NGGP: NextGen Garbage Pile (aka: No one reads the topics or stays on topic) *spawn*

[Acert93]

At the end of the day both consoles will seem relatively "weak" on paper, but will be quite strong when we see the games.

But they'll blow away current consoles by a likely real world factor of ~8X+ which is what mostly matters.

Now Predicting: The 5 stages of grief for consumers devoted to purchasing a product before it is announced yet anticipating it will underwhelm:

Denial
Anger
Bargaining
Depression
Acceptance <<-- You both are here.

Of course I am a big practitioner of the 6 step model (or the 1 step, skip the first 5): If it doesn't live up to expectations don't justify it with qualifiers ("it is better than what we currently have") and just don't buy the darn things Now that is what mostly matters

Ps- I bet half of the launch window games look like upgraded titles from this gen, i.e. a mish mash of medium-high PC settings at 30Hz and variable resolutions, many dynamic. Insert, "But wait until you see the 2nd wave games in year 3!"

 

[Rangers]

Now Predicting: The 5 stages of grief for consumers devoted to purchasing a product before it is announced yet anticipating it will underwhelm:

Denial
Anger
Bargaining
Depression
Acceptance <<-- You both are here.

Of course I am a big practitioner of the 6 step model (or the 1 step, skip the first 5): If it doesn't live up to expectations don't justify it with qualifiers ("it is better than what we currently have") and just don't buy the darn things Now that is what mostly matters

Ps- I bet half of the launch window games look like upgraded titles from this gen, i.e. a mish mash of medium-high PC settings at 30Hz and variable resolutions, many dynamic. Insert, "But wait until you see the 2nd wave games in year 3!"

Huh? I'm under no delusions. We got what we got, make the best of it. If PS4 is going to offer 4 TF and Durango 1, I'll be buying a PS4, but I dont think thats exactly going to be the case.

As I said, I was starting to anticipate a 6670, so anything over 1TF almost looks like gravy.

It could be much worse, it could be a WiiU, thats all

 

[Bagel seed]

Huh? I'm under no delusions. We got what we got, make the best of it. If PS4 is going to offer 4 TF and Durango 1, I'll be buying a PS4, but I dont think thats exactly going to be the case.

Expect it, power of die stacking magic @ 20nm.

512-bit bus, 256gb/s bandwidth 4+gb ddr4, downclocked high end gpu equivalent.

 

[Proelite]

Expect it, power of die stacking magic @ 20nm.

512-bit bus, 256gb/s bandwidth 4+gb ddr4, downclocked high end gpu equivalent.

Yes, could happen if they throw away billions spent already and restarted for a console launching in 2015.

 

[XpiderMX]

It could be much worse, it could be a WiiU, thats all

How much "worse" is Wii U? I remember Lherre said Wii U is like a Dreamcast and Durango is like the original Xbox...

EDIT: I'm reading Proelite in NeoGAF: PS4: 1.84tflop, 20-33% better than 720.

 

[Bagel seed]

Yes, could happen if they throw away billions spent already and restarted for a console launching in 2015.

I was half joking but it's not like none of what I posted isn't doable in 2014, IF they were looking into it and were aiming for that. And I'm pretty sure they have into some of the tech. ie. Stacked dies, TSVs. Otherwise you wouldn't have CTOs and R&D guys talking about it since 2011.

 

[Rangers]

How much "worse" is Wii U? I remember Lherre said Wii U is like a Dreamcast and Durango is like the original Xbox...

EDIT: I'm reading Proelite in NeoGAF: PS4: 1.84tflop, 20-33% better than 720.

yep. in flops it's ~50% better.

but it will have only 4gb ram versus 8 (but this could also fluctuate on os reserves) and other differences (durango custom hardware, cpu's 8 jag vs 4 steamroller, etc).

at a glance i'm not sure i dont like the proposed ps4 specs a little better...we will see real world though...

