that they could put out the video game system.

Remember console market. Remeber console market. Got that ? Mabye you should repeat that more.

I'll let Vince reply to this, as he's best of explaining it (if he bothers with you, that is). All I can say is, if everyone would apply that logic, then we'd still have a Nintendo sytle 'game-only' system in a market that hardly expanded. Perhaps you should stop concentrating on just the game-industry and look beyond that to understand what Vince and others on this very same forum have been outlining and speculating over the past few months, if not years already.

If you guys can't agree with this then mabye we should stop talking. They are making a video game system. Sure they want to add more to it . Sure they want to force products down our throughts . But if it doesn't succed as a game console first the other plans will fail. Do you disagree with that ? I don't see how you would. If the ps3 hardware sucks compared to the xbox 2 or gamecube because they had to cut costs to include something not related to gaming then the ps3 will fail. Its that simple.

So yea multi media hub is good. Multi media hub with out beign a good game console .... is bad . Xbox is supior in its multi media expansion and yet it is failing compared to the two more pure video game systems.

while I share your sentiments on this, I can't deny that we are reaching a point where all this computing power we will be seeing next gen would be wasted on only gaming applications.

propagation by attrition is pretty useful way to sell MM units IMO.

 

[Phil]

jvd:

If you guys can't agree with this then mabye we should stop talking. They are making a video game system. Sure they want to add more to it . Sure they want to force products down our throughts . But if it doesn't succed as a game console first the other plans will fail. Do you disagree with that ? I don't see how you would. If the ps3 hardware sucks compared to the xbox 2 or gamecube because they had to cut costs to include something not related to gaming then the ps3 will fail. Its that simple.

So yea multi media hub is good. Multi media hub with out beign a good game console .... is bad . Xbox is supior in its multi media expansion and yet it is failing compared to the two more pure video game systems.

I honestly don't kow why I bother. No doubt, PS3's main function is to play games - no one is denying that here. If memory serves me correct, you are having doubts that Sony would put in bluray and other functionality not designed specifically for gaming if they can't get it cheap enough. While this is to a certain extent true, you would have to be blind not to see the advantage Sony has as opposed to other console manufacturers by controlling the entire process of each and every unit. Believe me, thanks to that advantage, it's a given that Sony knows pretty well for how much they'll be able to produce those given units 'x' years down the road.

Speaking of non-gaming specific functionality: It's obvious, Sony sees a great opportunity to push the PS3 as something more than just a pure gaming console. If they market it as the next multi media universal gadget for the living room, they can cater to a much broader audiance. What started out as a pure console could be the next big thing, catering to gamers, av people and many more. That would mean you have the potential of gamers buying your product for its gaming capabilities, av people buying it for the internet connectivity or the alround Sony consumers that see the benefits of having multiple CELL products connecting and interacting with one another. This way, one product sells the other. Think about it, isn't it worth the added cost and risk? Smart business if you ask me.

Bluray is important as they can push this format through the success of PS3. What is the concept and vision behind CELL anyway? Why is it trival that CELL is in PS3? If you can answer those questions, then it shouldn't be hard to see how PS3 fits in Sony's vision.

 

[chaphack]

People have to remember that while it is cool to think dynamically forward, but are we, everyone, the world able to move dynamically forward enough, to catch our thoughts?

As i said, games will still take the main cashcow for SCE. And games will be what SCE will put priority in(i hope that IS the case).

Look back at the PS2, i am sure Sony fans will be happy to point out that, all the online talkies, SoNet/Games/Movies and all, were put forward by Sony way before Xbox Live was even announced. IIRC, it was at the very unveilig of PS2, Kutaragi were hyping all about the online coolness. But what you know, PS2 has NOTHING even remotely close to being online capable. Thinking back, that is quite sad for a system, which was already half cooked in its main capabilities.

And why is that i ask of you?

Another thingie to add, i think jvd was right that MS was losing more $$$ per console than Sony, launch for launch. And we know who provides more bang for buck too.

 

[Fafalada]

I wonder how much the PSX will cost. A 1000? 2000? Sure the supporters will claim it is meant to be a high end lifestyle product, but what is stopping Sony from selling it cheaper? It is just a PS2, with a Tv turner, DVD burner and HDD...norminal parts, nothing cutting edge...

MSRPs for products on the market Right now:
Panasonic DVD recorder line(not all of them include a HDD) : 500$ - 1000$
Pioneer DVR 7000 : 2000$
Samsung DVD-H40E : 600$
Toshiba RD-X2 : 1500$
etc.

We could go comparing specs, but since PSX is apparently already so 'not cutting edge' according to you , I figure it's pointless to compare to products that don't even include a PC component of any kind, and mostly come with much smaller HDDs etc.

And the only console port(s) that taketh most space is MGS2. One dual layer singe sided DVD. Most of them are still at 2-4 CDs. A better compression scheme might help?

Yeah, because it's the Console games that are known to have super fast disc access and tons of memory to waste on uncompressed data.
Console ports are still downsized to fit the smaller media on PC, but even so, native PC games are about 2x smaller on average (1-2cds).

I?m sure the engineers put the IPU on the EE die for very good reason and also had a videogame related purpose with it.
Only time will tell if it ever gets used for stuff like decompression of textures.

