Nintendo announce: Nintendo NX

[Grall]

Is there a scenario where you guys actually see NX being successful?

Not really, no, but if NX was to be broadly comparable to PS4/xbone it would do better than it will if it is just a warmed-over wii u. This because it would facilitate third-party ports to the platform. If NX is wii u in disguise, there won't be a single fucking third-party game released for it apart from some mario party-like shovelware and such. Nobody is spending money to develop from scratch for a piece of mid-aughts era console tech (old radeon 4K series GPU; only DX10 capable.)

Nintendo will never be able to compete strongly on their own with their own hardware anymore because they don't have the online features needed to capture today's audience. They don't believe in online, they don't even actually understand it on a fundamental level; they would all prefer if it would simply go away. Nintendo wouldn't even have any online features at all if they could at all avoid it (other than an eShop of course, because they love to buff their own margins at everybody else's expense.)

The way I see it, Nintendo should go full-blown, balls-out third party and forget about releasing any more hardware, unless it's a gamepad for smart devices, because nobody knows ergonomics and attention to gaming detail like Nintendo. IMO anyway.

 

[wco81]

It almost has to be a new paradigm, like the Wii.

Or the iPhone, redefining smart phones.

Even if it matched or slightly exceeded the PS4, it's starting behind, in terms of games available for it. So why would people choose it over an established system which is getting good support already and has a lot of games in the pipeline for it?

 

[Cyan]

Is there a scenario where you guys actually see NX being successful? I here a lot of people claiming that Nintendo needs to offer what Sony/Microsoft offer, preferable with better specs, but do you really think that is a recipe for success? Gamecube was more or less on par with the Xbox and PS2, but was Nintendo's worst selling console to date (Wii U will take that title in a couple of years). Gamecube actually did have the majority of third party games, and had all of Nintendo's best first party games, and was the lowest priced console, and it still didn't sell well. So if you were in charge, what would you offer and why would consumers choose it instead of a PS4 or X1? Or if you don't believe it will be a direct competitor, what is your foundation for believing that will work.

GC belongs to an era were it was middle of the ground hardware, not the best not the worst, but didn't offer multimedia capabilities while the others had built-in DVD.

Recipe of success for Nintendo is imho, offering something original like the Wii -I didn't like it that much, but it was perfect for families and their kids- with a decent CPU to have games running at a good framerate, a gadget measuring body parameters like fat or how many calories you are burning, specs for hardcore gamers, and better 3rd party partnerships.

Don't let CoD and BF guys even look at you, and there you have it, a success.

 

[liolio]

Not really, no, but if NX was to be broadly comparable to PS4/xbone it would do better than it will if it is just a warmed-over wii u. This because it would facilitate third-party ports to the platform. If NX is wii u in disguise, there won't be a single fucking third-party game released for it apart from some mario party-like shovelware and such. Nobody is spending money to develop from scratch for a piece of mid-aughts era console tech (old radeon 4K series GPU; only DX10 capable.)

Thrid party attitude toward the system depends more on instal base than on technical merit of the system. There might have been more games released since the WiiU launch on ps360 than on the WiiU. I won't argue much though as I overall agree with this post as a whole. There is no way to salvage anything from the WiiU hardware, the CPU is an evolutionary dead-end, the GPU is old and its perfs per mm2 and Watts are bad, it is a non UMA design.

Nintendo will never be able to compete strongly on their own with their own hardware anymore because they don't have the online features needed to capture today's audience. They don't believe in online, they don't even actually understand it on a fundamental level; they would all prefer if it would simply go away. Nintendo wouldn't even have any online features at all if they could at all avoid it (other than an eShop of course, because they love to buff their own margins at everybody else's expense.)

I agree it is true for the home console, for the handheld I believe there is still room for their product, actually I believe the handheld market size is below what it should be because of inappropriate policies ( games prices, systems prices, etc.).

The way I see it, Nintendo should go full-blown, balls-out third party and forget about releasing any more hardware, unless it's a gamepad for smart devices, because nobody knows ergonomics and attention to gaming detail like Nintendo. IMO anyway.

They may have no choice depending on how NX turns out.

-----------------------------

Spoiler

My real pov is that Sony is more likely to address the handheld properly than Nintendo but it is MIcrosoft that should do it, they need so much a product to back-up their efforts in the mobile realm.

 

[Goodtwin]

Its interesting to me that we have such strong opinions on what people think Nintendo should do, when no one really seems that confident in that strategy working. Two consoles already cater to third parties, so adding another doesn't seem likely to produce better profits for Nintendo.

I still like my idea for Nintendo partnering with cable providers to include the NX gaming hardware acting as a cable box. It instantly gives them a large usebase, and gives their partners a more complete entertainment package to offer their customers. The consoles power becomes less relevant, because the market they are going after is much more blue ocean strategy than the core market. Third parties would probably be more than willing to support it with their older games at the very least, similar to how Nvidia Shield is getting some pretty good older games. This would give more reasoning to Nintendo's forecast of 20 million units first year, and the idea that this is something that hasn't really been done yet. I know its a stretch, but I think it makes a lot of sense in an era where selling hardware directly to the consumer is getting very though to do at a profit.

