That's wacky. Isn't the the answer to Sony investing in the marketing of multi platform games (I see Microsoft do this plenty too) for Nintendo to do likewise? Aren't they sitting on billions of dollars of cash?
Even assuming all things are equal (and we know they're not), if a developer/publisher is picking which platform(s) to prioritise development on, the platform where the manufacturer is also willing to invest heavily in marketing your game is going to be preferable.
Nintendo need their own equivalent to Sony's ICE team. Way back when Sony launched the ps3 they were in a similar boat to Nintendo, with terrible and/or nonexistant tools, bad documentation, bad support, poor online, you name it it was all horrid. What saved them is groups like the ICE team at Naughty Dog. So while Sony didn't understand themselves the importance of good tools, good communication and a good support network ICE were able to pick up the slack and do it all for them, helping everyone out in the process and applying much needed pressure back on Sony to get their act together. It took time but eventually it worked and Sony figured it out. Nintendo has no such equivalent in place right now, that of a group of engineers dedicated to making the development process easier, answering questions promptly, providing in person support, providing tools, the works. I don't think any amount of hardware will help them so long as their development process remains as broken as it appears now. They can ship the greatest hardware chipset ever but if the debugger is shit or doesn't exist (like with spu's at launch) no one will have the time, money and patience to use it. If they can't even reply to developers the same day regarding questions then they may as well go it alone because no one will help them. If they can't even ship a complete package then no one will have the confidence to go along with them. More so now than ever given that two other platforms exist that are very third party friendly and both of whom understand the importance of good developer support.
That's wacky. Isn't the the answer to Sony investing in the marketing of multi platform games (I see Microsoft do this plenty too) for Nintendo to do likewise? Aren't they sitting on billions of dollars of cash?
Even assuming all things are equal (and we know they're not), if a developer/publisher is picking which platform(s) to prioritise development on, the platform where the manufacturer is also willing to invest heavily in marketing your game is going to be preferable.
They also think too highly of themselves, just because they own the majority of their home market (3DS +Japan) they think every dev will automatically develop games for them. As for western dev, even 3DS is doing good or decent (No 1 HW on NPD last month irc) many western dev or big publishers rather develop games for mobile which is miles ahead of handheld in terms of ROI. They need to put money and effort to gain support to make more money, its as simple as that, money hat big franchise can only get you so far and that has become cancer for the game industry where dev just ask for a bag of cash. Sony approach for 3rd party support of no money hat exclusive is the best, they only do that for risky games that no body is willing to fund like beyond and heavy rain. Another way is to give dev tech support for co develop their tech like deep down, and the engine is still multi platform ready according to capcom, but the game is PS4 exclusive due to SCEJ support.
I would think developers choose platforms where the addressable market has the potential to bring the highest returns.
Why would they expect developers to support their devices when they trail in market share?
Well the Wii didn't trail in market share but third party sales were dismal. A lot of Wii owners only cared about Wii Sports and one or two other first-party titles. It was a wasteland for 3rd-party games.
The interesting thing with ICE, IIRC, is that it was created for a competitive advantage against 3rd party devs. Could have easily gone the wrong way with 3rd parties struggling to release decent quality titles against 1st party games showing a prominence. That's one of the problem of the hardware company also being a software company - there's a conflict of interests between letting other developers sell games on your machine and selling your own games on your machine.
The interesting thing with ICE, IIRC, is that it was created for a competitive advantage against 3rd party devs. Could have easily gone the wrong way with 3rd parties struggling to release decent quality titles against 1st party games showing a prominence. That's one of the problem of the hardware company also being a software company - there's a conflict of interests between letting other developers sell games on your machine and selling your own games on your machine.
yup, this is also where sony failed with their 1st party studios. I remember david jaffe commented on sony 1st party games before, Sony never go aggressive marketing their own games. Most of the 1st party games are created to fill in the blank for different genre that is missing in their library. After dominated 2 console generation, the studio barely have any mega hit franchise even with so many 1st party studios. I think it wasnt until PS3 that sony realize this is their problem and actually put some marketing effort in their games.
Yeah, I would not invest into custom hardware design if I ran Nintendo. There's no point and you can leverage so much by going off the shelf especially in terms of development tools and developer's already existing experience.
