Next Xbox for debut at E3 2012?

[RudeCurve]

Kinect driven OS means you use your hands to navigate ever heard of iOS?

It doesn't mean you can't use a wireless keyboard to type...think harder.

As for you hooking up YOUR PC to a TV....WTF does that have anything to do with what I proposed?


I'll repeat what I said.....it has nothing to do with the 3 scenarios possible so it's irrelevent. You're stuck in the old way of doing/seeing things. You need to look at it from the person who WILL be buying WinOS for Xbox. These people will either hook up the Xbox to a TV or a "monitor". A TV is just a montior with a tuner...makes no difference. You need to look outside the box.

There is a growing number of people who do not want a separate device for every little thing. Just becuase YOU have a workstation with a desk and "computer monitor" doesn't mean everyone in the world see's that as attractive or convenient. There is a huge market for convergence devices. Look at the smart phone and how many things you could do with it. Ten years ago there were people just like you who said they don't have a use for a camera in a phone because they have a much better standalone camera....ok. Seen statistics for camera usage lately?

Yes people today still buy separate digital cameras....so what? What does that have anything to do with smartphones having cameras that people use by the tens of millions????

 

[AlphaWolf]

Kinect driven OS means you use your hands to navigate ever heard of iOS?

Voice is part of the kinect package.

It doesn't mean you can't use a wireless keyboard to type...think harder.

heh so having it be kinect driven is just a gimmick, if you want to do anything productive you need another input device? Doesn't sound like much of an advancement

As for you hooking up YOUR PC to a TV....WTF does that have anything to do with what I proposed?


I'll repeat what I said.....it has nothing to do with the 3 scenarios possible so it's irrelevent. You're stuck in the old way of doing/seeing things. You need to look at it from the person who WILL be buying WinOS for Xbox. These people will either hook up the Xbox to a TV or a "monitor". A TV is just a montior with a tuner...makes no difference. You need to look outside the box.

Repeating it like a mantra doesn't make it true. There's a difference in computing on a TV in most peoples homes. They don't have an office chair and a desk in front of their HDTV.

Look outside of what box? You're not doing anything revolutionary, you're turning a console into a PC with a dual boot option.

There is a growing number of people who do not want a separate device for every little thing. Just becuase YOU have a workstation with a desk and "computer monitor" doesn't mean everyone in the world see's that as attractive or convenient. There is a huge market for convergence devices. Look at the smart phone and how many things you could do with it. Ten years ago there were people just like you who said they don't have a use for a camera in a phone because they have a much better standalone camera....ok. Seen statistics for camera usage lately?

Yes people today still buy separate digital cameras....so what? What does that have anything to do with smartphones having cameras that people use by the tens of millions????

Yes the latest number I saw for the US was that digital camera sales were down almost 2% in the US, but soaring in emerging markets. Smartphones have completely run them out of business apparently. Most people who want to take quality pictures, apparently still use a camera. And people aren't actually dropping devices, they've been increasing the number of devices they haul around, sometimes having 2 devices is actually better than one.

perhaps they should just put the xbox dashboard on a smartphone

Anyway, get back to me when you have a compelling new argument.

 

[RudeCurve]

Voice is part of the kinect package.

So according to you that means it's a requirement for PC operation?

heh so having it be kinect driven is just a gimmick, if you want to do anything productive you need another input device? Doesn't sound like much of an advancement

Yeah touch screens for iOS devices are gimmicks too...wish I could use my "office mouse" with my iPhone...lol.

Repeating it like a mantra doesn't make it true. There's a difference in computing on a TV in most peoples homes. They don't have an office chair and a desk in front of their HDTV.

LMAO...you've just proved my point...I'm glad an "office chair" is a requirement for PC operation. That works perfectly wit your "office desk" and "office mouse" and "office monitor"...lol.

Look outside of what box? You're not doing anything revolutionary, you're turning a console into a PC with a dual boot option.

A new form of gaming console that can also function as a full PC with touchfree navigation is not revolutionary?

Yes the latest number I saw for the US was that digital camera sales were down almost 2% in the US, but soaring in emerging markets. Smartphones have completely run them out of business apparently. Most people who want to take quality pictures, apparently still use a camera. And people aren't actually dropping devices, they've been increasing the number of devices they haul around, sometimes having 2 devices is actually better than one.

perhaps they should just put the xbox dashboard on a smartphone

Anyway, get back to me when you have a compelling new argument.

Thanks for proving my point without even realizing it....

 

[AlphaWolf]

So according to you that means it's a requirement for PC operation?

try to follow the thread, I wasn't the one who even brought it up.

Yeah touch screens for iOS devices are gimmicks too...wish I could use my "office mouse" with my iPhone...lol.

yea I also need to haul around a keyboard to type on my iphone.