 

[XpiderMX]

yep. in flops it's ~50% better.

but it will have only 4gb ram versus 8 (but this could also fluctuate on os reserves) and other differences (durango custom hardware, cpu's 8 jag vs 4 steamroller, etc).

at a glance i'm not sure i dont like the proposed ps4 specs a little better...we will see real world though...

Can the 1.2tflops specs from Durango give more "real performance" than 1.8tflops from PS4? If ram is faster (GDDR5 vs DDR3) and GPU is better (20-33%), how can Durango be a more powerfull gaming hardware?

 

[Rangers]

Can the 1.2tflops specs from Durango give more "real performance" than 1.8tflops from PS4? If ram is faster (GDDR5 vs DDR3) and GPU is better (20-33%), how can Durango be a more powerfull gaming hardware?

If this is all true, you do have more ram in durango, and you have unspecified custom performance aids, more cpu cores, etc. You cant just ignore those factors either.

i'm not willing to call a winner based on those theoretical just yet. from the looks of it i like ps4 design better, but real world i guess we'll see (at e3?). if these various specs are true.

 

[Bagel seed]

There is a discrete gpu for PS4. Dunno why that disinfo is being spread around now.

http://forum.beyond3d.com/showpost.php?p=1681895&postcount=15663

I've only heard bits and pieces, no matter how many scotch and sodas I buy.

Certain devs working on titles not for current gen have production milestones in August. They are apparently under "enormous pressure" by internal tech teams to make sure these milestones are hit. So far, the state of the toolsets has meant delays, however, these are "coming along in leaps and bounds" and hope remains that these targets will be reached.

Performance specs are still in a state of flux although narrowing constantly. I have taken this to mean that the specifications are still being finalised, but a performance range is being targetted. 1080p60 is most definitely being pushed internally.

Specs also currently include a discrete gpu. Whether this is to bolster performance to match that from an unreleased customised AMD chipset, I don't know. I also don't know which gpu. I also do not know the performance level of the current kits, however devs working with them are extremely happy with how they are working and say that performance levels are increasing with each iteration.

If performance is increasing with each iteration, and alpha kits are already at 1.84TF, what do you think that means for beta and final kits?

 

[Sonic]

Can the 1.2tflops specs from Durango give more "real performance" than 1.8tflops from PS4? If ram is faster (GDDR5 vs DDR3) and GPU is better (20-33%), how can Durango be a more powerfull gaming hardware?

Are tessellation units counted in the overall flops figure for GPU's? ESRAM can provide a substantial performance boost if there's enough of it to go around and devs are able to use it as a scratchpad. Bandwidth is king and if we have oodles of it with the ESRAM then all the better. I'm wondering if the FPU's (in the CPU) are upgraded in anyway for these new systems. Since it is console gaming we're talking about a lot of that CPU time will be spent assisting the GPU. People may argue otherwise but we'll see those dev interviews where they say they sped up some process by using the CPU. More cores for that could end up making up for the lack in GPU performance. The APU design itself could be meant for much efficiency and sharing of resources. If the frame buffer fits in the ESRAM it will allow for much faster communication between the CPU cores and GPU part of the APU. But damn, I sure hoe it's not 1.2 - 1.5 GFLOPS of GPU power, seems rather on the low side given the year being 2013 and these things being launched at the end of the year.

 

[Sonic]

There is a discrete gpu for PS4. Dunno why that disinfo is being spread around now.

http://forum.beyond3d.com/showpost.php?p=1681895&postcount=15663



If performance is increasing with each iteration, and alpha kits are already at 1.84TF, what do you think that means for beta and final kits?

As has been discussed before that is for the devkit specs and may not be indicative of final hardware. And we will have to wait and see on the beta and final kits to see where they are flops wise compared to alpha kits. And do we know for a fact that alpha kits are at 1.84 TFLOPS? To say there's a discrete GPU in the final hardware is unknown at this point, at least to us. And you also cut out (*Devkit*) from the quote.

