You asked my reasons and I explained them. Did you not understand ? If you can't understand my posts then perhaps its best if we end correspondence here.
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I can't understand something which has no meaning. Nvidia can't "drive prices up" if they are still selling cards at those prices <$700 which you're seemingly okay with.
4090 isn't more expensive than the top end cards in 30 series either.
Exactly. Focus on perf/power/features at iso-price or price at iso-perf vis-a-vis what else is available in the market and judge value for yourselves. No need to segfault your heads trying to deconstruct whatever 10-dimensional chess game the branding guys were playing.
Some other thoughts:
DLSS3 is going to be an interesting factor in the value equation. Reconstruction has gone mainstream now, so if quality holds up for frame generation then it definitely adds to Ada's value. To what extent we can only judge after independent analysis from DF et. al.
In general I've been warning folks that rising silicon costs (way beyond inflation) are going to limit raw perf or perf/$ gains. This has been happening for the past couple of generations, but has been partially mitigated by fixed-function side-steps (RT) or clever hardware/software work-saving (reconstruction). We've seen some other one-time lifelines such as the cheaper SEC8 node. Those lifelines are running out.
Given those challenges I've been very pessimistic about pricing for this gen, especially for Nvidia because GeForce is still 50% of their bread and butter and they can't afford to take a big haircut on margins, unlike AMD or Intel who likely have more flexibility because dGPUs are effectively noise in their earnings charts. And so I wasn't too surprised by the 4080 prices but I was a little surprised by the 4090 pricing -- I was expecting it to come in higher. It's a big die on a premium node and it's actually cheaper than the inflation-adjusted launch price of the 3090 (price went up 6.7% while inflation was 14.4% from 2020 to 2022) while providing, what, +70% performance? That's *before* DLSS3. It's probably a small market segment, but for folks in that tier it seems to be a big upgrade all around.
So you still don't understand that people compare top end cards with top end cards. The 3070/3080/3090 were the high end ampre cards at launch. The 4080/real 4080 and 4090 are the high end cards now. Nvidia has no 40x0 card in the $700 price range. So I am comparing what they announced.
Since you can't understand it or just don't want to understand it and quite frankly your extremely condescending I am just going to stop corresponding with you. Good bye.
Flappy Pannus
Veteran
I think it's not that people necessarily need 2x raster performance for the 3090 class cards, it's more that they want to see something closer to 3080/3090 class raster performance be delivered to the eventual 3070/3060ti/3060 class cards that Ada will address at some point - and delivering a 2X raster performance in the halo product would make something like that at least more likely. The significant disparity between the 4090 and 4080 in raster, and especially the 4080(cough) 12GB, indicates that this wish may not necessarily be fulfilled when those mainstream cards arrive in 2023.
Perhaps it was naivete to think a raster jump of 50% + is possible for the mainstream segment with the slowing of process advancements, sure - but those class of cards are certainly bottlenecked by raster in many games still, and come mid 2023 we'll be approaching 3 years since Ampere. I sure as hell still see a need for faster raster in the $400-$500 segment, and the early (yes, early) indications are the improvements in that area might be very minor.
It would be one thing if the 4090 was like the 3090 of past - more of an 'extreme' 3080 and with a ton of added vram, but this time its specs are vastly superior to the 4080 all around, and the 4080 12GB in turn is vastly inferior as well to the point where it really shouldn't have 8 in that name at all. Those gargantuan specs of the 4090 are what's needed to get, so far, the top-end results of 70% raster - improvements rapidly drop off in the tiers below that.
"Top end cards" is a couple of top dogs launched during the generation. In case of 30 series these are 3090 (original) and 3090Ti (late refresh). Neither 3080 nor 3070 are "top end cards".
You could compare 3080 12GB with 4080 12GB because they are launching at the same price. As for the rest - these comparisons are absolutely random.
I'm actually starting to feel like 4080 12GB was a conscious pun on those who compare cards by numbers in their names instead of prices and performance...
So you're comparing whatever you want basically for no other reason than to feel offended and be with these people on social media then who are also offended. Gotcha.
