NGGP: NextGen Garbage Pile (aka: No one reads the topics or stays on topic) *spawn*
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In this case I'd expect processor refers to a DSP or some other dedicated, custom processor. It should be quite easy to include a processor that's specifically designed for this purpose that would outperform 4 CUs, be smaller, and use less power.
No, he's saying that posters making definitive statements about a subject that they have incomplete information and a poor level of understanding of is stupid and is leading to unenlightening and unproductive discussions.
Well good for you and what you think and hope to believe with your gel.
Has there been any technical details or rumors that show Sony provides for custom audio in their silicon budget? I have yet to see any at all.
Lucid_Dreamer
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That would be interesting to see.
That's not what I'm saying/asking. I know what he said. Think of it as a jigsaw puzzle. Once you have a certain amount of pieces, it makes other possibilities less likely or impossible. Do we not have a frame built, yet? I like that answer to be scientifically justify. Random grumbling won't do.
In other words, X takes Y amount of space. At a certain amount of mm2, yields would not be usable for an APU. That makes this or that addition a good possibility or a highly unlikely possibility. Do you see what I'm saying?
VGLeaks mentions audio DSP and video encode/decode in PS3, and ZLib compression too. It's remarkably similar what functional units are said to be present in both boxes!
I guess that's a case of great minds thinking alike. Both MS and Sony would have analysed current workloads, probably future engine requirements, and seen the same requirements of a console and looked to most efficient custom ASICs to solve key aspects. Either that or we'll hear a merger and Orbis == Durango, with Durango being low end and Orbis being high end.
That's fair, but we just haven't enough info at this point. eg. Wii U discussion, it was obvious from the first clear leaks that it was PS360 level, and subsequent arguing didn't have merit. At the moment in Orbis vs. Durango, there's not enough info. We don't know how the pieces fit together properly. As I say, even the technical workings of Durango's hardware structure doesn't tell us how the software fits in and what available, and we're fairly in the dark regards Orbis's particulars. I don't know what the workloads of the developers will be or how they'll find a way to fit those workloads to the available hardwares, so we can't determine likely real-world performance differences.
This is not an issue that you could solve with hardware. It is a content creation issue.
It seems that you have not understood anything I wrote, or maybe haven't even read it at all. I'm not willing to participate in such a 'discussion' any longer.
To extend your jigsaw analogy. People have made their judgement of the difficulty of the jigsaw puzzle based on the number of pieces. So, then we find out that the pieces have a similar basic design, with the puzzle with the smaller number of pieces having some additional complexity in some pieces that could add to the difficulty of the puzzle. This doesn't change the fundamental nature of the puzzles, but with certain pieces more difficult to fit, it changes the relative overall difficulty of the two puizzles. Meanwhile, we don't know what the picture/pattern is on either of the puzzles or the overall shape. "Oh crap! One of the puzzles is ROUND! No corner pieces!".
Yes, and those are useful discussions to have. The thing is, some important characteristics like total chip area or even single chip vs. multi-chip design have still not been made known (that I can recall). What's too complex for one chip may be reasonable for two (or more), but multiple chips may be too expensive, create too much motherboard complexity, etc. There's a very small subset of the participants on this board with the depth of knowledge on all of the aspects of these platforms to speak authoritatively about what's possible or impossible in these designs. And some of them are bound by NDA. So the bulk of us should be asking more questions and making fewer declarative statements.
Averagejoe
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This is clasic people interpreting things like they want,Sweetvar26 actually say after saying that,that he didn't say durando was more powerful in fact he say that some people think durango was more powerful base on ram configuration,probably they saw 8 vs 2 gb and asume durando was more powerful.
All are interpreting things like they want.
It is an interesting point for XBL nextgen though. Perhaps they can add a little something to spice up online gaming. In return, they get to bring PC gaming and console gaming together.
Yes. Rumored Orbis audio decoder performs at roughly half of 1 SPU (200000 vs 400000 MP3 streams)
Rumored Durango audio decoder may adopt some unique approach, but details are lacking.
I am rather interested in nextgen tools and workflow setup. Someone should get you to write a piece. 8^D
I'm not clinging to anything. Ihave no emotional investment in any of these boxes; only an emotional investment in intelligent behaviour and how catastrophically absent it is in this thread!
