Nintendo 3DS business/general talk *spin-off feat. 3DS as a P.I. in New Orleans

[Jedi2016]

The problem with comparing phone games to handheld games is the difference in market. The handheld market is NOT the same thing as the casual market that phone games are aimed at. And it's also not the same as the console market.. it's a totally different market, somewhere in between the others. Nintendo seems to be the only ones that understand this.

 

[Brad Grenz]

Markets aren't perfectly discreet things. There is always overlap and the rise of smart phones as a gaming platform is a new and incredibly disruptive change in the industry. To pretend they don't effect one another is to profoundly misunderstand what is going on. If Nintendo wasn't worried about iOS and Android, they wouldn't be going to GDC to talk shit about 99 cent games or dismissing "garage developers".

 

[eastmen]

Angry birds this , Angry birds that . How many Angry bird level sucesses are out there ? Are there going to be hundreds of Angry birds each year ?

 

[Entropy]

Angry birds this , Angry birds that . How many Angry bird level sucesses are out there ? Are there going to be hundreds of Angry birds each year ?

There are a surprising amount of high volume sellers, probably because being inexpensive, the barrier for trying something that seems interesting is low. The fixation on Angry Birds is your own. I'm playing Dead Space (iPad), Ascendancy and above all DungeonRaid, plus a rotation of tryouts, some of which are hits, some of which are quite niche. Angry Birds is simply a game that is known outside the iOS user base.

Just before the launch of the iPad2, the developers of "World of Goo" published a long blogpost about their experience publishing WoG for the iPad. One of their more interesting points was regarding pricing. They found that they made more money at a lower price point. And looking at what they had learned, they concluded that they would avoid launching high and discounting later, and that it would be more profitable to simply launch at the lower price. Also notable was that in spite of the then small installed base of iPads, their sales volume on the platform was greater than on either consoles or PC.

The App Store provides an alternative business model. Arguably a better one for consumers and developers, but downplaying or even eliminating publishers, distributors and retailers. Now where does the money in the business ultimately come from? And where is the creativity? Unless you're critically dependent on the old business model, the downplaying of the middlemen is a beacon of hope for the future.

 

[eastmen]

There are a surprising amount of high volume sellers, probably because being inexpensive, the barrier for trying something that seems interesting is low. The fixation on Angry Birds is your own. I'm playing Dead Space (iPad), Ascendancy and above all DungeonRaid, plus a rotation of tryouts, some of which are hits, some of which are quite niche. Angry Birds is simply a game that is known outside the iOS user base.

Angry birds didn't make its money by selling alot on andriod. Its free so of course its downloaded alot . But angry birds makes its money by people using it often and the adds being shown. Not how many times its downloaded.

Just before the launch of the iPad2, the developers of "World of Goo" published a long blogpost about their experience publishing WoG for the iPad. One of their more interesting points was regarding pricing. They found that they made more money at a lower price point. And looking at what they had learned, they concluded that they would avoid launching high and discounting later, and that it would be more profitable to simply launch at the lower price. Also notable was that in spite of the then small installed base of iPads, their sales volume on the platform was greater than on either consoles or PC.

Thats great , but could they have launched World of Goo at the ipad price points if it wasn't first released on consoles and pcs ?

I've read articles in wired about how hard it is to make money on the app store. I doubt its as rosey as those here want to paint it .

The App Store provides an alternative business model. Arguably a better one for consumers and developers, but downplaying or even eliminating publishers, distributors and retailers. Now where does the money in the business ultimately come from? And where is the creativity? Unless you're critically dependent on the old business model, the downplaying of the middlemen is a beacon of hope for the future.

Or it doesn't except for a few who manage to rise to the top

I dunno mabye things have gotten better .... Or mabye we are still hearing only the cinderella storys and not the ugly step sisters


http://www.newsweek.com/2009/10/05/striking-it-rich-is-there-an-app-for-that.html

 

[Entropy]

Angry birds didn't make its money by selling alot on andriod. Its free so of course its downloaded alot . But angry birds makes its money by people using it often and the adds being shown. Not how many times its downloaded.

