Next-Gen Wii HD Due by 2011

obonicus said:
They sorta did. They had been upgrading the gameboy continuously -- they added color, for instance.
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That was a lateral technology move. GBC games would still run on the original Game Boy.
And the Gameboy Advance was exactly that: a faster gameboy with nicer colors.
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GBA didn't sell as many units as the original Game Boy.
What's the Wii, exactly? It's a beefier Gamecube with a different main interface.
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What I meant by a "faster Gamecube" is a machine that basically takes the same philosophy of design as Gamecube, but basically put new silicon in it, much like the PS2 was the same design philosophy of the PS1, but with much more modern silicon. I think that should have been obvious given the context of the discussion (and the many discussions we've had on this board), but it obviously wasn't, so now I'm explaining it.
Certainly you're aware that when the NES was out there was little distinction.
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There was a sharp distinction. Hardcore gamers played complex games on home computers like the Commodore 64 and Amiga. The NES was for children and idiots.

I would roughly define the "hardcore" as gamers who believe that they belong to an elite class of gamers and mentally set themselves off from the majority of gamers, whom they regard as not being real gamers. It's an attitude, not a class of video games. When applied to games, it means little more than "A game that I, a hardcore gamer, like," which just confirms that it's really an attitude more than anything. That seems to be the only consistent, workable definition.

Nintendo's never targeted the 'hardcore'.
Click to expand...

I think the N64 and the SNES were all about catering to the core. And in my opinion, the N64 was more "hardcore" than the PS1. The PS1 was designed around appealing to people who previously didn't care about gaming by impressing them with cinematics and epic sound tracks. To a hardcore Ultima fan, Final Fantasy VII was practically a "non-game," a terribly easy, simplistic affair with more focus on pretty pictures and movies than being a true RPG. You don't have to look hard, even on this forum, for people praising Playstation for taking gaming "mainstream" with its cinematics and media playback. But when Wii makes gaming even more mainstream with its intuitive controller and social games, suddenly, cinematics and epic soundtracks define "hardcore," and we don't want the mainstream ruining gaming (news flash: the hardcore SHMUP and RPG fans thought that the Playstation ruined gaming). Having lots of non-gaming functions is good when it's movie and music playback, but bad when it's having a brain training game.
 
Can this whole 'hardcore' debate be put aside?

Nintendo has the money to do whatever they want. They are a software company in spirit, but for every generation save the Wii generation, they competed with the best/rest of them on the console technology. For this gen, they explicitly stated that a) HD household penetration was low, and b) they didn't want to compete on the technology race that MS and Sony were embarking upon.

Now from where I'm standing, Nintendo was completely on point in their thinking. Most households still don't have an HDTV, and what MS and Sony reaped for their hardware investments was billions in losses. That the next Wii will be HD is in my mind beyond question though, because the reasons that the present Wii wasn't will no longer be the case in ~2011. Providing HD resolutions will be a matter of extremely nominal expense at that time.
 
I think a Radeon 4850 class GPU is the best we can hope for. Honestly I'd be happy with something even weaker like a 3450 or 3650 class GPU. Diminishing graphical returns as well as cost and power usage concerns would make that a good target since you'd come close or match an Xbox 360's Xenos GPU setup. However a good CPU would be imperative as more and more parts of the features that are important in games are becoming CPU processed (physics, destructible environments, AI). Crysis' graphics are pretty much good enough for FPS style games. What is now needed is not better graphics throughput but better orchestration of the experience through better environment fidelity, which it seems alot of people completely disregarded when seeing Crysis for the first time. Honestly I thought the ability to break the environment partially-procedurally was more important to me. That's the next frontier I think in videogames. I'm sure Miyamoto would agree. So realistic Wii HD expectations from me (revised from my earlier post):

CPU: IBM Power6 dual-core PPC running @ 2.0 GHz 32nm
GPU: ATi Radeon 3450 class GPU w/ 128 MB @ ~1100 MHz GDDR3 64 bit dedicated VRAM or ATi Radeon 3650 class GPU w/ 256 MB @ ~1500 MHz GDDR3 128 bit dedicated VRAM. Either solution at 32 nm.
RAM: 512 MB GGDR3 @ 1500
Storage: DVD-related storage medium currently used in Wii as well as 20 GB harddrive.
Power usage: 50-75 watts.
 