LMAO...you've just proved my point...I'm glad an "office chair" is a requirement for PC operation. That works perfectly wit your "office desk" and "office mouse" and "office monitor"...lol.

Not having a desk in front of you, and the display being 8-12ft away does offer certain difficulties that you haven't been able to address. You really like to avoid arguments you don't have an answer for don't you.

A new form of gaming console that can also function as a full PC with touchfree navigation is not revolutionary?

No it really isn't. Especially not when dashboard navigation is already somewhat kinect enabled.

Thanks for proving my point without even realizing it....

I've proven you're unwilling to address the heart of my argument

and here's a tip, the use of emotes don't make you seem clever, quite the opposite

 

[tuna]

Much more expensive too. If the cost to surf the web in the living room after gaming is one console+one tablet, versus one console and a browser or OS software purchase, the latter is way more cost effective. Of course a browser doesn't need a full OS, but it definitely has value, as evidenced by the many complaints from PS3 users about how rubbish its browser is!

A shitty tablet is cheaper than current windows license + wireless keyboard. Also, it is really difficult to read text on the TV, and you are usually positioned in such a way that keyboard input is not very comfortable either.

 

[RudeCurve]

try to follow the thread, I wasn't the one who even brought it up.

Yeah but you assumed it would be the only way to type....your assumption backfired.

yea I also need to haul around a keyboard to type on my iphone.

Yes in YOUR bizarro world it would actually be better to haul around a keyboard, mouse, camera instead of a smartphone with touch interface.

Not having a desk in front of you, and the display being 8-12ft away does offer certain difficulties that you haven't been able to address. You really like to avoid arguments you don't have an answer for don't you.

Not bothering and not being able are two completely different things. People use a desk to put their "PC monitor" on and their "PC mouse"...and keyboard.

Now if you sit 8-12ft away then you obviously have a big TV aka "monitor" which means everything on the screen is bigger. If you have a big TV then you will likely have good resolution for PC usage. You don't need a desk if your input device is your hand. Even if you prefer to use a mouse you still wouldn't need a desk. Laser mice works on basically anything...your couch, your couch pillow, you leg...or cough even a mouse pad laid on the couch to your side. As for the keyboard...there's this thing called your lap which is where the term "laptop" came from. Now if you can type on a laptop laid on your lap then simple logic says you can type on a keyboard laid on your lap.

No it really isn't. Especially not when dashboard navigation is already somewhat kinect enabled.

Dashboard is not Windows and can't run Windows apps.

I've proven you're unwilling to address the heart of my argument

No you haven't, I prefer that you defeat your own arguements without my help.

You said that digital cameras makers are still in business....yes that's exactly my point! For most people it doesn't make sense to buy a separate camera and carry it around everywhere you go. For most people it makes sense to carry your camera phone everywhere you go. For SOME people it makes sense to have a separate device for picture taking.

PC makers will still be in business even if Xbox PC becomes popular...that's good for MS! For most people it makes sense to spend $50 or whatever to turn a XB3 into a PC instead of spending $600 for a PC that has the same functioanlity as a Xbox PC.

Look if you can't see YOURSELF with a Xbox PC then fine....it's not meant for everyone, but don't make blanket statements that most people would not find the option attractive and adding value. I think it adds tremendous value by allowing me and millions of others to save lots of money.

 

[RudeCurve]

A shitty tablet is cheaper than current windows license + wireless keyboard. Also, it is really difficult to read text on the TV, and you are usually positioned in such a way that keyboard input is not very comfortable either.

A shitty tablet can't run Windows or Windows apps...

It's not difficult to read text on a LCD TV if you use HDMI/DVI/VGA...

A LCD TV is just a large PC LCD with tuner...

Most medium to large LCD TVs have enough resolution for PC usage...1366x768 - 1920x1080.

 

[AlphaWolf]

Yeah but you assumed it would be the only way to type....your assumption backfired.

Where did I do that (I actually responded that I didn't think voice would be that good)? and how the hell it did it backfire? You bring up the idea of using kinect as windows input and then kill it by requiring a keyboard.

Yes in YOUR bizarro world it would actually be better to haul around a keyboard, mouse, camera instead of a smartphone....

The devices are a little bit different to use. iOS devices come with an onscreen keyboard and you can input data using them. Crazy, I know. Thinking you were suggesting something cool like using kinect to actually input data was way off base. I apologize.

Not bothering and not being able are two completely different things. People use a desk to put their "PC monitor" on and their "PC mouse"...