Flappy Pannus
Veteran
Or, you know, you could actually name your cards something sensical that actually reflects the difference in the product stack. I actually think it's perfectly fine to point out when a company purposeful obfuscates the differences in products in the name of marketing and criticize that.
Nvidia increased performance at the high end by driving prices of the cards up. The runt of the litter 12gig 4080 is $900. The 3080 launched at $700 , the 3070 launched at $500. We have to see benchmarks and see how much faster the 4080 is over the 3080 and the 3070. We may end up in a situation whre the $500-$700 cards offer almost no performance uplift over the previous generation. couple that with what will surely be smaller vram pools and they could have issues when games switch over to ps5/xbox series titles.
Seems like "12GB" is there for that. Or are we talking about those mythical GPU buyers who base their buying decisions solely on GPU name on the box?
Sure, me too. Not really seeing it here though. Would prefer for 16GB model to be called 4080Ti but whatever, doesn't change anything.
Flappy Pannus
Veteran
That is my concern, and that's what I'm focusing on - the price bracket, I don't care what naming scheme Nvidia eventually calls them. There is a lot riding on DLSS 3 it seems.
The 4080 having only 12GB at $900 is also a worry for the vram amount of cheaper cards. I can't see purchasing any GPU at even $400 in 2023 that doesn't have at least 12GB.
Flappy Pannus
Veteran
Seems like 12GB is there to say the card has 12GB, if specs don't matter then why change the numbering scheme of any card and just go by vram amounts? People would rightfully think 'wtf?' if the 3070 was named the 3080 8GB, and the gap in performance between those two cards is far less than the 4080 16 and the 4080 12GB.
Yeah I figured.
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It's odd to me. When nvidia launched ampree the high end card was the 3090 / 3080/3070. they all announced the same day. Nvidia now launched ada and put out a 4090/4080/4080 runt edition. I am comparing apples to apples here. The issue should be taken with Nvidia for almost doubling the price of the last gen cards with this new generation of cards.
If I go to chevy in 2018 and they have a trax , equinox and traverse and I buy an equinox and then 3 years later I go back and they now doubled the price of the Equinox and then take the trax and rename it Equinox little and increase it over the price of what I paid for the equinox of course I am going to question wtf is going on. But apparently its okay and normal to do in the graphics market.
I'm just a customer. I bought a 3080. I would assume that the 4080 would be its successor but the price has now doubled. What's more instead of a 3070 and 3080 there is now two 4080s but they have different specs to confuse the situation even further but the only change is the amount of ram further trying to mislead consumers. Nvidia has had suffix's on cards before denoting decreased or increases in performance over the stock brand for instance using super or using ti. So why doesn't that exist now ?
If people take offence to consumers pointing out the anti consumer practices of a company then they should really take a good loook at why they are upset and revaluate some stuff.
DLSS 3 seems to be their only play. The reason for me to buy a new card would be to try and get the best performance out of upcoming games that I really want like starfield. If the only way to get a decent upgrade in performance is to spend double what I spent on my current card then there isn't really too much to say. I would rather play game without dlss as I want as pure of an image as I can get with no additional latency or artifcating going on.
I have a feeling that the lower end cards could end up with sub 10gig vram allocations. To be perfectly honesty I think a $700 card from nvidia will be wthin 10-15% of the 3080 and nvidia will try and advertise dlss3 numbers to sway people over which to me is really slimy
gamervivek
Regular
The 4080 12GB naming debate is even funnier considering the 192-bit chip used to be used in xx60 cards for the past few gens, got promoted to 104 chip designation in this gen and finally got a double promotion with the xx80 card designation. 
It looks like that is the case and nothing has changed. Ada workstation cards look like they will be using GDDR6.
NVIDIA RTX 6000 Ada Generation Graphics Card
Powered by the NVIDIA Ada Lovelace Architecture.
www.nvidia.com
Personally I still find these unilateral memory standard pushes away from conventional GDDR interesting. Regardless if it's by Nvidia or AMD the results always seem at best "mixed" in terms of what they were trying to achieve.