Time, or PR will tell? Without a big PR splash about it most people around here wouldn't give a damn if it's being used or not, and Chaps of this world would never even know.

Anyway the idea of meagre cache for dynamic media applications have caught on in later architectures with the same purpose

Maybe it's semanticst here, but I thought that's exactly what an UMA is? (one big pool with a few meagre caches on top).

I think the reason for the PS2s on average, disappointing graphics performance should be sought elsewhere.

Well it's just the wrong cache people are bitching about. It's a fact that R59k memory accesses are the bottleneck of majority of PS2 apps - and extra 8-16kb of higher asociativity D-Cache would help this out immensely.
I blame Mips and Toshiba engineers for this (because I need some scape goat ) but who knows what the real reason was.

 

[notAFanB]

People have to remember that while it is cool to think dynamically forward, but are we, everyone, the world able to move dynamically forward enough, to catch our thoughts?

I sorry Chap while I respect that that is a valid opinion. I just don't believe that's what drives technology and it's propagation.

it's not like Sony (or anyone else for that matter) have their collective heads up in the clouds is it? it's the push that moves us the forward just look at the PC GFX paradigm for an example.

 

[function]

Panajev2001a,

You've probably already seen this, but on on the off chance it's fairly new here's an extract from an article I came accross on BR, here: http://www.cdrinfo.com/Sections/News/Details.asp?RelatedID=3665

Sony claims that maybe as soon as 2005 it will have ready second-generation products -- single-sided, double-layer 50GB discs and data transfer speeds of up to 144 Mbps. Then will come third-generation products, with single-sided, four-layer discs and 100GB storage capacity. By that time, Sony is hoping to achieve data transfer rates of up to 288Mbps.

Looks like BR will be able to match even the biggest figures that the competition are throwing around. Any idea whether 1st generation drives will be able to read 2 and 4 layer disks fully, or at all? I expect you'd be able to write to a 1 layer disk on a 3rd generation drive (and have it read on a 1st generation drive), but I'm thinking about the possibility of a 1st generation drive reading a full 100GB disk.

[Edited to make my query clearer!]

 

[London Geezer]

People have to remember that while it is cool to think dynamically forward, but are we, everyone, the world able to move dynamically forward enough, to catch our thoughts?

huh?

Look back at the PS2, i am sure Sony fans will be happy to point out that, all the online talkies, SoNet/Games/Movies and all, were put forward by Sony way before Xbox Live was even announced. IIRC, it was at the very unveilig of PS2, Kutaragi were hyping all about the online coolness. But what you know, PS2 has NOTHING even remotely close to being online capable. Thinking back, that is quite sad for a system, which was already half cooked in its main capabilities.

huh? ps2 is online. Sony (like everyone else) was waiting for the infrastructure to be ready.... no point on putting a broadband adapter in the console by default (raising costs of course) if it's not gonna get used for like 3 years....

Another thingie to add, i think jvd was right that MS was losing more $$$ per console than Sony, launch for launch. And we know who provides more bang for buck too.

well u know, when u're in the position of not being forced to lower the price of your hardware in order to increase sales, what do u do? lower it anyway? if ps2 is selling 10000000 times as much as xbox even though it's ironically more expensive, why would sony want to lower the price?
still, more bang for your bucks is all subjective.... one could say that for ps2's price, u get so many quality games it's not even funny, compared to the somewhat lacklustre xbox's catalogue.... and selling a network adapter for the price of a game is pretty good in my opinion, considering that a game is included anyway in the package. same for Eye Toy, camera and little games for the price of a game....

 

[Vince]

Look back at the PS2, i am sure Sony fans will be happy to point out that, all the online talkies, SoNet/Games/Movies and all, were put forward by Sony way before Xbox Live was even announced. IIRC, it was at the very unveilig of PS2, Kutaragi were hyping all about the online coolness. But what you know, PS2 has NOTHING even remotely close to being online capable. Thinking back, that is quite sad for a system, which was already half cooked in its main capabilities.

F*ing Americans... there is a world outside our bounderies you know. I hear there is even an island, near the ends of the world where Atlas's hand is, where they have many of these things...

 

[chaphack]

Faf,

Yeay, i got your point, PC and console games are quite different. You can pack em all tightly and unpack them during installation for PC games, while console games are play direct from the disc. So i guess that is why we can see certain games, that have dummy data almost as much as game data.

Vince,

For all the prelaunch online talkie, launch PS2 did not even come with a NA. Think about that and extrapolate it to the dynamically forward ideals and all.

 

[London Geezer]

For all the prelaunch online talkie, launch PS2 did not even come with a NA. Think about that and extrapolate it to the dynamically forward ideals and all.

AGAIN, another confirmation that u must have been such a sony drone on ps2 pre-launch, without using your head. one of those who REALLY bought into the Toy-story graphics thing. then when the thing came out u were so disappointed u will never touch a Sony thing ever again in your life.. pretty sad...
Sony just said ps2 would go online once they put eveything together......

and BTW, LOL@ "extrapolate it to the dynamically forward ideals and all"...... chap u dont need big words to impress people in here, u just need a brain....

 

[chaphack]

You still dont get it londony? LOL

The biggest reason why Sony cut away the NA + HDD from launch PS2 is the cost. Now, use that brain of yours and think on, me great pal.