Indeed, why reinvent the wheel especially as they are unlikely to aim for the moon.
I think price point is very important however. For mobile, I think their next handheld should be priced around $150 (they can probably offer an XL model for more, but the entry price shouldn't be much more). I would try to go with a highly integrated, but already existing mobile ARM SOC. Keep the cost down through integration and by buying a part that sells in volume.
I used to think the same, I no longer do. Now you find nice 7 tab for 130$, those tab runs emulators fine, quality of natives games is slowly going up, and they offer a lot for the price.
Imo now if they want impulse buys from adults (whether they buy for them-selves or kids) they need to be 99$. If they are more expensive they will in competition somehow with phones and tablets. 150$ get the old nexus 7, the HP slate 7 +, etc. , not gaming devices though in their category they offer more bang for bucks than say the 3ds which capabilities and functionalities for the price lacks in comparison.
For home console, I'd move to x86 and try to release one that's $75-$100 cheaper than PS4 (assuming PS4 is $299 when that next Nintendo console ships).
I would stick to ARM, Nintendo does not seem to have what it takes to support the software environment for 2 ISA.
I would aim for max 199$. You can do "a lot" for that price, they don't have to follow Sony and MSFt path, the CEO is right about that. Though they need to be better in range wrt to CPU power and have a sane amount of RAM available to game, they better follow mobile tech and give it some more room to breath (TDP).
It's certainly possible that Nintendo could go with a high-end machine, let's say $399 in 2015/2016, but for that route to be viable, I think they really need a culture change to build a competitive network to PSN/Live and restore 3rd party relationships.
they could but I'm not sure that frontal confrontation with msft or Sony is the way to go. Being a target for lots of mobiles ports could prove more forward looking, as long as they can get sane port of big consoles/PC titles.
Now if they don't go after Sony and MSFT on the specs front, I wonder if they should make the difference even "stronger". May be Nintendo simply can't match MSFT or Sony on many accounts any time soon: from online infrastructure to the quiet complex mechanism that allows to start playing while a game is installing or downloading /plenty of other things.
That is high speculative business case, Nintendo still use cartridge in its handheld, the biggest games if I checked right go up to 4GB. With the progress being made on the front DVD size cartridge are not out of question.
So I wonder if for Nintendo it could be a business case to go back to cartridge for their home console. It is a massive increase in the cost of medium but it is also a strong differentiator.
They might not need to use crazy big cartridge either, after all lot of next gen games still ship on a DVD in that good old 360.
I do know that good textures weights. Though if you limited by the storage it somehow means that you can scale you hardware accordingly. it comes with its own gimmicks.
I would think that with cartridge they could pass on a HDD and install. May not be as fast as a good HDD (I don't know how cheap flash compare) but it is a massive gain in form factor for the console, it is silent, slots could be made tiny so you have multiple games slotted into the system (a cheap way to avoid swapping media). 4 slots sounds right.
HDD and Optical drive are a massive fixed price in console BOM. They also have serious impact on form factor.
Nintendo could go with a lsane amount of flash, 8GB and let costumers use std SD card for extra storage (again a couples of slot would be great). One could conveniently move its profile and saved.
As for the overall specs they could aim at being some ps360 "1.5". If you set a constrain on storage I would think that you don't need a crazy amount of RAM, 2 GB for the game would be comfortable, 4GB for the whole system would be plenty.
I'm really curious about what an APU with competitive CPU, a modern GPU pushing 500MFLOPS, 4 times the RAM of the ps360 (for games), an UMA system with +70GB/s to RAM (128 bit bus and gddr5) could do. I'm surprised by how far the ps360 have been pushed, it would not take much to reach the good enough (if coherent with the price ask for the system)
what the WiiU should have been.
Depending on release date, Nintendo could easily pack some more GPU power.
The system would use the same hardware IP as their handheld, the home console could run the the handheld games. Actually the cartridge for both system would use the same format. Some not demanding games could only see one release (= downloadable HD pack for the home console).
Overall for the games that are too constrained for 8GB , Nintendo could allows for downloadable HD pack (not mandatory ala BF4 on the 360).