On iOS, where it's made its money, it is $0.99 game. It will be interesting to see when it breaks 100 million downloads.

Thats great , but could they have launched World of Goo at the ipad price points if it wasn't first released on consoles and pcs ?

It's a long article where they disclose a lot of statistics, but the conclusion is rather that the next time around they could let iOS lead. (Or even be exclusive, if the volume of the market grows enough.) But of course there are a ton of business angles to these decisions, the value of the article is rather that they disclose so much early data publicly.

I've read articles in wired about how hard it is to make money on the app store. I doubt its as rosey as those here want to paint it .]

Well, I don't know about rosy. It's very competitive for sure, but it is also dynamic. The big thing is that it is open to all - if a russian guy comes up with a game idea for a console, how would he get it published and distributed? What shelf space could he hope for at your local GameStop? But on the App Store he can simply publish Doodle Jump, get immediate world wide distribution and hope to generate a buzz.

It used to be that the big publishers were hesitant, but now EA for instance offers 125 (!!) titles for the iPhone. They have ported some of their top level content, and it will be interesting to see how long it takes for large budget original titles to appear. At least iOS gives some hope for something original to come from the big publishers rather than SomethingOrOther 4:The Dark Menace.
But it is not as if the big publishers were terribly missed, and that's really the headline story. They will have to compete on content and price, not their hammerlock on distribution.

Edit: Given the thread title, I think we should try to avoid an iOS discussion, and focus on the overall gaming landscape as it may affect the 3DS.

 

[eastmen]

On iOS, where it's made its money, it is $0.99 game. It will be interesting to see when it breaks 100 million downloads.

and it was only at 12m downloads on IOS at the start of the year. The vast majority of downloads are the free verison on andriod.

It's a long article where they disclose a lot of statistics, but the conclusion is rather that the next time around they could let iOS lead. (Or even be exclusive, if the volume of the market grows enough.) But of course there are a ton of business angles to these decisions, the value of the article is rather that they disclose so much early data publicly.

Like i said the andriod verison is able to priced at a certian point because it made money on other platforms. Can andriod / ios verison work if its the sole source of income is from that release ?

Well, I don't know about rosy. It's very competitive for sure, but it is also dynamic. The big thing is that it is open to all - if a russian guy comes up with a game idea for the 3DS, how would he get it published and distributed? What shelf space could he hope for at your local GameStop? But on the App Store he can simply publish Doodle Jump, get immediate world wide distribution and hope to generate a buzz.

you do know they will have 3DS ware . So the russian guy can put his game on the 3DS on the 3DS ware

It used to be that the big publishers were hesitant, but now EA for instance offers 125 (!!) titles for the iPhone. They have ported some of their top level content, and it will be interesting to see how long it takes for large budget original titles to appear. At least iOS gives some hope for something original to come from the big publishers rather than SomethingOrOther 4:The Dark Menace.
But it is not as if the big publishers were terribly missed, and that's really the headline story. They will have to compete on content and price, not on their hammerlock on distribution.

Yes but will the support continue even if these titles start failing.

Publishers are already unhappy with the state of the IOS market for every angry birds there are dozens of others that fail to make a profit and even those have dozens of clones.

Hell my gf has been playing Panda's vs ninjas and its exactly like angry birds. In fact alot of people i know pased on angry birds rio because there are free clones out there.

 

[Brad Grenz]

you do know they will have 3DS ware . So the russian guy can put his game on the 3DS on the 3DS ware

No he can't. He'd need a 3DS devkit, for one. If he's lucky, he'll need to be a successful, established iOS developer before Nintendo will even return his emails. Where he will be is the NGP since he can publish his game for both Android and the NGP through PS Suite at the same time.

