News & Rumors: Xbox One (codename Durango)

[dobwal]

And what I think is escaping most people about Kinect is that Microsoft requiring it for the use of the console doesn't mean they are going to force the thing down your throat in every single game that you might play, but simply that they want it to be a core part of the user experience of their next console.

I'm sure if it doesn't interest you any, you can by all means stick to exclusive use of the controller.

Even though there are certainly instances where it will be used for games, I think Kinect will mostly be used as a popular consumer device. Something that you use more often to control and navigate your way around your new Xbox and possibly even your television programming in cool or interesting ways than you are busy using it to play every game that gets released.

Kinect as a device guaranteed to be more widely adopted by consumers can be quite big and is something I can easily see catching on. Just because they require Kinect be connected for the console to work doesn't mean that it's purpose is to somehow allow Microsoft to spy on you in your boxers, or to somehow kill the use of controllers in our games. I can see it being used to instantly recognize and then sign in specific users, for example, without their having to go through a list to find their name and sign in. This would obviously be less necessary on a console where only a single person uses it, but I think you all get the idea. And I think it would be nice to instantly go to certain menus of interest by telling the Xbox to go to that specific menu rather than physically wading through a list of menu options before I get to what I'm actually interested in. Is this necessary? Probably not, but it would be nice.

My opinion is that with Kinect as part of the core experience you will see more developers use it in a more nuanced fashion for titles that aren't motion based. I can see it being used as extension of the traditional controller rather than an attempt as a replacement for most games. Head tracking for racing games, leaning around corners in FPSes or leaning in ring of a boxing or fighting game represents just a few examples that Kinect can bring to the 720.

Kinect as a peripheral used by a fraction of the 360 userbase has never encouraged a wide level of adoption in development or much investment for for the vast majority of titles that required Kinect. The Xbox HDD served as a way better example as how much utility an always there HDD offered a console versus the PS2's HDD add on.

 

[Arksine]

And what I think is escaping most people about Kinect is that Microsoft requiring it for the use of the console doesn't mean they are going to force the thing down your throat in every single game that you might play, but simply that they want it to be a core part of the user experience of their next console.

I'm sure if it doesn't interest you any, you can by all means stick to exclusive use of the controller.

Even though there are certainly instances where it will be used for games, I think Kinect will mostly be used as a popular consumer device. Something that you use more often to control and navigate your way around your new Xbox and possibly even your television programming in cool or interesting ways than you are busy using it to play every game that gets released.

Kinect as a device guaranteed to be more widely adopted by consumers can be quite big and is something I can easily see catching on. Just because they require Kinect be connected for the console to work doesn't mean that it's purpose is to somehow allow Microsoft to spy on you in your boxers, or to somehow kill the use of controllers in our games. I can see it being used to instantly recognize and then sign in specific users, for example, without their having to go through a list to find their name and sign in. This would obviously be less necessary on a console where only a single person uses it, but I think you all get the idea. And I think it would be nice to instantly go to certain menus of interest by telling the Xbox to go to that specific menu rather than physically wading through a list of menu options before I get to what I'm actually interested in. Is this necessary? Probably not, but it would be nice.

I see what you are saying, but you don't provide a good justification as to why its required for basic system operation. I can't think of any justification that isn't nefarious. There are plenty of Kinect features that could be used optionally, such as voice commands, but each of those commands has corresponding controller input (which I and many others prefer). You used biometrics as an example, but that certainly shouldn't be a requirement. Personally I don't want MS taking pictures of me and everyone else in my living room for user authentication.

So my question is, why is it absolutely required? What does MS hope to gain from it? Are they going to force us to use Kinect for UI like they forced Windows 8 to go straight to metro? Do they plan on forcing biometrics?

MS has my full attention here and I'm more worried about this than how many Flops the GPU is capable of (I have already accepted that it will likely be what is rumored).

 

[dagamer]

I see what you are saying, but you don't provide a good justification as to why its required for basic system operation. I can't think of any justification that isn't nefarious. There are plenty of Kinect features that could be used optionally, such as voice commands, but each of those commands has corresponding controller input (which I and many others prefer). You used biometrics as an example, but that certainly shouldn't be a requirement. Personally I don't want MS taking pictures of me and everyone else in my living room for user authentication.