For OS instead of the crazy big OS in the WiiU, they wouldstick to something light, functional and simple (it won't be iOS or Android anyway) and reasonable evolution of the 3ds OS.
For the social aspect, they should use existing solution and rent network infrastructure. (facebook comes to mind0.
Then there is the input, there is a wii generation that love the wiimote, I think they have to built on it. Stop the pad schizophrenia that reached its peak with the WiiU.
Imo they should be no nun-chuck, pro conrollers, etc.
It should be a reworked wiimote, with 4 buttons on the front, that can be plugged into various shaped accessories (with tiny connectors for extra buttons).The nunchuck should comes standard so the console is compatible with all type of games (the wiimote lacks in control on its own).
The focus would be simplicity, a back to basis, really cheap hardware to trigger impulse buys from parents, open policies with storage, reliance on a chosen existing solution for social interaction (vs waste money on not competitive solution). Simple plug and play, enough CPU power and matched amount of memory to get ports easily. OTS parts for harware.
They are righ it is a toy, just make a proper one.
Yeah, they would totally win the hearts of 3rd parties with another Gamecube->Wii performance transition...
So the world+dog is hitting Nintendo because of the crappy performance they plan for their hardware and you want them to keep doing that or even do worse?
1.5x PS360 means we'll be having faster smartphones than such a console within 3 years, or 1 year by the time such console hits the market.
Low-performance/Low-power gaming isn't untapped market anymore. If Nintendo refuses to put out hardware that is capable of competing with the xbone/ps4 on performance and visuals, people will just stick to their tablets and smartphones.
Just like they've been since 2010.
Well, it seems clear that they don't want to go high end. They won't all of sudden can't be in a posituon to compete withSony or MSFT, on online platform, first party technical excellence, overall technical excellence, etc.
Low is not adressed properly imo, Wii was underpowered but got saved by the wiimotes. The Wiiu is different, it is no better than previous system on all accounts, it is too expensive for what it does(even without the wiiumote), etc.
It could be better and yet still be low end, sitting in between two gen mostly.
If you read the news you would see that is not only power that is lacking, it is more the system balance (cpu power lacks), bad tools and bad sales that bothers publishers.
Sales reflect many things foremost the price is too high. They have other issues but price is the most relevant. Costumers.are not fool either, WiiU is last gen and does not capitalize on the Wii strength.
By its price it is not a low end system. By its it is not low end either it is outdated, unbalanced, with bad design choices.
Please... No. An ARM-based console for $200 is going to be as gimp as the wuu is. ARM silicon is inherently low-performant and optimized for low clock speeds, and after you include the other hardware a modern console needs (RAM, flash, quite possibly HDD, misc. I/O, networking interfaces/wifi/BT and so on), cooling, casing, power supply and the controller, there's not going to be much money left for a decent-enough GPU.
You wouldn't have to go all bonkers like PS4 with its 8GB GDDR5 or 42MB SRAM like xbone, stick to 32MB eDRAM (possibly external die to avoid complicated silicon process requirements) and cheaper DDR3 for main memory. That would cut costs. But to launch a console with LESS relative power than the two current console champs would be suicide (unattractive to 3rd parties for starters, just like wuu is), and a $200 ARM console could never compete. Never!
Well, it seems clear that they don't want to go high end. They won't all of sudden can't be in a posituon to compete withSony or MSFT, on online platform, first party technical excellence, overall technical excellence, etc.
If they're not willing to try and pay good amounts of money for it, then they have no choice but to leave the hardware business altogether.
Again: low cost and casual gaming is taken. There are billions of smartphones and tablets out there and people are using them exactly for that. Once adaptable gamepads become standard(ish) and Android/iOS start getting serious PS360 ports, Nintendo won't have any chance with a low-performance home console.
So they either find yet-another untapped market willing to spend money on games (maybe elders, who knows), compete directly with PS4/Xbone or quit the hardware business and become a 3rd party developer.
What they can't do is pretend the world hasn't changed during the last 5 years and just keep doing what they've done since the Wii's release - which is exactly what you suggested in this post.
