Nintendo announce: Nintendo NX

[BRiT]

Pica is old but nobody else used it. It's not tried and tested.

By that same lack of logic then every single console used a not tried and tested GPU. Afterall, no one but Microsoft used that exact GPU in Xbox One, and no one but Sony used that exact GPU in PS4. Repeat the same logic for PS3, and X360, and WiiU, and Wii, and XBox Original, and PS2, and PSX, and ...

 

[zed]

"a lot of games" and "Vita" do not belong in the same sentance - and I'm a day 1 Vita owner!

Depends on how much is a lot, I just checked and theres >1100 titles

 

[orangpelupa]

By that same lack of logic then every single console used a not tried and tested GPU. Afterall, no one but Microsoft used that exact GPU in Xbox One, and no one but Sony used that exact GPU in PS4. Repeat the same logic for PS3, and X360, and WiiU, and Wii, and XBox Original, and PS2, and PSX, and ...

Isn't people arguments is that sony and Microsoft are the one using new tech? And Nintendo that's using tried and tested?

Like wii u with their gpu and cpu tried and tested from wii tried and tested from GameCube.

While sony have not tried and tested cell. But used tried and tested nvidia gpu. Microsoft with x360 use not tried and tested gpu using edram.

But this current gen, Ms and Sony use tried and tested gcn for gpu.

 

[Deleted member 11852]

Depends on how much is a lot, I just checked and theres >1100 titles

There are but unfortunately many are poor mobile ports - rather than Vita game being a port of the PS3/PS4 version, it'll get a bad port of the iOS/Android version. As a Vita owner I'm well aware many games have been announced but I'm very used to Vita ports being cancelled. Recently Galak-Z was cancelled last minute, as was Broforce. You just get used to it.

I doubt many Vita owners bank on game announcements turning into good ports because many games don't make it to Vita at all and of those that do, many will be poor mobile ports or just poor ports for other reasons. There are some great indie games on Vita but the indie scene reality is nowhere near as rosy as that list in the GAF thread makes it look.

 

[Syferz]

Nintendo should use 64bit ARM processors, Jaguar runs very close in performance with A57 and with the WSJ stating that Nintendo is using Industry leading chips, A72 is likely on the table, along with GCN2.

4 core A72 with 4 A53 cores + GCN2 /w 16CU @ 1ghz all on Samsung's 14nm process would be pretty nice. AMD is also releasing APUs this year with HBM, so it wouldn't surprise me if Nintendo went this route for reduced board complexity, also this all translate well to the handheld with fewer cores and lower clocks with 540p screen resolution.

 

[TheLump]

Nintendo should use 64bit ARM processors, Jaguar runs very close in performance with A57 and with the WSJ stating that Nintendo is using Industry leading chips, A72 is likely on the table, along with GCN2.

4 core A72 with 4 A53 cores + GCN2 /w 16CU @ 1ghz all on Samsung's 14nm process would be pretty nice. AMD is also releasing APUs this year with HBM, so it wouldn't surprise me if Nintendo went this route for reduced board complexity, also this all translate well to the handheld with fewer cores and lower clocks with 540p screen resolution.

I'd love to see an APU with HBM powering the NX. But again, this is technology which hasn't actually been tested in the real world, and history shows us that It's not in Nintendo's nature to 'hit & hope'.

Don't get me wrong, I'm sure the new APUs with HBM will work great (indications are that they should) and I'm confident Zen will not be another Bulldozer (again, sounds positive so far)....but then again I've got nothing to lose. Nintendo have a lot riding on this thing and I just can't see them taking too many risks.

I might be wrong, and I hope I am because I like new fangled thingamabobs and whatnot

 

[Syferz]

I'd love to see an APU with HBM powering the NX. But again, this is technology which hasn't actually been tested in the real world, and history shows us that It's not in Nintendo's nature to 'hit & hope'.