Now if you sit 8-12ft away then you obviously have a big TV aka "monitor" which means everything on the screen is bigger. If you have a big TV then you will likely have good resolution for PC usage. You don't need a desk if your input device is your hand. Even if you prefer to use a mouse you still wouldn't need a desk. Laser mice works on basically anything...your couch, your couch pillow, you leg...or cough even a mouse pad laid on the couch to your side.

Have you tried to read the text on a webpage opened on an HDTV from 12ft away? It's not easy without increasing the text size quite a few times. Using a mouse and keyboard without a desk is far from ideal (keyboard on your lap and mouse sitting beside you on the couch?). And I don't want to have a mouse and keyboard sitting around in my living room even if they are wireless, I have a keyboard and mouse in my office in front of my monitor which is beside my PC. I don't think there's a huge demand for console on TV as a PC. (how long ago did Sony disable OtherOS again?) If I want to be productive I need a mouse and keyboard, and a desk to set them on with a screen close enough that I can read a 10pt font, if I don't want to be productive I can go game on my xbox360 in the living room. Apps with a custom interface would make a lot more sense, designed for the living room experience.

Dashboard is not Windows and can't run Windows apps.

Nope it isn't, and it sure can't. It can run apps that MS wants to make available to promote the xbl experience and bring more people to that platform rather than trying to compete directly (and pissing them off to boot) with dell and hp. That might be a huge downside for those wanting to use excel on nextbox on their HDTV.

 

[RudeCurve]

Have you never used a laptop the way it was designed? I've used my laptop lying on the bed, sitting down on a couch, has never affected productivity or typing ability. I don't think XboxPC would be any different.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Except they lose the windows machine sale from the person that wants that functionality. Net 0.

Okay, fair point. No net gain vs. PC regards financials, but if the added value means more consoles sold versus the competition, MS would be gaining market share.

It makes as much sense as offering windows on the xbox.

That's not a reasoned answer.

Explain to me how those become the only options. It would prevent them from offering the next console as a loss leader, the last thing you want is to sell a loss leader to people who don't want game on it.

You can offer the OS option when the hardware becomes cost effective, or not launch as a loss-leader which is something we're generally talking about with the next-gen consoles, because both Sony and MS have been seriously bitten by that approach. Furthermore that's changing the argument from the one I was replying to with this example - that MS would infringe on their Live/Windows. There'd be no infringement and the Windows market would be no different if the boxes running it are badged Dell, HP, Sony or Xbox.

It doesn't need to be a load of complex issues, it can be a few minor issues, it still requires additional support for the few people who actually want this functionality. And it opens up security issues and additional support issues. If you offer it, you need to support it.

Some of which are points I've raised, so I hardly think I'm glossing over them. It comes down to a cost/benefit consideration to support it. Support itself should be negligible. I've explained why, if the box is designed for the job. You've yet to explain how offering support is going to be a problem or significant cost.

It's ok value for the few people who actually want to have a PC hooked up to their TV...

Your still going with this idea that people are against having a PC connected to their TV, hence they don't do it. People don't give a damn about the box. What they want are functions, which are functions appearing in smart TVs these days. A box that enables all these functions is a Good Thing. If having HTML5 apps is a good idea, as you suggest, then having Windows is an equally good idea in terms of providing extensive functionality. Now I've already agreed that a full-blown Windows is going to be overkill, but if Ms weren't going to do that, adding Windows as a purchasable feature would be better for the users than not providing anything, and it would be workable.

 

[Entropy]

A console running Windows isn't an alternative to a mobile PC (which by far is the majority sold to private individuals).
Who buys stationary computers for home use these days?
The answer to that gives an indication of the level of interest there would be in Windows for XBox.

 

[tuna]

A console running Windows isn't an alternative to a mobile PC (which by far is the majority sold to private individuals).
Who buys stationary computers for home use these days?
The answer to that gives an indication of the level of interest there would be in Windows for XBox.

I bought an iMac (mostly running Fedora) a couple of weeks ago. Most people have their laptops on one place most of the time, and if that is the case, the combo stationary computer + netbook/tablet is far superior.

 

[tuna]

A shitty tablet can't run Windows or Windows apps...

It's not difficult to read text on a LCD TV if you use HDMI/DVI/VGA...

A LCD TV is just a large PC LCD with tuner...

Most medium to large LCD TVs have enough resolution for PC usage...1366x768 - 1920x1080.

You do not want to sit in a couch and run Photoshop. It is difficult to read text if you are far away from the screen. Count the number of pixels text (or a letter) take up on a game compared to Windows and see for yourself.

 

[goonergaz]

Have you tried to read the text on a webpage opened on an HDTV from 12ft away? It's not easy without increasing the text size quite a few times. Using a mouse and keyboard without a desk is far from ideal (keyboard on your lap and mouse sitting beside you on the couch?). And I don't want to have a mouse and keyboard sitting around in my living room even if they are wireless, I have a keyboard and mouse in my office in front of my monitor which is beside my PC.

