Next Generation Hardware Speculation with a Technical Spin [post E3 2019, pre GDC 2020] [XBSX, PS5]

Discussion in 'Console Technology' started by DavidGraham, Jun 9, 2019.

Tags:
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. TheAlSpark

    TheAlSpark Moderator
    Moderator Legend

    Joined:
    Feb 29, 2004
    Messages:
    21,149
    Likes Received:
    6,484
    Location:
    ಠ_ಠ
    hm.... so I guess they can do 3 arrays per shader engine? (e.g. 2*15WGPs *2 SE*2 = 60 CUs)

    bugger. :p

    (and up to 16 ROPs per shader array)
     
    #3121 TheAlSpark, Feb 19, 2020
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2020
  2. dobwal

    Legend Veteran

    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2005
    Messages:
    5,246
    Likes Received:
    1,257
    /facepalm

    You must like running through burning buildings with gasoline drawers on.
     
    TheAlSpark likes this.
  3. anexanhume

    Veteran Regular

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2011
    Messages:
    1,879
    Likes Received:
    1,190
    The summary of this patent is really obtuse. Can anyone explain exactly what they’re getting at here, other than conserving frame buffer space?

    http://www.freepatentsonline.com/WO2020036214A1.html

     
  4. Shifty Geezer

    Shifty Geezer uber-Troll!
    Moderator Legend

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2004
    Messages:
    42,204
    Likes Received:
    13,716
    Location:
    Under my bridge
    From your quoted text, it seems to be saying about selective rendering pixels or fetching precomputed (temporal?) data. You store some values for pixels and an 'acquisition determining unit', some selection algorithm, choose whether to fetch the preexisting/precomputed data or not.

    The three parts are
    Pixel storage > predetermined values
    Acquisition > do we want to fetch some predetermined pixel data?
    Value determination unit > what value to return, could be derived from several values within the storage, such as bilinear filtering.

    Sounds like CLUT for the framebuffer??
     
    anexanhume likes this.
  5. iroboto

    iroboto Daft Funk
    Legend Regular Subscriber

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2014
    Messages:
    9,250
    Likes Received:
    8,059
    i think in the grand scheme of processing and the nature of things, audio can be more latent that graphics.

    As in audio can probably be acceptable at 16ms. But some gamers will want graphical refresh in the 120+ range.

    30fps audio might be fine for a 60fps game. Sort of thing.
     
    BRiT likes this.
  6. Jay

    Jay
    Veteran Regular

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2013
    Messages:
    2,270
    Likes Received:
    1,390
    I was under the impression audio can be very latency sensitive. Wasn't that part of the problem with just using shaders to begin with, hence hiving of a section to reduce it.
     
  7. iroboto

    iroboto Daft Funk
    Legend Regular Subscriber

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2014
    Messages:
    9,250
    Likes Received:
    8,059
    Hmm. I think you could be right
     
  8. KeanuReeves

    Newcomer

    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2017
    Messages:
    49
    Likes Received:
    17
    Just a quick note here:
    The room acoustics of a concert is what makes them quite a bit more impactful than just listening on your headphones. There are a ton of sound dynamics at play in big music halls.
     
  9. chris1515

    Veteran Regular

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2005
    Messages:
    4,203
    Likes Received:
    2,915
    Location:
    Barcelona Spain
    Opening the pdf and the japanese patent it seems to take reference to camera patent*. This is probably CLUT for the framebuffer or maybe linked to a PS5 camera?

    *One Fuji film micro device patent of 1995
    One of seiko Epson patent of 1998
    And one Casio computer patent of 2013
     
  10. anexanhume

    Veteran Regular

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2011
    Messages:
    1,879
    Likes Received:
    1,190
    chris1515, PSman1700 and BRiT like this.
  11. dobwal

    Legend Veteran

    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2005
    Messages:
    5,246
    Likes Received:
    1,257
    I remember AMD allowing CU reservation so that audio wouldn't be disruptive to the graphics pipeline. Audio is typically is done near the completion of development and CU reservation allowed you add audio while avoiding sudden issues close to launch.
     
  12. Jay

    Jay
    Veteran Regular

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2013
    Messages:
    2,270
    Likes Received:
    1,390
    This doesn't sound right to me.
    If talking about on pc side, games have endless graphical configuration options, and hardware performance levels also. So why would it impact graphics in that way?
    I would also expect that they would give different parts budgets anyway.