Don't get me wrong, I'm sure HBM works great (indications are that it does) and I'm confident Zen will not be another Bulldozer (again, sounds positive so far)....but then again I've got nothing to lose. Nintendo have a lot riding on this thing and I just can't see them taking too many risks.

I might be wrong, and I hope I am because I like new fangled thingamabobs and whatnot

HBM has been in the AMD R9 Nano since last fall hasn't it? coming out over a year later in a console is hardly a risk when AMD is putting them in sub TFLOP APU chips this summer/fall.

 

[Deleted member 13524]

By that same lack of logic then every single console used a not tried and tested GPU. Afterall, no one but Microsoft used that exact GPU in Xbox One, and no one but Sony used that exact GPU in PS4. Repeat the same logic for PS3, and X360, and WiiU, and Wii, and XBox Original, and PS2, and PSX, and ...

Maybe he meant tried and tested IHVs? Before the 3DS' design win somewhere in 2009/2010, DMP was AFAIK a start-up spin-off from academic beginnings.
With all the "tried and tested" options that Nintendo had at the time (nVidia, IMG, Broadcom, ARM, Vivante), no one saw DMP coming.

There are but unfortunately many are poor mobile ports - rather than Vita game being a port of the PS3/PS4 version, it'll get a bad port of the iOS/Android version. As a Vita owner I'm well aware many games have been announced but I'm very used to Vita ports being cancelled.

But the Vita does have an enormous portfolio in Japan.
Localize just one third of the japan-exclusive mecha games and JRPGs and consider me a happy man with the Vita for years to come.

Like wii u with their gpu and cpu tried and tested from wii tried and tested from GameCube.

The Wii U's GPU is "tried and tested" from AMD's Terascale GPUs for the PC market. AFAIK it has very little coming from the ArtX architecture that ended up in the Gamecube and Wii.

Nintendo should use 64bit ARM processors, Jaguar runs very close in performance with A57 and with the WSJ stating that Nintendo is using Industry leading chips, A72 is likely on the table, along with GCN2.

But does Jaguar/Puma consume as much as a Cortex A57 at the same sustained clocks? This article tells me that in Exynos 7420 each Cortex A57 is consuming around 1.3W under full load at 2.1GHz. That's not a really low number if we're dealing with a handheld.
If you want sustainable performance with a low power consumption, your 64bit ARM options are either Cortex A53 or Cortex A35.

4 core A72 with 4 A53 cores + GCN2 /w 16CU @ 1ghz all on Samsung's 14nm process would be pretty nice. AMD is also releasing APUs this year with HBM, so it wouldn't surprise me if Nintendo went this route for reduced board complexity, also this all translate well to the handheld with fewer cores and lower clocks with 540p screen resolution.

I don't know how many times I've stated this in this thread...
big.LITTLE is made for "unpredictable" peaks in a typical smartphone usage. What a console needs is high sustained performance.
Using big.LITTLE in a console would be a waste of resources, unless the console maker was willing to force the game developers to distribute the workload manually between slow and fast cores.

 

[TheLump]

HBM has been in the AMD R9 Nano since last fall hasn't it? coming out over a year later in a console is hardly a risk when AMD is putting them in sub TFLOP APU chips this summer/fall.

Cool, wasn;t aware of that. Although I was talking specifically about the APUs AMD isn't rolling out until later this year, not HBM on it's own. Sorry, not very clear from my post. (I've edited the 2nd paragraph slightly now so it makes more sense)

 

[Syferz]

But does Jaguar/Puma consume as much as a Cortex A57 at the same sustained clocks? This article tells me that in Exynos 7420 each Cortex A57 is consuming around 1.3W under full load at 2.1GHz. That's not a really low number if we're dealing with a handheld.
If you want sustainable performance with a low power consumption, your 64bit ARM options are either Cortex A53 or Cortex A35.

http://images.anandtech.com/doci/9878/power-big_575px.png
4 A72 cores @ 1.5ghz is only 1.5 watts total, but the higher the clock, the higher the power output.