WRT font size - you can set a PC to have large fonts so no need to adjust it once setup (I did this years ago in the old days using my PC on a CRT via s-video...altho as pointed out, it's only ok for minimal use.

WRT Keybaord & mouse - you can get keyboards with built in trackballs.

Either way I think many are missing the point, usually (in my household anyway) both PC & consoles are being used at the same time...the only people that would benefit with an Xbox PC would be single people, TBH I'd rather MS concentrate on a games console - I don't mind it being able to do other things (like the PS3) but I'll always be buying a PC/laptop as well.

 

[Gerry]

I can't really see MS going anywhere near allowing Windows to be installed on a new Xbox. I do wonder whether they'll try to leverage something like Office 365 onto the system though.

 

[hoho]

usually (in my household anyway) both PC & consoles are being used at the same time...the only people that would benefit with an Xbox PC would be single people

... and every family where you have more people than PCs so they could use different devices simultaneously.

 

[goonergaz]

... and every family where you have more people than PCs so they could use different devices simultaneously.

But the TV is being used for TV viewing!? It get's interrupted enough for gaming let alone for PC use...the point is you wouldn't buy a XB instead of a PC, imagine if you need to do something whilst footy is on!? At least with a dedicated box there is no issue...otherwise wouldn't more people use their TVs as PC monitors?

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Either way I think many are missing the point, usually (in my household anyway) both PC & consoles are being used at the same time...the only people that would benefit with an Xbox PC would be single people, TBH I'd rather MS concentrate on a games console.

Except the hardware needed to make a games console is exactly the same hardware that makes up a PC, so there's no compromise. My monitor has a TV tuner, and I bought it for that purpose so I can watch TV in the same room I work in. It would be daft to buy two displays with exactly the same hardware only one limited to displaying a PC and one limited to displaying TV when both can be seemlessly integrated. There are financial reasons not include TV support in every display as that requires extra hardware, but if no extra hardware is needed to support a feature, like running Windows on a load of PC components, then there's no general reason not to support that feature. Hence we have browsers on PS3 and DS and Wii, and every-feature-under-the-sun on your mobile phone instead of people carrying around one mobile phone and one mobile computer.

But the TV is being used for TV viewing!? It get's interrupted enough for gaming let alone for PC use...the point is you wouldn't buy a XB instead of a PC, imagine if you need to do something whilst footy is on!? At least with a dedicated box there is no issue...otherwise wouldn't more people use their TVs as PC monitors?

Depends where you are and what you're doing. Why are TV companies adding PC apps like Google Maps and Facebook to TVs like? Because these are functions people value. It's more convenient to switch straight from TV to YouTube than getting out another device. It's more cost effective if you already have a static PC in the study to have an integrated device in the living room than buy a netbook or tablet. The reasons for not having a PC connected to the TV as a norm are multifarious, but it's not because people don't want a PC nor PC functionality readily on hand. As mentioned previously, people do use the PS3 browser, even though it's sucky, because it is convenient, such as firing up IMDB after watching a movie, or YouTube to look up something that came up during conversation while playing some sociable game.

Now a lot of the valuable functions could be served via a more app-driven interface, and that'd be the more sensible route. However, adding full OS support would serve an even greater audience. eg. Any parent wanting to provide a kid with a games console for their entertainment and a PC for their school work would find the value of a single box very compelling.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

With a little Troll Reduction now in effect, hopefully this thread can return to more focussed consideration of the new boxes innards and strategies.

 

[joker454]

Either way I think many are missing the point, usually (in my household anyway) both PC & consoles are being used at the same time...the only people that would benefit with an Xbox PC would be single people, TBH I'd rather MS concentrate on a games console - I don't mind it being able to do other things (like the PS3) but I'll always be buying a PC/laptop as well.

I don't think an Xbox PC makes sense personally, but being able to run the Windows 8 html5+js apps on multiple platforms like Xbox, PC, phone and tablet does make total sense to me. For example, you buy a casual Win8 game on your PC on the Win8 app store (one of those new html5+js apps) and you enjoy it for a while on pc. Win8 and beyond are fully cloud enabled so your saves games are on the cloud. Wouldn't it be cool if you could then play that same game that you bought on the Win8 app store on any device you own? Like what if you felt like playing it on your tv? No problem use your Xbox console. Play it on the go? Sure use your phone. That one app you bought can now be used anywhere, and it's fully cloud aware so your save game follows you anywhere, and you are earning achivements everywhere. Don't you think that would be a very powerful feature to have?