Flappy Pannus
Veteran
Maybe. To counter some of my cynicism somewhat, I've seen some in other forums start claiming this is the signifier that PC gaming is dead which I think is a bit hysterical, but largely because I just don't think Ada priced the way it is right now is necessarily an indicator of what Nvidia truly feels is actually indicative of anything close to the mainstream going forward (they did refer to the $329 3060 as their 'mainstream card' in this very keynote after all). Maybe Jensen is this far up his own ass but I don't quite think so.
It's a perfect storm of factors leading to this imo; which is: TMSC having everyone by the short and curlies, advanced process tech just being very difficult and restricted in capacity, inflation, and most importantly a massive backlog of Ampere cards due largely to crypto being crypto. It's priced precisely to not touch Ampere except with the slightest graze at the top of the head.
I think the one bright spot right now is the fact that the 3080/3090 class cards keep seeing price drops, while being primary a PC gaming enthusiast I want pc hardware to be flying off the shelves naturally, but at these prices I think it's a good thing that they've having some trouble moving them. I just have never seen the market for these class of cards to be that large without crypto pumping it up.
I am not foolish enough to believe we'll soon see the return of the $300 console-destroying segment (albeit that really hasn't been the case since the PS4 Pro/One X anyway), but I think this shows at least the pure insanity of the last 2 years is finally abating. So regardless of what Nvidia would like the 3070/3060 replacements to be in terms of price/performance, I don't really know if they can just jack up the price and expect it will sell. It's not just a case of AMD not bringing enough heat, there just isn't the disposable income out there like there has been.
Speaking of AMD btw, $559 ($20 rebate) 16GB 6800 XT's are now being sold. Yeah yeah, RT performance is bleh. But it does indicate the amount of pressure the channel is feeling atm. And hey, if you really value raster performance...
Your platform of choice will go first im sure.
Price-wise it certainly looks like it. Then again, x80 Ti has always been on the top gaming chip though IIRC.
Flappy Pannus
Veteran
Somewhat of an interesting take from another angle that focuses on the massive increase in tensor capacity and what that can bring.
Outside of the 4090 though, I'm not sure I accept the thesis this the target of these Ada models so far is really "Professional developer, occasional gamer", and I'm very skeptical of the last point in particular. I'm not sure the 4070 will actually be 'far, far different' than the lower tier 4080, especially if it has actually more graphics/compute cores - I think that would really upset new 4080 owners if in current games they are actually running at a deficit to the cheaper, lower tier card, just can't see that happening. I think these cards are designed how they are because that's where Nvidia has focused its talent and it's only natural they would leverage that into their gaming line, and the market now just means that's how they're going to price them for the time being.
Explanation: The 40XX series cards just announced are for professionals with gaming-related workloads, not actual gamers (yet)
Outside of the 4090 though, I'm not sure I accept the thesis this the target of these Ada models so far is really "Professional developer, occasional gamer", and I'm very skeptical of the last point in particular. I'm not sure the 4070 will actually be 'far, far different' than the lower tier 4080, especially if it has actually more graphics/compute cores - I think that would really upset new 4080 owners if in current games they are actually running at a deficit to the cheaper, lower tier card, just can't see that happening. I think these cards are designed how they are because that's where Nvidia has focused its talent and it's only natural they would leverage that into their gaming line, and the market now just means that's how they're going to price them for the time being.
Explanation: The 40XX series cards just announced are for professionals with gaming-related workloads, not actual gamers (yet)
Reddit User Idolhunter2 said:
Reddit User Idolhunter2 said:
Reddit User Idolhunter2 said:
Reddit User Idolhunter2 said:
DavidGraham
Veteran
DLSS 3 seems to be adding about 50%~60% more performance. However, in Cyberpunk .. NVIDIA showed the 4090 to be 4 times faster than 3090Ti, here the 4090 is running DLSS3, while the 3090Ti is running DLSS performance (effectively @1080p). Raw performance must be very high here.
Digital Foundry also shows the 4090 DLSS3 250% faster than 3090Ti DLSS Performance.
So where is the massive difference is coming from? The 4090 should be at least twice as fast as the 3090Ti in this game raw performance to raw performance.
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