 

[Xmas]

I've read articles in wired about how hard it is to make money on the app store. I doubt its as rosey as those here want to paint it .

Of course it's hard to make money, as it should be in a competitive market.

 

[Entropy]

you do know they will have 3DS ware . So the russian guy can put his game on the 3DS on the 3DS ware

Both Nintendo and Sony has seen the value in offering a cheaper download service for games, that is true. That's not their main thrust though, none of the titles used for the promotion of the 3DS (or the NGP for that matter) belonged to this group. It was all high cost titles produced either in-house or by their business partners.

Yes but will the support continue even if these titles start failing.

Of course. There is no way they are going to default a market like this to their competitors. They may need to change their practises a bit though, which is not necessarily a bad thing for anyone involved.

Publishers are already unhappy with the state of the IOS market for every angry birds there are dozens of others that fail to make a profit and even those have dozens of clones.

It's not surprising that publishers are grappling with the iOS market (the Android market is probably even worse). Traditionally, the link of the chain from creators to consumers that publishers fulfill is distribution and marketing. With digital downloads, their distribution network provides no benefit, nor do their ability to fill stores with their marketing material or affect retailers with internal promotion efforts. Nintendo (and Sony) need to think hard about the future and the validity of trying to use parallell business models, if they need to cripple the new one in order to protect the old.

It is a symptom of the weakness of the old model that the publishers owns the content creators.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Question to everyone contributing to this discussion - Which of these games could be made and generate a decent return on iOS, and how would the economies work (price and units of sales, indie, developer, publisher, etc.):

Patapon
Locoroco
Super Stardust HD
Fat Princess
Gran Turismo
Uncharted

 

[DuckThor Evil]

Question to everyone contributing to this discussion - Which of these games could be made and generate a decent return on iOS, and how would the economies work (price and units of sales, indie, developer, publisher, etc.):

Patapon
Locoroco
Super Stardust HD
Fat Princess
Gran Turismo
Uncharted

I got a decent deal on a first gen IPad, 64GB 3G for 460€. It has now further convinced me that the competition should be afraid.

If Apple ever releases a wireless controller as an accessory for the iOS family, then all those games could be made, they would need higher pricepoints for some of them though and some budget control. Games like the biggest 1st party exclusives serve other purposes for the publisher than just selling itself, so the budget can be loose, still a pricepoint like 19,90-29,90$/€ should make most reasonable projects possible. The iOS base is growing really fast so the future potential is pretty big. Apple now has the HDMI TV-out for these devices as well.

With the iPad 2 (iphone and touch should follow) having a lot more GPU power, I can see them starting to put more focus in the gaming realm.

 

[AlphaWolf]

for what Apple wants for connecting your iPad to your TV and then buying a wireless controller you could buy a console.

 

[DuckThor Evil]

for what Apple wants for connecting your iPad to your TV and then buying a wireless controller you could buy a console.

Yes Apple sure likes to overcharge you in a lot places, however they are not stupid, they do that because they can and making a push in gaming is a question of what they will do instead of what they can do, it's basically up to them at this point. I'd be concerned if I was competing against them.

 

[tongue_of_colicab]

for what Apple wants for connecting your iPad to your TV and then buying a wireless controller you could buy a console.

More like a console, 50'' tv and surround sound system. A iPad alone is already more expensive than a console.

Really, only the biggest of the appel lover crowd will ever buy into the idea of buying some kind of docking station and controller so they can play ipad games on their tv.

Seriously, anybody interrested in gaming enough to go out and buy a controller knows that gaming on a ipad sucks ass. Whatever way you are trying to put it, ipad games just don't have anywhere near the quality of console games. Why buy a 500 euro ipad and spend another load of money on the extra stuff you need when you can look on ebay and get a ps2 with 15 awsome games for 150 euros? Its far cheaper. It looks better. It plays better and is just a lot more fun for anybody who likes something above the level of angry birds.