    Not sure if TrueAudio/shaders was used on PS4.

    Pretty sure the hiving off was more to do with latency and to support the audio than to support the graphics side.

    Probably could do with someone who knows more here.
     
    PSman1700 likes this.
  13. iroboto

    iroboto Daft Funk
    Legend Regular Subscriber

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2014
    Messages:
    9,250
    Likes Received:
    8,059
    We originally had sound acceleration because it was taxing on the CPU to perform. And back then that made a lot of sense. As the complexity got higher, or A3D’s partial wave tracing solution; that alone was going to eat tons of cycles.

    but the importance of sound started to drop when graphics picked up. CPUs became powerful and we’ve generally never looked back now that CPUs are plenty powerful.
    However:
    a) the audio is not compressed on PC (IIRC)
    B) it’s not all that complex either

    The need to have silicon for audio acceleration may only be a hat tip to the desire for wave tracing again;
     
    PSman1700 likes this.
  14. TheAlSpark

    TheAlSpark Moderator
    Moderator Legend

    Joined:
    Feb 29, 2004
    Messages:
    21,149
    Likes Received:
    6,484
    Location:
    ಠ_ಠ
    Shouldn't the A3D patents be expiring sometime?

    :|
     
    PSman1700 likes this.
  15. dobwal

    Legend Veteran

    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2005
    Messages:
    5,246
    Likes Received:
    1,257
    https://gpuopen.com/amd-trueaudio-next-and-cu-reservation/
     
    Jay likes this.
  16. Jay

    Jay
    Veteran Regular

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2013
    Messages:
    2,270
    Likes Received:
    1,390
    So even though yes the issue you highlighted is mentioned, I feel that given in games you scale the graphics on pc, or throw hardware at it that it having inpact on graphics in an area due to dynamic nature of audio, it would be lower issue/more manageable as pc gamers need to manage that anyway.

    But that could be my biases.
    Too many things in article that I could use to highlight both of views to be honest.

    https://community.amd.com/community/gaming/blog/2016/08/17/amd-trueaudio-next-is-bringing-realistic

     
    #3136 Jay, Feb 22, 2020
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2020
  17. iroboto

    iroboto Daft Funk
    Legend Regular Subscriber

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2014
    Messages:
    9,250
    Likes Received:
    8,059
    they are owned by creative labs now
     
  18. ToTTenTranz

    Legend Veteran Subscriber

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2008
    Messages:
    10,617
    Likes Received:
    5,180
    Creative Labs' SXFi combined with object-based sound is something that should have happened in gaming years ago.

    I'm secretly hoping at least one of the console makers decided to pick up their tech.
     
  19. chris1515

    Veteran Regular

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2005
    Messages:
    4,203
    Likes Received:
    2,915
    Location:
    Barcelona Spain
    Mark Cerny or the Xbox architect are creating the console with dev feedback and audio team too. I don't think audio is not important but like physics on GPU(I remind the Havok demo), I suppose it took a hit because graphics are above anything else out of virtual reality. If we have a Havok demo, I suppose it will run on Zen 2 CPU and if we have 3d audio it will run on dedicated audio DSP on Xbox and PS5. Out of fluid, clothes or hair I think like this gen rigid body physics will stay on the CPU.

    Don't treat audio as a second class citizen, very curious to see an in-depth Q/A or conference about the PS5 or Xbox Series X like the Gamelab 2013 of Mark Cerny.
     
  20. Kaotik

    Kaotik Drunk Member
    Legend

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2003
    Messages:
    8,731
    Likes Received:
    2,560
    Location:
    Finland
    That doesn't stop them from expiring. A3D is a bit older than one might think, it was originally created by NASA spinoff Crystal River and rebranded to A3D by Aureal when they aquired Crystal River
     
    Lightman likes this.
Loading...
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page

  • About Us

    Beyond3D has been around for over a decade and prides itself on being the best place on the web for in-depth, technically-driven discussion and analysis of 3D graphics hardware. If you love pixels and transistors, you've come to the right place!

    Beyond3D is proudly published by GPU Tools Ltd.
Loading...