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My bet

  • It will launch at $250 with almost instant profitability by hardware
  • It will be 100% backward compatible with Wii
  • It can launch in as early as early 2010 with HD capability, because analog TV broadcast will end in 2009 in the US, 2011 in Japan, 2010 in Germany.
  • It has at least one new element that enriches gameplay like the Wii remote did for Wii

People should stop writing about what computing performance they want for the next Nintendo console, instead they should think what Nintendo can do with the $250 console price in 2010. Personally I think specialized hardware will become even more important than a general-purpose processor. But it's almost a sure thing that if they try to maintain the growth they try to absorb the current PS3/360 market as early as possible before PS4/720 take off. It won't be difficult for them to do that with the partnership with IBM and AMD. Also an earlier launch date than others must be Nintendo's priority since they have to take action before other companies release Wii-like consoles. But it's not their intent to self-cannibalize their own successful Wii market, the update will be graceful with an affordable price tag.

As for a new element, it may be a completely new thing, but also it's possible that it's something that complements what the Wii remote can do today.
 
Well if the 360 is $199 in 2008 with it's specs,I would imagine a Wii 2 for $250 in 2011 would get you at least what the 360 is today while still being profitable. I don't think that's overly optimistic. The only uncertainty that remains would be whether they include a Blue-ray drive.
Is there any disk storage option for Nintendo that sit's beyond current DVD storage capacity and a full on Blue-ray drive? Something that allows them to address increased storage needs but allows them to avoid BD-ROM liscence fees?

Edit: Just to be clear,I'm not certain that Nintendo will deliver a Wii 2 equal in power to a 360,but I certainly believe that they could if they choose to and still remain affordable and profitable.
 
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fearsomepirate said:
That was a lateral technology move. GBC games would still run on the original Game Boy.

GBA didn't sell as many units as the original Game Boy.

What I meant by a "faster Gamecube" is a machine that basically takes the same philosophy of design as Gamecube, but basically put new silicon in it, much like the PS2 was the same design philosophy of the PS1, but with much more modern silicon. I think that should have been obvious given the context of the discussion (and the many discussions we've had on this board), but it obviously wasn't, so now I'm explaining it.

There was a sharp distinction. Hardcore gamers played complex games on home computers like the Commodore 64 and Amiga. The NES was for children and idiots.


I would roughly define the "hardcore" as gamers who believe that they belong to an elite class of gamers and mentally set themselves off from the majority of gamers, whom they regard as not being real gamers. It's an attitude, not a class of video games. When applied to games, it means little more than "A game that I, a hardcore gamer, like," which just confirms that it's really an attitude more than anything. That seems to be the only consistent, workable definition.



I think the N64 and the SNES were all about catering to the core. And in my opinion, the N64 was more "hardcore" than the PS1. The PS1 was designed around appealing to people who previously didn't care about gaming by impressing them with cinematics and epic sound tracks. To a hardcore Ultima fan, Final Fantasy VII was practically a "non-game," a terribly easy, simplistic affair with more focus on pretty pictures and movies than being a true RPG. You don't have to look hard, even on this forum, for people praising Playstation for taking gaming "mainstream" with its cinematics and media playback. But when Wii makes gaming even more mainstream with its intuitive controller and social games, suddenly, cinematics and epic soundtracks define "hardcore," and we don't want the mainstream ruining gaming (news flash: the hardcore SHMUP and RPG fans thought that the Playstation ruined gaming). Having lots of non-gaming functions is good when it's movie and music playback, but bad when it's having a brain training game.
Click to expand...



My god get off your high horse. Hardcore or not NO ONE will ever see games as more that a toy. Everyone that tried to change that model failed. At least nintendo saw the light with N64/Gamecube , it cost 20 times as much to please "hardcore" or "simulation" gamers. So why should you risk your business and waste billions catering to a bunch of spoiled cry-baby dregs from the movie industry?

Its really pointless and reckless to cater to them as a your main market share.

That is the of things reality now...