 

[liolio]

Its interesting to me that we have such strong opinions on what people think Nintendo should do, when no one really seems that confident in that strategy working. Two consoles already cater to third parties, so adding another doesn't seem likely to produce better profits for Nintendo.

Well not sure who you are speaking to but Nintendo has been doing a good job at cornering itself, they are between a rock and a hard place, even on the handhled side of things they are more than late to react to the mobile gaming revolution. Since it is clear to everybody that phones and tablets are taking a market Nintendo could address, Nintendo did not adapt in the slightest but release two DS declinations (one is a cost cutting minor efforts, the 2DS, but the new 3DS is a significant effort).

 

[Rikimaru]

I still like my idea for Nintendo partnering with cable providers to include the NX gaming hardware acting as a cable box.

What is a cable box? afaik most people in Jp and Eu use tuners inside TV. That's US centric thinking.

I have CI+ card in my TV for cable. Most do not even have it.

 

[Goodtwin]

What is a cable box? afaik most people in Jp and Eu use tuners inside TV. That's US centric thinking.

I have CI+ card in my TV for cable. Most do not even have it.

I didn't know that. Well, I knew that strategy was a stretch anyway, but I didn't realize that much of the world doesn't use cable/satellite boxes for their services. Here in the US, other than basic cable, you must use a box. So as far as a world wide strategy, it doesn't seem so good anymore. LOL

 

[Syferz]

Is there a scenario where you guys actually see NX being successful? I here a lot of people claiming that Nintendo needs to offer what Sony/Microsoft offer, preferable with better specs, but do you really think that is a recipe for success? Gamecube was more or less on par with the Xbox and PS2, but was Nintendo's worst selling console to date (Wii U will take that title in a couple of years). Gamecube actually did have the majority of third party games, and had all of Nintendo's best first party games, and was the lowest priced console, and it still didn't sell well. So if you were in charge, what would you offer and why would consumers choose it instead of a PS4 or X1? Or if you don't believe it will be a direct competitor, what is your foundation for believing that will work.

Nintendo's problem is droughts (they simply can't support 2 platforms by themselves), marketing, storefront (space for Nintendo products), and for consoles: No 3rd party support.

Nintendo can solve all of these problems by dropping a platform, luckily this doesn't mean dropping a formfactor anymore, you just simply move to a single platform with multiple devices. Nintendo produces over 20 games a year for their platforms and they have good 3rd party support on their handhelds. Also looking at sales, their handhelds have always sold well, even the 3DS which had a horrible launch and a large drought is still going to outsell NES (Nintendo's second best selling console of all time) looking at their brand as a platform, I think this is exactly what gamers really want from Nintendo, it isn't a hybrid and the console can be multiple times more powerful than the handheld, so there is a real desire for people to pick up and play their games on any formfactor they choose. They would have to release a single physical media, for this I'd suggest gamecards at 16GBs, 32GBs and possibly even 64GBs if needed in the future.

THE MOST IMPORTANT PARTS:
1. Nintendo has to release their entire 1st and 2nd party library across the platform regardless of formfactor.
2. Nintendo has to be very clear that the platform isn't just the formfactor they release first and that it has a long future, a decade or more old, and obsolete your hardware exactly like android and iOS do it, as the market is use to and understand this.

As for N.E.R.D. question fourthstorm, I'd guess they are working on a cloud based save system and messaging system, NERD and NST are working with DeNA on various components of the NX's software, so I'd venture to guess that NERD is very involved with some sort of chat functionality, as they did Wii U's video conference app.

As for tech, they should use AMD SoC for the first devices out of the platform, a Nintendo handheld and console can realistically sell 20 million hardware units, 3DS sold 15m with huge slow downs in its first year, and supporting 1 platform means a large verity of games coming out for the platform, it also means Nintendo wouldn't have to put resources on the same IP back to back like MarioKart 7 and 8. 128 shader units @ 500mhz for the handheld targeting a 540p screen is going to look very similar to Wii U, especially when efficiency of newer architecture is taken into consideration. 512 shaders for the console is fine (8CUs) clocked at 1GHz would give it very close to XB1 while not competing with those devices. This is my hopefully specs because it would be a very powerful, forward thinking platform that can add new devices as innovations are made and tech is needed.

I'd like to also point to Nintendo hiring a SoC expert to find the future components of Nintendo's hardware over a year ago.

 

[liolio]

128 shader units @ 500mhz

Won't happen in a portable form factor, Teemash runs 225MHz, newer version Beema higher end version max speed is 300MHz or so

Ps I've a tough time remember those CPU names may be incorrect-ish.