 

[onQ]

yep. in flops it's ~50% better.

but it will have only 4gb ram versus 8 (but this could also fluctuate on os reserves) and other differences (durango custom hardware, cpu's 8 jag vs 4 steamroller, etc).

at a glance i'm not sure i dont like the proposed ps4 specs a little better...we will see real world though...

You shouldn't leave out the part about the 4GB being GDDR5 vs the 8GB being DDR3 or DDR4.

 

[Proelite]

There is a discrete gpu for PS4. Dunno why that disinfo is being spread around now.

http://forum.beyond3d.com/showpost.php?p=1681895&postcount=15663



If performance is increasing with each iteration, and alpha kits are already at 1.84TF, what do you think that means for beta and final kits?

1.84 teraflops is final target spec. They may exceed or fall short.

 

[arijoytunir]

http://dualpixels.com/2012/11/29/ru...y-hardware-and-third-party-softwear-next-gen/

The rumour of live wall came true as Microsoft unveiled Xbox illumiroom at ces 2013 .

 

[(((interference)))]

http://dualpixels.com/2012/11/29/ru...y-hardware-and-third-party-softwear-next-gen/

The rumour of live wall came true as Microsoft unveiled Xbox illumiroom at ces 2013 .

– Known first party XBox Next games: Halo Trilogy Remake, Chief Samurai by Rare, Project Gotham Racing, Kinectimals 2, Rise, Carnival Park, Fable 4

Very interesting rumour, there has been some hubub over GAF over some teaser pic from ex-Bizarre employees that supposedly hints at PGR5.

 

[Docwiz]

So a guy (Proelite) from GAF (also has account here), allegedly works for MS (but not in xbox department) says Durango is locked at 1 TFLOP GPU and 4 gigs of ram. Personally, I'm not sure if I believe that because that would really put Microsoft in difficult position next generation. Having GPU thats so far behind from its main competitor would be pretty suicidal...

I don't believe anything Proelite says. The guy keeps changing his tune at different times. He said Durango was going to be 2.5 TF now he is backpedaling.

 

[Docwiz]

http://dualpixels.com/2012/11/29/ru...y-hardware-and-third-party-softwear-next-gen/

The rumour of live wall came true as Microsoft unveiled Xbox illumiroom at ces 2013 .

That had nothing to do with Dual Pixels. This info came out way before Dual pixels stuff was posted.

Here is where we first saw the patent of "illumiroom"...
http://www.patentlyapple.com/patent...sions-where-gaming-is-going-and-its-wild.html

 

[Grall]

Are tessellation units counted in the overall flops figure for GPU's?

They would be in the FLOP count for the PS3 generation of hardware, if respective marketing departments had a say about it. I believe a more technically competent crowd such as here only counts programmable hardware though. After all, if you count all the flops you just end up with meaningless bogus figures that don't reflect real-world performance.

ESRAM can provide a substantial performance boost if there's enough of it to go around

There's not going to be any more SRAM than absolutely necessary, and maybe a bit less, because SRAM is so expensive. SRAM is used where predictable performance and low latency is required like in register arrays and caches, and in such situations there's typically fairly sharply diminishing returns when increasing capacities meaning they tend to be conservatively sized.

So, we're not going to see huge chunks of SRAM for say, framebuffer use because there the performance difference isn't going to be noticeably greater than properly implemented EDRAM.

 

[N2O]

How much "worse" is Wii U? I remember Lherre said Wii U is like a Dreamcast and Durango is like the original Xbox...

EDIT: I'm reading Proelite in NeoGAF: PS4: 1.84tflop, 20-33% better than 720.

Why you believe Proelite?
And thuway,it's like because there is some rumors(you know,just rumors) make Durango sounds pretty powerful,then suddenly some dudes get in and keep saying "nonono,it's not",and this not that (on paper)powerful GPU can magically on par with AMD/NVIDIA current high end GPU

Pretty Funny,not saying it's no way,but that will be some...not sure how to say.