Next Gen GTA game will be PS3 exclusive

[scooby_dooby]

Sloppy coding, bad compression techniques and rushed launch window?

The argument isn't "will some games go over 7GB" because of course there will. The question is will this be a signifigant problem and will it have any effect whatsoever on cross platform ports?

I think dev's will find many techniques for reducing file size that won't necessarily mean a worse game, and 7GB is alow to work with.

 

[Farid]

Really.

You mean like GTA: SA where all audio is slapped in one folder with 3 subfolders? Where all the models where in ONE FOLDER with 4 sub-folders? All the animations in 2 files?

The only folder in the root directory that has a deep tree structure is DATA, and the size is.....get ready for it.......... 19 MB!

The data packing in GTA SA is optimized for streaming (cf: data redundancy, which was the point I made).
They just decided to divide the datas in three (actually four) main components. The models, the animation and the sound (+radios being the only thing being continously streamed from the disc).

I think dev's will find many techniques for reducing file size that won't necessarily mean a worse game, and 7GB is alow to work with.

Now that's another interesting point.
What techniques for instance? You said that files redundancy could be done without, which is not a possibility, seeing disc management and access times/seek times on free-roaming games are one, if not the first, of the priorities for the developer.

So what other things could be done, in the X360/PS3 port case, not in general?

The MP3/TC/File compression techs argument could be relevant in the Xbox/PS2 situation (Seeing how far more advance, technologically, the Xbox is compared to the PS2), but in the PS3/X360 scenario, what other possibility could exist other than what I stated earlier?

For me it's still, seeing that, as far as I know, there's no magical N64 file compression algorithm that could lead to a difference between the PS3 and teh X360, it's either the game could fit on a DVD9 on both machines (Without counting supplemental songs or other supplemental stuff like this), or it's a different game that's released on both platforms (Even if it shares a lot in common).

 

[scooby_dooby]

The data packing in GTA SA is optimized for streaming (cf: data redundancy, which was the point I made).
They just decided to divide the datas in three (actually four) main components. The models, the animation and the sound (+radios being the only thing being continously streamed from the disc).

Except your point was rendered meaningless with the realization that this "redundant" data only amounts to 19MB. An insignifigant amount of space.

What techniques for instance? You said that files redundancy could be done without, which is not a possibility, seeing disc management and access times/seek times on free-roaming games are one, if not the first, of the priorities for the developer.

How about good practices for a start? These dev's have 5 years of sloppy games with no attention to filesize, they've had tons of room, and never filled it. They will have to take a new approach when they begin to fill up the games, they will have to make better use of their disc space and constantly be conscious of how much disc space they have available. That will make a huge difference. And data compression will be huge. I mean, the PS2 was incapable of decompressing MP3's for GTA3: SA!

BTW what I said was if they packed in a bunch of duplicate data to decrease load times for a BR disc, that redundant data could be removed for the DVD-9 version of course with longer load times(however seeing as we don't know how the BR and DVD will compare for read speed, DVD could still end up be faster)

Anyways, you're skipping over the biggest issues here. First of all, explain why you think 7.4GB will not be enough room when the game engine for GTA3 was only 1.16 GB.

Secondly, your redundant data was only 19mb which would make it doable on any system next gen, even if it increases by an order of magnitude.

 

[pegisys]

I think procedural textures will save a lot of disc space, things like floor, grass, walls and street textures could be taken care of this way easily and give better results from not having tiled textures all over the place

and if I was rockstar I would come up with some procedural method for the pedestrian character models aswell it will get rid of all the repeated characters and save on content creation aswell as disc space

 

[Farid]

Secondly, your redundant data was only 19mb which would make it doable on any system next gen, even if it increases by an order of magnitude.

In this particular case it's true, never said otherwise.

Anyways, you're skipping over the biggest issues here. First of all, explain why you think 7.4GB will not be enough room when the game engine for GTA3 was only 1.16 GB.

I never said, nor implied, that I thought that GTA4 won't fit on a DVD9, why are you asking me that?
Why should I explain something that I did not come up with in the first place?
You folks had a discussion about the possibility of a problem for the GTA4 if the game used a lot of the BRD space, it's not my conjecture at all.
I for one, cannot tell what R* could ask for disk space next-gen, either way.

 

[scooby_dooby]

When you said:
In free-roaming game world, you need to pack all your datas in small chunks that contains all (or almost) the datas needed for rendering a scene (You also have to manage the place of thoses pack on the disc).

All the datas means textures/models/sounds redundancy.

You made a definative statement about ALL free-roaming world games. You claimed ALL models needed to be duplicated, and that they had to specifically manage the placement of these files.