Please... No. An ARM-based console for $200 is going to be as gimp as the wuu is. ARM silicon is inherently low-performant and optimized for low clock speeds
Not that clock speeds are a useful metric but Samsung were putting 2Ghz ARM (Exynos) chips into mobile devices in 2012. As were Sony; the Vita's CPU tops out at 2Ghz - and that launched in 2011!
SD cards could work. You'd be shifting the cost of to the software (SD card vs Disc) from the hardware (card reader vs drive), but it would certainly help keep the small form Factor that Nintendo likes.
I actually think of all the companies out there, Nintendo is the one that could pull off an always on/always online console. They have the beginning of an AppStore in the eShop. It would take a lot of work, but I don't think they would get the same backlash that MS did.
SD cards could work. You'd be shifting the cost of to the software (SD card vs Disc) from the hardware (card reader vs drive), but it would certainly help keep the small form Factor that Nintendo likes.
Exactely, lower margin on software but low price could help build a stable user base, for now I would think that Nintendo needs volume more than (higher) margins (through games).
I actually think of all the companies out there, Nintendo is the one that could pull off an always on/always online console. They have the beginning of an AppStore in the eShop. It would take a lot of work, but I don't think they would get the same backlash that MS did.
No I don't think it would trigger the same reaction, though I think that Nintendo should try to get lots of mobiles games (which are light) on its systems. Those games are pretty light not a big pressure on storage.
For more standard games, kids, casuals, etc. physical release still make a lot of sense.
With better systems I think Nintendo could still achieve nice volume on its handheld and find a (more stable) place in the home console ones, they could use the same card, could definitely a wins for owners, another way to game everywhere.
Overall sd card + downloadable and optional HD packs for some big games could be a good compromise. That as well as lot of download only games.
I think more and more that Nintendo should adopt facebook as its de facto social network, Sony is mostly already here too. They should let users do cross platform play on those downloadable games.
Please... No. An ARM-based console for $200 is going to be as gimp as the wuu is. ARM silicon is inherently low-performant and optimized for low clock speeds, and after you include the other hardware a modern console needs (RAM, flash, quite possibly HDD, misc. I/O, networking interfaces/wifi/BT and so on), cooling, casing, power supply and the controller, there's not going to be much money left for a decent-enough GPU.
I disagree ARM CPU does not suck. They are actually getting quite good. Now all implementation are not good, made on sucky (but cheap) LP process, etc.
For example lots of A15 SoC are slower than Kabini, but we don't speak of the same power budget either, it is not that they could be clocked higher, simply there is no market past a given TDP for now.
It seems that A53 could bring neat benefit to A7, if the same prove true for A57 they may have nothing to envy Kabini and its heirs for. There are other chips, Krait are pretty neat, Apple late CPU too, Nvidia has its Denver cores, etc. ARM CPU manufacturers are ramping up their game.
Intel with its process advantage still fight to land a significant win (not that I'm worried about their future anyway and that is not the point).
You wouldn't have to go all bonkers like PS4 with its 8GB GDDR5 or 42MB SRAM like xbone, stick to 32MB eDRAM (possibly external die to avoid complicated silicon process requirements) and cheaper DDR3 for main memory. That would cut costs. But to launch a console with LESS relative power than the two current console champs would be suicide (unattractive to 3rd parties for starters, just like wuu is), and a $200 ARM console could never compete. Never!
First power of the console depends on when they launch, the same applies to the most used capacity of those hypothetical cartridge.
I don't expect Nintendo to match the PS4 in the GPU power department expect if they launch in a long long time, or if some massive breakthrough are made.
My -self I would hope NIntendo reacts fast both on the handhled and home console realm with a coordinated release of devices designed to work hand in hand. I would happily say that the system is outdated or sucks if it is twice the 360 in GPU (+up to date architecture) a competitive CPU and sane amount of ram but ship in late 2016 or later.
When I say I'm curious about what as system with twice the gpu power, etc... etc.. would achieve I don't say that is what Nintendo should do when they launch , I speak of what could be a sane competitor now (that could sell for cheap).
The wiiu is not even close, it is really bad imo. Take those Tegra K1 give some TDP to breath, and use 2GB of GDDR5 (and don't waste 1GB on the OS...) even on a 64 bit bus, and I expect it to wipe the floor with the ps360/WiiU trio.