Why go after them and you can build a game for the non-gamer for 1/10 of the budget and they'll be happy with it and buy 40-50 clones of the same game?
Even though I am a hardcore gamer(street fighter 3/SSBM/CvS2/Gunz hardcore gamer) it saddens me to see this trend. But its the way things are going.
 
one said:
My bet

  • It will launch at $250 with almost instant profitability by hardware
  • It will be 100% backward compatible with Wii
  • It can launch in as early as early 2010 with HD capability, because analog TV broadcast will end in 2009 in the US, 2011 in Japan, 2010 in Germany.
  • It has at least one new element that enriches gameplay like the Wii remote did for Wii

People should stop writing about what computing performance they want for the next Nintendo console, instead they should think what Nintendo can do with the $250 console price in 2010. Personally I think specialized hardware will become even more important than a general-purpose processor. But it's almost a sure thing that if they try to maintain the growth they try to absorb the current PS3/360 market as early as possible before PS4/720 take off. It won't be difficult for them to do that with the partnership with IBM and AMD. Also an earlier launch date than others must be Nintendo's priority since they have to take action before other companies release Wii-like consoles. But it's not their intent to self-cannibalize their own successful Wii market, the update will be graceful with an affordable price tag.

As for a new element, it may be a completely new thing, but also it's possible that it's something that complements what the Wii remote can do today.
Click to expand...


Since ATi was bought out by AMD does that mean nintendo can put AMD chip in WiiHD?

AMD64 2Ghz
Custom ATi card based off X1600 w/TEV unit(16 inputs < 32 or 64 inputs) with true 32 bit textures
PPU(by then it should be cheap and offset the advantes the Ps3/Xbox360 have in hit detection/physics)
 
Why go after them and you can build a game for the non-gamer for 1/10 of the budget and they'll be happy with it and buy 40-50 clones of the same game?
Even though I am a hardcore gamer(street fighter 3/SSBM/CvS2/Gunz hardcore gamer) it saddens me to see this trend. But its the way things are going.
Click to expand...

Um... hardcore gaming died around 1997.
 
DeadlyNinja said:
Um... hardcore gaming died around 1997.
Click to expand...

No it hasn't the casual/novice market became alot bigger.

I mean the fighter game scene(even though its not as big as past years) in arcades like japan and socal (wonderland arc) is NOT softcore or casual. Guilty Gear is NOT a casual game and neither is the Virtua Fighters.

Sad thing is "hardcore"(or complex/high detail) games don't sell very well. Easy to play casual games that take almost no time to learn do sell. Ever wonder why MvC2 and the dead or alive sold well...because they were really fun....and really broken...

casuals care about how fun a game is more than depth and balence. hardcore gamers care about the complexity,balence,customization,variety and replay value.
Guess what customer is the least energy(and money) used and the most yields(money,name brand recognition,market share)? I mean all you have to do is make a fun game change the formula slightly and clone it 60,000 times and reap with the casuals.


Its just smart business,hardcore gamers are expensive now'a'days.
 
casuals care about how fun a game is more than depth and balence. hardcore gamers care about the complexity,balence,customization,variety and replay value.
Click to expand...

And here I am thinking games are there to have fun. I think anyone that calls themselves hardcore and sees games as anything other than a way of entertaining themselves should get a freaking life. Games are for fun, even more complex games are still ment to be fun, only a other type of fun.

But hardcore doesnt really exist anymore. How many people, even those that call themselves harcore, do you see playing games like contra? Really, hardcore is when you got like 3 continues, no saves and need to remember every enemy and every bullet in every level if you want to stand a chance of winning. Or like the really old games where you need to be on exactly the right pixel to continue. Now if you can be botherd with that than you can call yourself hardcore. But really how many people want that today? no one, and those how do are still with their old 8 and 16 bit systems, not the new consoles. They dont have anything really hardcore. All those so called hardcore games with lots of options and all, most people can still finish them.
 
tongue_of_colicab said:
And here I am thinking games are there to have fun. I think anyone that calls themselves hardcore and sees games as anything other than a way of entertaining themselves should get a freaking life. Games are for fun, even more complex games are still ment to be fun, only a other type of fun.

But hardcore doesnt really exist anymore. How many people, even those that call themselves harcore, do you see playing games like contra? Really, hardcore is when you got like 3 continues, no saves and need to remember every enemy and every bullet in every level if you want to stand a chance of winning. Or like the really old games where you need to be on exactly the right pixel to continue. Now if you can be botherd with that than you can call yourself hardcore. But really how many people want that today? no one, and those how do are still with their old 8 and 16 bit systems, not the new consoles. They dont have anything really hardcore. All those so called hardcore games with lots of options and all, most people can still finish them.
Click to expand...


