Next gen lighting technologies - voxelised, traced, and everything else *spawn*

Discussion in 'Rendering Technology and APIs' started by Scott_Arm, Aug 21, 2018.

  1. troyan

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    But there isnt 1spp in Battlefield 5. "Low" has only 13% rays per resolution. And yet the performance impact is only slighty better than with Ultra (40%)...
     
  2. DavidGraham

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    Big ones yes (tree tops and big bushes), small ones no (grass, leaves). You can see that in the TechReport video and HardwareUnboxed. PCGH stated the same too. And now ComputerBase as well.

    https://www.computerbase.de/2018-12/battlefield-v-raytracing-dxr-patch-benchmark/2/

    I don't remember seeing them in under the ray tracing section in the bug report. They were excluded on purpose.
    Yes they are, but reflected in SSR.
     
    #542 DavidGraham, Dec 6, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2018
  3. Scott_Arm

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    Which means the bottleneck is not ray casting, but somewhere in the shading. They're not hitting good utilization rates of the other parts of the gpu when ray tracing reflections.
     
  4. eloyc

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    Wasn't the point of RTRT to get the ultimate, perfect reflections? If we still have to mix "perfect" but incomplete reflections with SSR or other tricks, I don't know... I think I'd prefer they use the resources for real time GI + shadows, which would be great for destructible stuff. It's just that this "look, these are perfect reflections, but they are not, actually" seems a bit absurd. Or it could be just me being a little bit grumpy, now.
     
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  5. DavidGraham

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    You are still getting those for the vast majority of objects, except small foliage (grass and flying leaves). So dynamic material reflections are still there, off screen reflections are still there, artifact free reflections are still there. Again except for the small foliage part.
    You are not grumpy, I think this is a middle ground solution from DICE until they implement the hybrid ray march system, which swaps SSR with RT when SSR fails.
     
    #545 DavidGraham, Dec 6, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2018
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  6. Shifty Geezer

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    Game graphics have always been faked. Baked GI is GI, but not really. Would you pull it out? 'Volumetric' particle smoke is thick clouds, but not really. Should we get rid of smoke altogether then? You could go on and on. At the end of the day, is the result better than using for somethihg else, which, as you say, may well be better in lighting. However, these 'perfect' reflections are true reflections so a notable compromised step up.
     
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  7. JoeJ

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    I guess we have to lower expections a bit, because if we had perfect reflections, we would already have perfect GI too.

    But the worse limitation here is not the combination with SSR (which is interesting: You could ignore expensive foliage during RT and get that from screen space instead?).
    I think it's more the fallback to static cube maps for rough materials. So we still see unoccluded reflections with baked GI, and that's the main artifact of PBS in current games IMO.
    It would be nice to use RT AO to reduce this, but BFV is too much of an outdoor game i guess and the artifact shows only indoors usually.

    I'd like to know how Metro / Enlisted do this. If anyone has some guesses...?
     
  8. eloyc

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    Yes, yes, I know all the other benefits, which I like. I'm just consciously pushing my demand a bit in this... :cool2: Maybe to make a point so that this could be discussed.

    I've been supporting Dice and Nvidia for their move with RTX and I've shown my enthusiasm and questioned the excessive criticism towards it in several threads in this forum, so I think it's clear that I'm (mostly) fine with RTRT. It's just that I find it a bit of a contradiction in the specific aspect I mentioned, that's all. And by no means my opinion is "everything or nothing", so no, I don't think we should get rid of everything that is not 100% perfect. I actually agree with you and I understand that it's a proper reply to my previous post, which may seem a bit contradictory with my previous speech.
     
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  9. Scott_Arm

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    This vid goes into some reasonable detail about implementation.

     
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  10. OCASM

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    This is just the beginning of the hybrid rasterization-raytracing era. Perfect RT in AAA games is ways off still.
     
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  11. milk

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    I'm sure shadowing will prove a much more efficient use of ray tracing resources, because it requires no further shading. As soon as the ray has gotten a hit, you have all the info you need. It might be the case Ray tracing, when hardware accelerated, proves to be no more expensive than using shadowmaps. I'm eager to see the results.
     
    #551 milk, Dec 6, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2018
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  12. eloyc

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    Thankfully, we'll see that soon with Metro: Exodus.
     
  13. JoeJ

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    Thanks, sounds like a first application of spatiotemporal variance filtering for GI.
    I guess instead path tracing they shade the hit points with direct light and shadow maps.
     
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  14. Dictator

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    Grass and leaves were not at all a part of DXR reflections last patch, now with hybrid ray marching they are included as an SSR overlay onto the RT reflections along with decals and a couple other things.

    Hybrid system though only workks for some pixels and not all and has some specific requirements to actually apply as far as I understand it, but here is a screen where you can see objects not in the BVH being included due to it:
    [​IMG]
    It all depends how much performance people are willing to be OK with - also, somethings may not actually be able to be seen in RT reflections anyway no matter what due to when they are applied in the pipeline. Decals for example in frostbite would never show up no matter what unless they used the hybrid ray marching.
     
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  15. Scott_Arm

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  16. DavidGraham

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    So they shaved off an entire 1ms of rendering time from DXR with the parallel execution optimization, the higher the resolution (and hence the higher the cost of a frame) the bigger this impacts performance.
     
  17. jlippo

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    #557 jlippo, Dec 9, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2018
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  18. Scott_Arm

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    I time stamped to when they start demoing rtx.
     
  19. DavidGraham

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  20. Kaotik

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    This would only be true if the performance with raytracing enabled would be dependent on the rest of the rendering performance and not raytracing performance, and I'm pretty sure everything suggests it's the raytracing performance that's the limiting factor, which would be just as slow no matter which API you're using.
     
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