I don't know how many times I've stated this in this thread...
big.LITTLE is made for "unpredictable" peaks in a typical smartphone usage. What a console needs is high sustained performance.
Using big.LITTLE in a console would be a waste of resources, unless the console maker was willing to force the game developers to distribute the workload manually between slow and fast cores.

Even 8 A72 cores is great, you'd only need 4 to out perform jaguar cores, the A53 cores were a way to run the OS in the background while offering developers extra resources with little cost. These are extremely small cores that use up very little power/space and would work great in a handheld when only using the browser or other OS features.

 

[Deleted member 13524]

4 A72 cores @ 1.5ghz is only 1.5 watts total,

A72 != A57, which is what you suggested. Besides, those A72 are built into a SoC using FinFet. There are no Puma cores using that technology so the comparison is moot.

Even 8 A72 cores is great, you'd only need 4 to out perform jaguar cores,

"You'd only need 4 to out perform" how many Jaguar cores? And you're saying that based on what?

the A53 cores were a way to run the OS in the background while offering developers extra resources with little cost. These are extremely small cores that use up very little power/space and would work great in a handheld when only using the browser or other OS features.

Why would you need 4 Cortex A53 to run an OS in the background?

 

[Syferz]

A72 != A57, which is what you suggested. Besides, those A72 are built into a SoC using FinFet. There are no Puma cores using that technology so the comparison is moot.

http://images.anandtech.com/doci/9330/a57-power-curve.png 2.26 watts for 1.5GHz quad core. (These cores perform nearly the same as jaguar cores, sometimes better, sometimes worse but very close.)

"You'd only need 4 to out perform" how many Jaguar cores? And you're saying that based on what?

PS4 uses 6 jaguar cores at 1.6ghz iirc (for games) A72 performs about 15% better than A57 cores, at your suggested 2.3GHz clock (fine for a console, not sure it is needed for a handheld) you'd beat out 6 Jaguar cores @1.6ghz I believe.

Why would you need 4 Cortex A53 to run an OS in the background?

I'm thinking about the handheld and console running the same OS with the same performance (good for browser and when playing games)

 

[Newguy]

PS4 uses 6 jaguar cores at 1.6ghz iirc (for games)

7 now, someone found it 6 weeks ago roughly

"LowLevel API - PS4 - Added FMOD_THREAD_CORE6 to allow access to the newly unlocked 7th core."

http://www.fmod.org/docs/content/generated/common/revision.html

 

[fehu]

unless the console maker was willing to force the game developers to distribute the workload manually between slow and fast cores.

In a post cell era this doesn't sound that much outrageous

 

[Goodtwin]

In a post cell era this doesn't sound that much outrageous

You would think that, but the reality is game developers have more or less got their wish with hardware becoming less and less custom, and more and more PC'ish. If your going to use multiple types of processors, the API had better make this easy to implement. If the developers have to start creating a bunch of custom code to move their game onto the platform, the results are often poor or they shy away from it altogether. With game production turning into an assembly line, I cant imagine developers want anything that isn't pretty straight forward.

 

[Syferz]

You would think that, but the reality is game developers have more or less got their wish with hardware becoming less and less custom, and more and more PC'ish. If your going to use multiple types of processors, the API had better make this easy to implement. If the developers have to start creating a bunch of custom code to move their game onto the platform, the results are often poor or they shy away from it altogether. With game production turning into an assembly line, I cant imagine developers want anything that isn't pretty straight forward.

I guess we should all throw our i5 Intel processors away since there aren't enough cores, developers need one for sound and you can't do that with a weaker core, developers are too spoiled now.

Sorry for the paragraph above, I'm not trying to insult you, just trying to put to light what we are actually talking about here. I agree developers want more processing power, but there is no reason that they need 8 cores when the majority of pc gamers only have 4 threads.

 

[Goodtwin]

I guess we should all throw our i5 Intel processors away since there aren't enough cores, developers need one for sound and you can't do that with a weaker core, developers are too spoiled now.