I play Street fighter 3,SFA3,SSBM,Mario kart and several other games competively. See the difference is I want to win. Its fun to win. Playing the game is ok but winning is much much sweeter. Especially when you win a bet for $2,000 off my seemingly useless skills.
 
casuals care about how fun a game is more than depth and balence. hardcore gamers care about the complexity,balence,customization,variety and replay value.
Click to expand...

Too bad most of today's "hardcore" games don't have any depth or complexity. I mean, seriously, have you played Wii Play and COD4? I can probably talk more about the different games in Wii Play than COD4's walk forward and shoot gameplay. Granted, I'm not saying Wii Play is more hardcore than COD4, but complexity is overrated, especially when games aren't very complex at all. I can name you a game with gameplay that would require and encyclopedia to grasp the basics, but no one would play it.

What makes a player hardcore to me is someone who goes above and beyond just playing what's hot right now. People who over come difficulties like learning a brand new language/over coming the language barrier just to play their favorite series; people who play games because they love games; people who are willing to give anything a chance; and people who aren't pressured into thinking they should play this and that just cause someone says so.

Today's so called "hardcore" crowd are also the same people cowering over the difficulty of Castlevania Order of Ecclasia, Megaman 9, and Legend of Kage 2. The irony is 2 of those games on that list aren't even hard. Just look at some reviews of people complaining about them being hard. It's because they lack real game experience, and now all of a sudden, something comes along and they don't know what to do. It's hilarious because I can beat the game. Any game I can beat does not qualify as hard because I consider my skills to be very average.
 
Discussion on types of gamers isn't suitable for this thread, let alone the Technology Forum. Any further OT comments will be pruned.
 
Quote:
Nintendo Co.'s sales are speeding along faster than a getaway car, shrugging off economic woes as if they were bugs on the windshield.

Its Wii video game console continues to be sold out in many stores. Sales of its DS hand-held console remain hot despite its being a 4-year-old product, ancient by game-technology standards.

Sales of the Wii Fit exercise game, launched in May, are on track to surpass those of one of 2008's bestselling titles, Grand Theft Auto IV, by the end of the year, according to projections by Wedbush Morgan Securities.

All that has driven up the Kyoto, Japan, company's market value to nearly $45 billion, on par with Walt Disney Co.

The man at the wheel in North America is Reggie Fils-Aime. The 47-year-old is sometimes called the Regginator. It's easy to see why. As president of Nintendo of America, Fils-Aime has relentlessly promoted his company's products to mainstream consumers, expanding its marketing efforts in such unlikely places as AARP Magazine and Good Housekeeping and on daytime talk shows.



Quote:
What measures has Nintendo taken to prevent a shortage of Wii consoles this holiday?

Nintendo has continually raised the production levels of the Wii hardware. We're now producing 2.4 million units a month worldwide. Last year, we made 1.6 million a month. So we've made a 33% increase. One of our competitors projects they will sell 10 million consoles worldwide this year. For us, that's three months of production. We're producing an unprecedented level of hardware to try to meet demand.


http://www.latimes.com/technology/la-fi-nintendo27-2008oct27,0,6221366.story

If people keep sanping up the wii's i doubt we will see a new one in 2010. If they can really sell 10m through the holiday alone then forget it. However this may end up hurting them next gen. If they resist a change to long because of the profits the wii is bringing in , then ms and sony can come in with next gen systems that make the wii look longer in the tooth and next gen motion controls that will take away their wow factor. Its cool for nintendo when they are the only ones doing it , but when everyone is doing it , people will start to notice the faults of the wii.
 
I dont think Nintendo will wait to long, it will probably go as sony does know. Release a new console, but keep the ps2 on the market. That shouldnt be a problem for nintendo, if the wii keeps selling stores will probably be glade to keep it along with the new machine.
 
tongue_of_colicab said:
I dont think Nintendo will wait to long, it will probably go as sony does know. Release a new console, but keep the ps2 on the market. That shouldnt be a problem for nintendo, if the wii keeps selling stores will probably be glade to keep it along with the new machine.
Click to expand...

Yea but if the demand continues to grow and they don't drop the price point what do they do. Put out a wii hd for $500 or drop the current wii from $250 down to something more reasonable and put the wii hd out at $250.

If nintendo is still generating alot of wii sales they may not want to switch and hope lightning can strike twice.
 
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