Imo ARM CPU are the y way to go, way more choice, it is getting good enough (every bit as good as AMD low power (not enough) efforts. there are choice in GPU too: soon AMD, Nvidia, PowerVR, ARM in house Mali.
ARM advertises Cortex-A15 as capable of hitting 2.5GHz. At that clock speed it can easily outperform the CPU cores in PS4 and XB1. This isn't just blowing hot air with specs, Tegra K1 is already designed to hit 2.3GHz and that wasn't designed to go exclusively in a wall powered device. And if nVidia's power numbers are any indication, the perf/W is superior to Jaguar at all points along the curve too. A pair of quad core clusters at 2.5GHz would match the core configuration in the consoles.
No, it won't match high end desktop/laptop single-threaded performance, but it doesn't have to.
The one thing missing is 64-bit, which would make things pretty annoying with 8GB of RAM, even if much of it was used by the GPU. Cortex-A57 solves that and should improve perf and perf/W further. There's a reason AMD is switching to using 2GHz Cortex-A57 CPUs for their servers instead of their next-gen cat cores, and those are supposed to be a lot more efficient than Jaguar. A57 isn't really out yet, but if Nintendo really wanted they could launch a console with it this year.
But Nintendo would never be this aggressive with hardware anymore.
I am in agreement with those who believe Nintendo should have a new home console on sale by holiday 2016 at the latest. If they are to remain in that market, there must be some acknowledgement that they are in competition with Sony and MS. A low priced alternative could be a viable entry for Nintendo, but better hardware must go hand in hand with some policy changes which Nintendo's board might not be comfortable with.
The first thing they should be in position to do, and which I see as possibly successful if they play their cards right, is to release a new portable device. Right now, I'm thinking they should jump on the popular form factor of 7" tablets. Include the 3DS SoC (to be removed in later revisions) for BC but the device could also serve to phase out Wii U in consumer's eyes. A 720p screen for such a device has to be dirt cheap. Even if it requires some of the more demanding games to be subhd upscaled, it's worth the hit. Quite frankly, HD is bare minimum of what consumers expect, even on portable devices, and certainly even more so by late 2015. Seeing Nintendo's first party games with unified shaders on a big screen (and with no nasty compression) should provide some wow factor initially at least. For the chipset, I have seen some evidence that they are going with a semicustom SoC. Something like a Snapdragon from last year or this year should provide a sufficient boost from the 3DS' visuals, and having unified shaders will put them in a much easier position to both recieve mobile ports and also port over games/assets from their home console.
As far as their home solution goes, the first thing they need to think about is price. They have only successfully launched one console over $199 (the Wii, which came with the mainstream phenomenon that was Wii Sports). In this scenario, I would play it safe and stay under $200, unless they recieve a similar reception for one of their games that year. The case should not be gigantic, but it doesn't have to be Wii U small - PS4 size is fine. They need a more compelling design, though. A built in HDD can also no longer be avoided.
Now, I'm not of the belief that a bunch of mobile games will be able to sell a home console for them - they'll need traditional third party support, and so the easiest route for them would be another semicustom AMD x86 APU. By late 2016, 20nm should be widely available, so they start with perhaps the 2015 iteration of AMD's hardware line, make shader count about equal with or close to PS4, and maybe even clock it a little higher. RAM will be a more interesting choice. If they go with DDR4, I believe they could get up to around 100 GB/s of bandwidth on a 256-bit bus. This may be enough, but they should consult devs. If it's not adequate, 32 MB or so of eSRAM might be a solution to look at. That might spike R&D costs though, as the chip gets more and more custom, so I dunno if that's really smart. Still, if they go for more integration with CPU than GPU (opposite of Xbone basically), Nintendo could get that low latency scratchpad they seem to like.
Of course, the hardware isn't going to sell if Nintendo just keep up business as usual. With their pricing structure, they need to go with a more tiered approach. It is fine to charge $60 for the latest Zelda, but for their portable especially, there need to be games at a dollar and five dollars. Some at 10 and 20 dollars and so on. They should cap their own heavy hitters at $35 or so. They seem to be fostering close relationships with a select few indies, so perhaps this will also pay off next gen. They could have an indie "dream team" of sorts producing key titles, while keeping the doors open for other small devs to get their games on the eShop. It's unlikely their eShop ever gets flooded to the extent of Google Play and the Apple Store, but they should keep working on getting quality titles more visible, improve search function, etc.
