Next Generation Hardware Speculation with a Technical Spin [post E3 2019, pre GDC 2020] [XBSX, PS5]

[Shortbread]

Regarding the use of words from Mark Cerny in the Wired interview "The GPU, a custom variant of Radeon’s Navi family, will support ray tracing"
He didn't use words like integrated or hardware ray tracing. That has been discussed here. He later said “we are cloud-gaming pioneers, and our vision should become clear as we head toward launch” then there is this slide and text from AMD under cloud: Could it be that Sony have chosen ray tracing support only via cloud? He also talked about using ray tracing for sound localisation in games, so I don't know, just speculating.

During the interview (post release) the editor mentioned Cerny didn't want to get into detail about PS5 RT capabilities (other than it was capable), that they will cover that at a later date. And Matt (current or ex-dev) over at Era, confirmed it was hardware related. Until Sony clarifies or confirms if it's AMD-Navi based or some custom solution of their own, I wouldn't waste time trying to parse vague language from either Sony or Microsoft.

 

[borntosoul]

The ray tracing tick......marketing at it's best.
Let's see shall we, calculated lighting vs fake lighting and which will give best overall results with the power we have for this coming gen

 

[BRiT]

Why even bother fretting? We'll get what we get and the dev's will do amazing things with it, regardless of the actual implementations. They've been faking things amazingly well so far. I couldn't care less about their RT. Give me those instant loading and CPU benefits!

 

[Shortbread]

Why even bother fretting? We'll get what we get and the dev's will do amazing things with it, regardless of the actual implementations. They've been faking things amazingly well so far. I couldn't care less about their RT. Give me those instant loading and CPU benefits!

 

[bgroovy]

The in order execution and issues with multi threading probably muted whatever benefit the PS3 and 360 CPUs launched with.

Compared to the Emotion Engine? PS2 to PS3 was going from 6.4Gflops to 200+ Gflops.

 

[temesgen]

Compared to the Emotion Engine? PS2 to PS3 was going from 6.4Gflops to 200+ Gflops.

I said muted as in reduced. It was a huge adjustment for developers who arguably would have been happier with less processing power that was easier to access.

 

[borntosoul]

Why even bother fretting? We'll get what we get and the dev's will do amazing things with it, regardless of the actual implementations. They've been faking things amazingly well so far. I couldn't care less about their RT. Give me those instant loading and CPU benefits!

It's just a discussion, I agree about rt, I'd rather the benifits you mentioned . I'm just curious as to what direction game developer's will take.

 

[Mobius1aic]

I said muted as in reduced. It was a huge adjustment for developers who arguably would have been happier with less processing power that was easier to access.

Xenon...... (though it had it's own challenges).

 

[Silent_Buddha]

The ray tracing tick......marketing at it's best.
Let's see shall we, calculated lighting vs fake lighting and which will give best overall results with the power we have for this coming gen

All computed lighting is fake lighting, even RT. It's just that RT gives a better approximation of how light works in real life, especially when it comes to indirect lighting...assuming you can afford enough bounces and enough rays.

It might be more realistic, but in the end, it's still fake lighting.

Regards,
SB

 

[Malo]

It might be more realistic, but in the end, it's still fake lighting.

What's "real" lighting in relation to representing lighting models via algorithms in computer generated graphics?

 

[Silent_Buddha]

What's "real" lighting in relation to representing lighting models via algorithms in computer generated graphics?

Something so complex that there isn't a machine in existence that can come anywhere close to calculating it in real time. Even offline rendering is still using approximations even with more time available to dedicate to more accurate RT.

Just like all physics simulations we have available are gross approximations and over simplifications.

But what's important, especially when it comes to gaming, is whether the illusion it provides is good enough that you aren't "too" bothered by it when playing the game. RT will get us closer, but it's still not there. Just like general physics is still REALLY far away, IMO. Even hardbody physics (the easiest to approximate is still grossly "not quite right"). Same goes for audio.

Regards,
SB

 

[itsmydamnation]

What's "real" lighting in relation to representing lighting models via algorithms in computer generated graphics?

Only a real time sub atomiclly accurate emulation of the know universe we be sufficient enough for me to call it not fake light.....

 

[Silent_Buddha]

Hehe, yeah. Maybe it's the pessimist/realist in me, but when I look at things like lighting, physics, and audio in games...I'm not thinking about progression over time being about getting it more right. I'm thinking about progression over time being about making it less wrong.

Two sides of the same coin. But something being wrong is significantly more noticeable than something being right for me.

Regards,
SB

 

[borntosoul]

That's why l said calculated vs fake.
And it's all smoke and mirrors.
But RT does look nice.

 

[Barrabas]

During the interview (post release) the editor mentioned Cerny didn't want to get into detail about PS5 RT capabilities (other than it was capable), that they will cover that at a later date. And Matt (current or ex-dev) over at Era, confirmed it was hardware related. Until Sony clarifies or confirms if it's AMD-Navi based or some custom solution of their own, I wouldn't waste time trying to parse vague language from either Sony or Microsoft.

Thanks! I missed that. Before RT was mentioned from Cerny, I never thougt RT would be an option in next gen consoles. Also didn't think SSD would be there. I agree with posts here that RT probably won't be a game changer (pun intended) and it will be the other goodies in there that will wow us most.

 

[Deleted member 91098]

One of the rumors about the PS5 comes from APISAK's Gonzalo finding which has a "LITE" suffix (NAVI10_LITE). Yesterday he found even more codenames with a "LITE" suffix.

Maybe it's just a differentiator for discrete GPUs and APUs.

NV_NAVI10_P_A0 = 1,
NV_NAVI12_P_A0 = 10,
NV_NAVI14_M_A0 = 20,
NV_NAVI21_P_A0 = 40,
NV_NAVI10_LITE_P_A0 = 0x80,
NV_NAVI10_LITE_P_B0 = 0x81,
NV_NAVI12_LITE_P_A0 = 0x82,
NV_NAVI21_LITE_P_A0 = 0x90,
NV_UNKNOWN = 0xFF

https://twitter.com/x/status/1140818866316013568

 

[borntosoul]

Gonzalo is just not for ps5, ps5 has a modified version of it that l read someplace. Similar to ps4 alteration of APU.

 

[AbsoluteBeginner]

Gonzalo was tied in with PS5 duo to PCI ID 13e9 that matches Ariel. I am wondering if other Navi12 and Navi21 could be Xbox chips, as they are "P" related. Navi14 is clearly mobile chip (note "M")

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Regarding the use of words from Mark Cerny in the Wired interview "The GPU, a custom variant of Radeon’s Navi family, will support ray tracing"

Those are NOT Mark Cerny's words. Those are the words of the reporter, Peter Rubin. Only the direct quotes between speech marks are Mark Cerny's actual words, and so we don't know how he expressed the presence of ray tracing.

 

[Silent_Buddha]

That's why l said calculated vs fake.
And it's all smoke and mirrors.
But RT does look nice.

I still don't get the distinction. All lighting in games is calculated. And all lighting in games is fake.

Do you mean real time versus baked/non-real time?

Regards,
SB