That was just plain wrong, and my analysis of the GTA3 disc shows it. All data, textures and models are not duplicated, despite there being another 60% of disc space available.

So when you claimed free roaming games had to dupliacate all textures and models for every scene you were wrong, at least admit it.

 

[Farid]

Hmm...

First:

In free-roaming game world, you need to pack all your datas in small chunks that contains all (or almost) the datas needed for rendering a scene (You also have to manage the place of thoses pack on the disc).

All the datas means textures/models/sounds redundancy.

Secondly, you said that GTA3 engine, doesn't proceed like this, and I said:

In this particular case it's true, never said otherwise.

Anyway, what I replied to was that:

Not if R* puts lots a duplicate data on the Blu-ray disc.

HUH? If they put duplicate data, then since it's redundant it can simply be removed for the X360 version.

And it was not about GTA3's engine, but about mckmas8808's hypothesis saying what if R* put a lot of duplicated datas on the BRD to which you replied that thoses duplicata could be "simply" removed.

My point was that data redundancy was used to help seek times (Tons of game used that tech.... Not GTA3. OK.) and that if a game used a lot of redundant datas on a BRD, you couldn't do without it on a DVD9 without cutting something down.
If they have, for GTA4 an Engine that uses duplicate data for fast streaming, there won't be any "simple" solutions to make the data streaming work differently on another machine.

Your opinion, in the other hand, is that the GTA4 engine will be like the GTA3 engine and that in that case, data redundancy would not be a problem. A thing that I cannot discuss.

 

[jvd]

Vysex as i've already stated the xbox 360 has acess to many forms of compresion that were not avalible to the ps2 or even the xbox .

I see no reason why these games will use bluray esp within the first year or so of launch when bluray discs will most likely be much more expensive than dvd9 discs .

Non of the gta games on the xbox came close to filling up a dvd9 so i don't see why suddenly they would need more than double the space on the xbox 360 esp with advanced forms of comprsion.

Oblivion is 1 disc and has over 50 hours of voice taking up half the dvd and still has a massive free roaming world with next gen graphics

 

[mckmas8808]

Vysex as i've already stated the xbox 360 has acess to many forms of compresion that were not avalible to the ps2 or even the xbox .

I see no reason why these games will use bluray esp within the first year or so of launch when bluray discs will most likely be much more expensive than dvd9 discs .

Non of the gta games on the xbox came close to filling up a dvd9 so i don't see why suddenly they would need more than double the space on the xbox 360 esp with advanced forms of comprsion.

Oblivion is 1 disc and has over 50 hours of voice taking up half the dvd and still has a massive free roaming world with next gen graphics

That still doesn't mean that they won't use the Blu-ray disc. Dan Houser has already stated that he wants a next-generation disc to use. He has already said. Already as in past tense(i.e. before the next-gen started).

 

[Hardknock]

That still doesn't mean that they won't use the Blu-ray disc. Dan Houser has already stated that he wants a next-generation disc to use. He has already said. Already as in past tense(i.e. before the next-gen started).

Where was this said?

 

[mckmas8808]

Where was this said?

It was said on eurogamer.

The danger is currently the storage medium (DVD), and one we thing we’re all praying for in the next round of hardware is that they don’t just go, ‘It’s DVD again’. We’ve done some clever stuff with compressing it, but we were virtually full on the disc with Vice City – this time we’re overfilling the disc to the max.â€

 

[mckmas8808]

It was said on eurogamer.

My bad on the double post. But the quote is in this article Hardknock.

http://www.eurogamer.net/article.php?article_id=56025

 

[jvd]

That still doesn't mean that they won't use the Blu-ray disc. Dan Houser has already stated that he wants a next-generation disc to use. He has already said. Already as in past tense(i.e. before the next-gen started).

he also said vice city filled up a dvd. Which we already know isn't true in the case of the xbox and pc versions both which offer less compresion tech than the xbox 360

So that gives us 2 choices. Ps3 offers less compression than an xbox or he is just hyping bluray for sony .


I don't see how gta 4 can have more than twice disc space requirements as oblivion . Do you really think rockstar is goign to lisecne 50 hours of music for one game ? HTat will be extremely expensive .

 

[mckmas8808]

he also said vice city filled up a dvd. Which we already know isn't true in the case of the xbox and pc versions both which offer less compresion tech than the xbox 360

So that gives us 2 choices. Ps3 offers less compression than an xbox or he is just hyping bluray for sony .


I don't see how gta 4 can have more than twice disc space requirements as oblivion . Do you really think rockstar is goign to lisecne 50 hours of music for one game ? HTat will be extremely expensive .