Then there are the even more obvious things - the things consumers have been asking of them for years. At this point, either have a unified account system or go home. Virtual console started off so promising but petered out by the later Wii years and is now a complete joke on Wii U w/ the rebooted selection. Their first course of action needs to be getting back to parity with the Wii VC. They seemingly need to hire some more guys to work on their emulators. The old games are going to wear out for people, so figuring out a Dolphin-like solution for Gamecube and Wii games should also be a priority. They can continue to offer these games for purchase (fix the prices, though), but introducing a subscription model must also be on their minds. It doesn't have to work exactly like PS Plus, but a rotating selection of classic and current releases would naturally be a part of it.
As far as the OS goes, they have stated that they are merging that for their handheld and home consoles, so "built-in" software will be compatible with both. While it's perhaps unrealistic to expect complete feature parity with Xbox Live, they should focus on a few key items, such as party chat and something analagous to achievements. I've rarely seen devs complain about implementing achievements/trophies and most people seem to like them, especially casuals, so why hold out? Keep Miis, but update them drastically (it will be 10 years since their introduction in 2006) and don't have them be the only identifier players can choose. Allow players to avoid them if they so wish. As for apps and such, again, strike deals with a few of the major players and make conversion easy (I remember hearing about software that converted iOS code to Wii U). Have a nice slide full of logos for some of the most popular iOS/Android applications when presenting the system. They can't compete with those platforms in sheer quantity, but having the major apps people care about should suffice.
Nintendo just need to put together a well-rounded package that is appealing to people. The specs don't need to blow away the competition, but it's gotta be powerful enough so people don't feel ripped off (especially since PS4 and Xbox One will have a larger library) and look slick as a product. Actually, if they really do all that I've outlined and come out with strong first party launch software along with current ports, they could get away with selling it for $250 and a trial subscription. I'd pack in two controllers: one basically a Pro Controller but with analog triggers and the other an evolved Wii Remote with better motion sensors. I see the Wii Remote as more comparable to the NES Zapper in this configuration. The look needs to change slightly and appear modern. They do have the advantage of not needing that ridiculous orb like Sony. I wouldn't go crazy with extra buttons, but instead of the dpad up top, I would put 4 "C" buttons as on N64 (playing into the last Nintendo system that was somewhat cool in the west). On the bottom of the remote I would put a circle pad, so that when Nintendo gets a ridiculous idea and wants a simpler control scheme, players are not stuck with digital controls. And I'd make the B trigger analog. Sell a wireless nunchuku with improved gyros, rumble, and an analog ZL button separately.
Finally, and perhaps most critically, Nintendo ought to think about diversifying their lineup a bit. They are pumping out certain series like clockwork just to fill out their release schedule: Mario and Luigi/Paper Mario (both on 3DS now), Mario Tennis, Mario Party, Yoshi Whatever, Kirby Everything and etc. I'm not saying dump these franchises, as some of these games sell really well, but stagger the releases a bit more and start producing games which appeal to an older demographic as well. An exclusive TPS or FPS does need to happen, and it doesn't need to be the most violent game on the market. It just needs to create a presence in that genre so third parties get the types of players they are looking for. Getting back into sports, with an MLB baseball game perhaps to start, could also draw some different types of players to their products.
It's a tough road ahead, and nailing the specifics of what I outlined is much more difficult than writing a long forum post on what Nintendo should be doing. Yet, I don't believe anything I've mentioned is out of their grasp (except perhaps complete PS4 hardware parity at $199 in 2016, but being the most powerful console is not integral to their business anyway). Much of the above, such as a unified OS and looking at different pricing structures, has already been hinted at. They can't half ass it again, however. Nintendo must realize there is no more "blue ocean" to hide in, and no matter what type of device they release, they will be competing with other very compelling products. Perhaps Sony, MS, Apple and Google really are too far ahead and Nintendo will end up failing regardless, but at least in this vision it will be a spectacular failure.