 

[Goodtwin]

@Syferz

I very much agree with your post, and agree that Nintendo will be tearing down its own boundaries by opening up its software lineup to more pieces of hardware. Not saying that every game will be available for every platform they sell, but many of them will. No longer are we creating Mario 3D Land for the portable, and then another complete development cycle is spent on Mario 3D World for the console. Same with Mario Kart and Smash Bros. Splatoon doing very well means Nintendo loosen up a bit, and create new IP's more often. I do think initially Wii U will be included in this approach. The majority of launch NX games will also be available on Wii U. Zelda will likely be a launch game for NX, but will still release on Wii U as well. The Mario Galaxy team has been in hiding for quite some time, and that bodes well for a new 3D Mario game at launch. As long as Nintendo consolidates it software development into one ecosystem, it will make transitioning from one piece of Nintendo hardware to the next very easily. If the console is launching first, and the portable in 2017, that allows them extra time for the portable hardware to progress, and reduce the chasm in performance to a more comfortable level.

 

[Deleted member 13524]

Won't happen in a portable form factor, Teemash runs 225MHz, newer version Beema higher end version max speed is 300MHz or so

Ps I've a tough time remember those CPU names may be incorrect-ish.

You forgot that 2013's Temash was replaced by Mullins during 2014?

The A10 Micro-6700T has 4 Puma cores at 1.2-2.2GHz and 2 GCN CUs at 500MHz. It's a 2.5W SDP / 4.5W TDP SoC.

Though that chip would probably be eaten alive in gaming performance by the likes of Exynos 7420 and Snapdragon 810 nowadays.

 

[liolio]

You forgot that 2013's Temash was replaced by Mullins during 2014?

The A10 Micro-6700T has 4 Puma cores at 1.2-2.2GHz and 2 GCN CUs at 500MHz. It's a 2.5W SDP / 4.5W TDP SoC.

Though that chip would probably be eaten alive in gaming performance by the likes of Exynos 7420 and Snapdragon 810 nowadays.

Sadly AMD has move to industry standard and quote max turbo speed... The gain are pretty ludicrous. Sadly Anandtech got its hand on the reference AMD "Discovery" tablet last year in April, the lack of products (tablets) using those parts tell a different story. May be the price is wrong or those are the performances of the highest bin parts, we can't tell .

 

[Goodtwin]

Doesn't AMD's Carrizo APU lineup seem to make sense for NX? Reduced power consumption compared to older Kaveri APU's, and the bulldozer CPU cores are supposedly much improved. We are talking about a 35w APU, and that's very Nintendo'ish. Not to mention they are using both ARM and X86 chips on their SoC. So in theory the NX portable could use ARM, and the console could use the X86 processor. One thing I do see with all these APU's is the DDR3 memory, so perhaps Nintendo could use 2GB of GDDR5 memory, and 4 GB of DDR3 memory. We should see Carrizo powered laptops and notebooks later this year, I guess then we will see just how well these chips stack up.

 

[Rikimaru]

Carrizo has modules. So only 2 FPUs. Not very suited for a console.
Carrizo-L with Puma+ cores maybe (full 4 FPUs, but weaker cores overall).

But I think Nintendo digs older models.

 

[Grall]

But I think Nintendo digs older models.

Knowing Nintendo, if they were gonna go x86 they'd insist on original phenom cores.

 

[pjbliverpool]

Carrizo has modules. So only 2 FPUs. Not very suited for a console.
Carrizo-L with Puma+ cores maybe (full 4 FPUs, but weaker cores overall).

But I think Nintendo digs older models.

The Bulldozer FPU's are much faster and more capable so that shouldn't matter.

 

[function]

A bulldozer module can do 2 x 128 bit SIMD per clock, so matching 2 Jag cores.

In practice the Carrizo should also have much higher IPC and outperform Jaguar cores even at the same speed.

 

[Goodtwin]

A bulldozer module can do 2 x 128 bit SIMD per clock, so matching 2 Jag cores.

In practice the Carrizo should also have much higher IPC and outperform Jaguar cores even at the same speed.

Yep, and since so much work is being shifted to the GPU these days, the CPU's floating point performance seems to be getting less and less valuable, assuming of course you have a very capable GPU. Speaking of gaming of course. After reading about Naughty Dog shifting a bunch of work from the CPU to the GPU on The Last of US remaster for PS4 made it clear how much smaller the CPU's role will be going forward. When you can take advantage of compute shaders, and get a 2-3x performance boost, its obvious that the workload is better suited there.

On the Carrizo, sounds like they have also implemented some new compression techniques to reduce bandwidth requirements to memory. With this being the case, NX may be able to get away with still using DDR3 memory on a 128bit bus. Rumors suggest not competing with PS4 in terms of processing power, so I think its safe to assume a sub 1Tflop GPU is likely being chosen. Seeing as how the Wii U is 176Gflop, even going to a 600Gflop GPU would be a big bump for Nintendo. Especially if they are shooting for a super low price.

 

[Rikimaru]

A bulldozer module can do 2 x 128 bit SIMD per clock, so matching 2 Jag cores.

In practice the Carrizo should also have much higher IPC and outperform Jaguar cores even at the same speed.

But is not bulldozer a much larger chip? Like Cortex A15, A7 difference. There is a reason why current gen consoles on Jaguars and not bulldozer. There were rumours that PS4 was originally on 4 bulddozer cores.