Why would he hype Blu-ray for Sony before Sony even announced that blu-ray would be in the PS3? And GTA4 could easily have more than 50 hours of audio total. What makes Oblivion the end all be all of audio time?

 

[jvd]

Why would he hype Blu-ray for Sony before Sony even announced that blu-ray would be in the PS3? And GTA4 could easily have more than 50 hours of audio total. What makes Oblivion the end all be all of audio time?

He was pre hyping , surely he would know about the ps3 before it was announced.

As for gta4 , unless they switch over to all original music liscensing fees will be very expensive .

while it can have more than 50 hours total how many hours of that is required. How much of it isn't just music .

Oblivion is a next gen game that does everything gta games have done and fits on a dvd .



I also notice how you don't say anything about his claims of virtualy filling up a dvd with vice city. How is using half a disc virtualy filling it up mckmass ? Or do you not want to comment because it doesn't fit in with your pro bluray stance

 

[mckmas8808]

He was pre hyping , surely he would know about the ps3 before it was announced.

As for gta4 , unless they switch over to all original music liscensing fees will be very expensive .

while it can have more than 50 hours total how many hours of that is required. How much of it isn't just music .

Oblivion is a next gen game that does everything gta games have done and fits on a dvd .



I also notice how you don't say anything about his claims of virtualy filling up a dvd with vice city. How is using half a disc virtualy filling it up mckmass ? Or do you not want to comment because it doesn't fit in with your pro bluray stance

I think he was talking about DVD5 not DVD9. Streaming a DVD9 would put a little bit of stress on the ol' PS2.


And so I ask you this. Why is it that Obvilon has 50 hours of voice acting and you think that it's needed, but if GTA4 has it then you say, "how many of that is required"?

And why would Dan Houser pre-hype for the PS3 2 years before release? Why would he hype it before Sony gets to even hype it? And why don't you think that Dan Houser was being honest when he said that they would hate the next-generation systems to use DVDs? If he said it, then obviously he really feels that way. Nothing wrong with him voicing his opioion is it?

 

[jvd]

think he was talking about DVD5 not DVD9. Streaming a DVD9 would put a little bit of stress on the ol' PS2.

which means a xbox 360 offers him double the space of his old dev platform without even adding in compresion .

Not only that but if we assume he is talking dvd 5 then he is talking about dvd 5 when he says he hopes for something new. That something new can also include dvd9 as it offers double the space.

And so I ask you this. Why is it that Obvilon has 50 hours of voice acting and you think that it's needed, but if GTA4 has it then you say, "how many of that is required"?

Oblivion has over 50 hours od voice and music .

Gta has a ton of music. How much of that is required esp with streaming so easy on the xbox 360 and many users have a hardrive ?

Also does each random thug running around need 80 lines of dialoge ?

How much is really needed. I know that most of oblivions voices are directly related to the plot and side quests .

I've played past gta games and I don't see them needing 50 hours of just voice acting for the game. And has posted before by others they wnat 500 songs or whatever.

And why would Dan Houser pre-hype for the PS3 2 years before release? Why would he hype it before Sony gets to even hype it? And why don't you think that Dan Houser was being honest when he said that they would hate the next-generation systems to use DVDs? If he said it, then obviously he really feels that way. Nothing wrong with him voicing his opioion is it?

I haven o clue. Why did he claim that he filled up a dvd when dvd9 offered double the room of dvd5 that he didn't even fill up ?

aslo why do you feel that 2 years ago he knew what compresions the xbox 360 and ps3 would offer when he made this claims . How does he know that the extra 4 gigs on dvd9 doesn't offer him 8 times the room of the ps2 single layer dvd with compression ?

 

[scooby_dooby]

Uhm, not to point out the obvious, but last time I checked 400 songs was only ~1.5GB in MP3 format.

So, if the difference between the 2 versions is 2000 songs for the PS3 version, and 800 for the X360 version consumers won't really care.

And the truth is, it's highly doubtful rockstar would spend all that money for the extra 1200 songs just for the PS3 version.

 

[one]

If Frame City Killer fills up DL DVD why not the next iteration of GTA with bigger production value for the next generation. If R* intend to release the next GTA on PS3 first, it'll sell most on PS3, then it's crazy not to optimize it to PS3. But not only to Blu-ray, PS3 has 512MB RAM so it can load 14x data compared to PS2 at any given time.

 

[rosman]

In term of size, do they really have to make a game bigger than san andreas ? I know many ppl who cant finish the mission GTASA, cause it was too long-big. I really dont think they need to make the game fits the size of north america . A game with a size between Vice city and San Andreas is fine, with many interiors.
Just polish the gameplay, physics, gfx and a solid solo mode. And after that a great multiplayer mode ! With music streamed from the internet radio directly !