 

[DuckThor Evil]

More like a console, 50'' tv and surround sound system. A iPad alone is already more expensive than a console.

Really, only the biggest of the appel lover crowd will ever buy into the idea of buying some kind of docking station and controller so they can play ipad games on their tv.

It's not just ipad The ios devices concists of touch and iphone aswell. The quality of their hardware and software is going up and so is the amount of "lover crowd". Don't get me wrong I find a lot of their practices appaling, but the times where the other guys could just shrug them off is over.

Let's see what happens, but I wouldn't be surprised if Apple has a pretty big presence in gaming in five years.

 

[Entropy]

for what Apple wants for connecting your iPad to your TV and then buying a wireless controller you could buy a console.

When we have the actual numbers, lets use them. It's $39.00. From Apple.

 

[tongue_of_colicab]

It's not just ipad The ios devices concists of touch and iphone aswell. The quality of their hardware and software is going up and so is the amount of "lover crowd". Don't get me wrong I find a lot of their practices appaling, but the times where the other guys could just shrug them off is over.

Let's see what happens, but I wouldn't be surprised if Apple has a pretty big presence in gaming in five years.

Why do you think so?

I don't see a reason for it happening. Like I said, once you start doing what you talk about you are basically aiming at ''gamers''. Even if we take the least demanding group, casuals, you are still stuck with the following problems. Price. Why buy a 500+ euro iWhatever device when you can get a console for half that? LIfecycle. Do you believe your 2011 iWhatever is capable of running Fifa 2014? No. Buy a console and you are playing fifa for the next decade without upgrading. Not to mention that a portable device will just never be as good as a stand alone console.

Now maybe it will work for the ''non gamers'' growd. But really, in that case there is no need for a controller or docking station as those people will be just as glad playing on the iWhatever the way it is.

 

[DuckThor Evil]

Why do you think so?

I don't see a reason for it happening. Like I said, once you start doing what you talk about you are basically aiming at ''gamers''. Even if we take the least demanding group, casuals, you are still stuck with the following problems. Price. Why buy a 500+ euro iWhatever device when you can get a console for half that? LIfecycle. Do you believe your 2011 iWhatever is capable of running Fifa 2014? No. Buy a console and you are playing fifa for the next decade without upgrading. Not to mention that a portable device will just never be as good as a stand alone console.

Now maybe it will work for the ''non gamers'' growd. But really, in that case there is no need for a controller or docking station as those people will be just as glad playing on the iWhatever the way it is.

I'm not saying that in five years only Apple exists but the reasons for me believing that they will be significant are following:

Apple has gotten huge amount of success with their ios devices in a relatively short amount of time and all the projections are seeing the trend just shooting up. They are already selling a huge amount of these units and the rate just keeps going up and up. Huge install base creates benefits and in a few years the installed base should be quite staggering and consisting of a quite cabable hardware, at that point there should be a market for more demanding customers as well.

The touch model brings the price of entry to a low and affordable level. It already does a lot of things and now you can connect it to an hdtv aswell, if they release a wireless controller for that, it already is somewhat cabable gaming system, the next model should be pretty big upgrade and with ever increasing sales developers big and small will pay attention. EA already has a lot of stuff there, and the quality is going up.

The Apple crowd seems to be unusually happy to upgrade often, while the used items retain their value quite well making the upgrade easier. If Apple wants to push it they now got plenty of power behind them.
The overall business model might be different, but in the end when you count the amount of people playing and the amount of money involved, it's looking good for them.

I think Apple can make Shiftys grand vision into reality

 

[AlphaWolf]

When we have the actual numbers, lets use them. It's $39.00. From Apple.

Seeing as how we have reality, lets use that.

It's $39 for a dongle that has an HMDI out.

Where's your apple branded controller? you think they'll be as reasonable on their price for that? If so I expect it would come in at around $100.