In contrast to those already taking sides on which is better, I'm able to entertain the notion that we haven't enough information to make any rational comparisons. And I'm (futilely) pointing out that people isolating components without understand the full system-level picture are completely failing to understand console architecture. As mentioned elsewhere, what if Durango is TBDR and focussed on tile-based virtual texturing? Suddenly those BW comparisons don't mean much. And what if Kinect has its own processor while those 4 CUs in Orbis are doing imaging work for Sony? Then that 4 CU advantage doesn't contribute anything more than MS is doing with a different arrangement of silicon. Without that info we can't make a valid comparison as to final performance.
But by all means go ahead and jump to conclusions. Much like people did looking at RSX+Cell uber flops numbers versus XB360, where XB360 merrily kicked PS3 in the nether-regions in many titles because the whole system was a better design taken as how it enabled developers to crunch numbers and produce on-screen results. Orbis has 50% bigger numbers, ergo it's 50% better.Irrefutable, naive, flawed logic by those on both sides of the fence.
Agreed.
And while I am skeptical about Durango there are some things up in the air, the most obvious what will the final specs be in the shipping product? What is the final architecture? What is the nature of the Orbis 14+4? And what sort of "gotchas" have not been disclosed?
Someone mentioned earlier in this thread the ESRAM and DMEs are not special and are just for function (I believe linking to DF). All and good, but if (a) DMEs are performing memory management so the compute units can continue performing compute tasks that is a utilization difference. How much? We don't know yet but it isn't irrelevant. Which leads to (b) if the ESRAM has exceptionally low latencies an unknown percentage of Texture and Compute idle time can be captured just by avoiding the long thousand+ cycle delays to system memory. Then there are various design issues that may help; you mentioned hybrid TBDR but another issue is partially resident textures (or managed virtual texturing) could allow your entire frame's textures to reside in the 32MB. Likewise being able to stick a large portion of the framebuffer and depthbuffer and run fast post processes techniques should be a win, too.
If the above is true then if it comes down to a 12CU Durango vs. 14CU Orbis I don't think it is a wash--I think Durango may have some sizable gains if the developers have the tools to take advantage of it. If anything, the one thing I have heard a couple times is low latency ESRAM is important for compute and the design should allow fast 4xMSAA at 720p as well as good quality AF (yes I heard some developers are targeting 720p).
Anyways, I think you are right to point out that the specs, like bandwidth, are related to architecture. I think the Durango specs are low (silicon investment for core gaming is too low for my tastes) and on paper, architecture aside, Orbis looks hands down better (but not enough to 2x framerate or 2x resolution) and a big concern is Orbis is a simple design and Durango may require sizable effort to avoid nasty memory pool issues. We don't know enough yet to know how MS is going to avoid these--either they learned their lessons with tiling or MS just built an entire system around too-small of memory with the intent to irritate developers and tank performance.
No, it wouldn't. Kinect gets 3D for "free". The rumored dual camera pseye would have to run a very heavy DSP-like algorithm on their frames to get a similar functionality to what the depth camera just gives you every frame. It's not something that would fit into the tiny silicon budget you put on the camera itself, and I doubt if 4 CUs could even do it in real time at full resolution.
Averagejoe
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Love_In_Rio
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Anyway if not this year it will be in the next: the shit is going to be VR glasses and for that move 2.0 is very useful as a controller and kinect for self awareness in a virtual world.So they shoul merge each other!.
I think the key is that they are not looking for similar functionality to a depth camera. They don't need to know 'pixel A is 6.54 feet from the screen' but that 'pixel A is probably connected to pixel B'.
It seems the technical term is 'displacement maps' - and a company that seems to have done a lot of research in optimizing algorithms in this area in recent years is....
(surprisingly) Microsoft. Have any leaks confirmed that kinect 2 is actually a depth camera?
Yes, as long as Sony has Move, they will know the absolute location of the player's hand(s). The rest is about tracking postures and gestures @ 60Hz. Not every motion game needs all these details
They will still need to overcome severe lighting conditions (Too bright or too dark). I am not sure if HDR cam is a sufficient solution on its own. That's why I am curious if they have ultrasonic sensors too (I remember Aibo had 8 for sensing the environment).
They will still need to overcome severe lighting conditions (Too bright or too dark). I am not sure if HDR cam is a sufficient solution on its own. That's why I am curious if they have ultrasonic sensors too (I remember Aibo had 8 for sensing the environment).
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