Sorry for the paragraph above, I'm not trying to insult you, just trying to put to light what we are actually talking about here. I agree developers want more processing power, but there is no reason that they need 8 cores when the majority of pc gamers only have 4 threads.

Certainly. I would assume that developers would actually prefer 4 cores to 8, assuming that's 4 very capable cores versus 8 modest cores. Splitting up the work across multiple cores has to make it tougher. As for NX, that's why I am hoping they go with a quad core CPU, but with each core being much more capable than the Jaguar cores. From what I can tell, its not a simple task to evenly distribute the workload over lots of cores. So in gaming, its very possible to be CPU limited even though multiple cores are only throttling along at 50%.

 

[Syferz]

Certainly. I would assume that developers would actually prefer 4 cores to 8, assuming that's 4 very capable cores versus 8 modest cores. Splitting up the work across multiple cores has to make it tougher. As for NX, that's why I am hoping they go with a quad core CPU, but with each core being much more capable than the Jaguar cores. From what I can tell, its not a simple task to evenly distribute the workload over lots of cores. So in gaming, its very possible to be CPU limited even though multiple cores are only throttling along at 50%.

http://bi9he1w7hz8qbnm2zl0hd171.wpe...ds/2015/04/cortex-a72-vs-core-m-broadwell.png
http://www.technikaffe.de/cpu_vergleich-intel_core_m_5y10c-456-vs-amd_athlon_5150-382

A72 cores are very interesting considering they can be used in both the handheld and console at a good clock and perform well against Jaguar. I just really wanted to show ARM being probably the best option for Nintendo NX and AMD APUs for consoles and handhelds.

 

[Goodtwin]

http://bi9he1w7hz8qbnm2zl0hd171.wpe...ds/2015/04/cortex-a72-vs-core-m-broadwell.png
http://www.technikaffe.de/cpu_vergleich-intel_core_m_5y10c-456-vs-amd_athlon_5150-382

A72 cores are very interesting considering they can be used in both the handheld and console at a good clock and perform well against Jaguar. I just really wanted to show ARM being probably the best option for Nintendo NX and AMD APUs for consoles and handhelds.

I have suspected that Nintendo will use ARM cores for a while now. Just seems to align with their desire to keep the hardware small and power efficient, not to mention its a perfect fit for portable. I have to believe that the portable NX will be a top priority for Nintendo. The 3DS has proved that even though the market for dedicated portable gaming devices has become smaller, its not gone entirely. Having redundancy with hardware components with the console and portable will greatly reduce cost. If Nintendo can successfully combine their two markets, and help broaden their reach with mobile offerings, I believe NX can achieve 3DS like success. Nintendo has sold 20 million 3DS in Japan alone, and Splatoon has single handedly resurrected Wii U sales there as well. The Nintendo brand is actually strong there, and the transition to NX go well there. Having a new Monster Hunter and Splatoon could easily drive sales if released during the launch window. In the west, assuming NX does release this year, launching with Zelda would be an obvious way to have day one interest. I know it will cannibalize the games sales on Wii U, but doesn't that really matter anymore? If it can be a launch title for NX, it should be.

 

[function]

By that definition aren't the PS4 and Xbox One 4K consoles? They can both output 4K.

Don't think they can do 4K @ 60 fps, but even if they could it's really about the software. If Nintendo's AAA titles (Mario, Mario Kart, Mario Tennis, Mario and Sanic at the Olympics) were all trumpeted as being 4K then you could make a far stronger case to the public as being the first "4K console". If Nintendo were to pull a Sony and support UDH BR as well, that might seem pretty cool to some folks, too ...

AMD is also releasing APUs this year with HBM, so it wouldn't surprise me if Nintendo went this route for reduced board complexity, also this all translate well to the handheld with fewer cores and lower clocks with 540p screen resolution.

Don't think their HBM APUs are due till Zen, some time in 2017.

Zen will get a paper launch in the dying days of this year, availability is now set to be Q1 2017. Knowing AMD that probably means April 2nd.