So my question is, why is it absolutely required? What does MS hope to gain from it? Are they going to force us to use Kinect for UI like they forced Windows 8 to go straight to metro? Do they plan on forcing biometrics?

MS has my full attention here and I'm more worried about this than how many Flops the GPU is capable of (I have already accepted that it will likely be what is rumored).

Kinect is required so that game developers can rely on everyone having one. It's similar to how the DualShock controller came out in 1997 and sold fairly well, but very few PSOne games ever required the analog sticks. Then with the PS2, nearly every game uses the snaking sticks and Dpad to do different things, which wouldn't have been possible in the PSOne with the standard controller.

 

[GrimThorne]

Kinect as a peripheral used by a fraction of the 360 userbase has never encouraged a wide level of adoption in development or much investment for for the vast majority of titles that required Kinect. The Xbox HDD served as a way better example as how much utility an always there HDD offered a console versus the PS2's HDD add on.

Yes but it seems now that the fraction will indeed dominate the whole, it reflects in both their engineering and publishing priorities. Microsoft publishes about 2-3 core games a year, compared to the more than 10 Kinect games it publishes.

Microsoft's biggest issue going forward could be perception. If gamers see their new console as an entry level gaming device with intrusive features that are both mandatory and restrictive, they're going to have problems.

It's going to be very important that Microsoft articulate their vision in order to clear the air of persistent rumors and separate the truth from the gossip.

 

[SenjutsuSage]

I really don't believe Kinect on the next Xbox is mostly about gaming. Sure, that will be part of their calculation and I expect some of their more prominent first party titles to involve it in some fashion, hopefully with strong result, but I think the core focus for Microsoft with Kinect on the next Xbox is about providing an impressive, Kinect driven user experience that becomes popular enough to not only makes more people want the new Xbox, but to entice other makers of consumer electronics to want to adopt Kinect in some form as well.

I think having it in core games is actually secondary to Microsoft's goal of wanting millions and millions of people to be blown away, or at the very least impressed with how Kinect works as it relates to controlling the basic to semi-advanced functions of the new Xbox user experience.

My opinion is that with Kinect as part of the core experience you will see more developers use it in a more nuanced fashion for titles that aren't motion based. I can see it being used as extension of the traditional controller rather than an attempt as a replacement for most games. Head tracking for racing games, leaning around corners in FPSes or leaning in ring of a boxing or fighting game represents just a few examples that Kinect can bring to the 720.

Kinect as a peripheral used by a fraction of the 360 userbase has never encouraged a wide level of adoption in development or much investment for for the vast majority of titles that required Kinect. The Xbox HDD served as a way better example as how much utility an always there HDD offered a console versus the PS2's HDD add on.

I tend to agree. Kinect will be an extension of the controller and not a replacement, and with far wider adoption of Kinect on the new Xbox, I think it has the chance to succeed in ways the first Kinect never did.

Kinect is required so that game developers can rely on everyone having one. It's similar to how the DualShock controller came out in 1997 and sold fairly well, but very few PSOne games ever required the analog sticks. Then with the PS2, nearly every game uses the snaking sticks and Dpad to do different things, which wouldn't have been possible in the PSOne with the standard controller.

Very good example. It isn't like gaming isn't important for Microsoft with Kinect, but they have to start somewhere, and the most logical place to start is by making it standard for every xbox user and then see how different developers end up taking advantage of it. Kinect has no chance if it isn't an absolute requirement on the new xbox in some form. Developers have to know that every xbox user will have Kinect.

 

[Arksine]

Kinect is required so that game developers can rely on everyone having one. It's similar to how the DualShock controller came out in 1997 and sold fairly well, but very few PSOne games ever required the analog sticks. Then with the PS2, nearly every game uses the snaking sticks and Dpad to do different things, which wouldn't have been possible in the PSOne with the standard controller.

That's justification for it to be bundled, not justification for it to be connected. If I play a game that requires Kinect (which I suspect will be few and far between) then I can hook it up. But if I'm playing Halo 5 or watching Netflix I shouldn't need it hooked up.

Lets put it this way...as long as Kinect isn't required to be pointed at me for everything I do then I'm okay. I'll just wrap it up and put it behind the Xbox when I'm not using it. But if MS is strong-arming it for UI or UA then I have a problem with it.

 

[ERP]

FWIW I think if it's in the box I'd guess the majority of games will require it, even if it's only for voice input using the mic array.
Once you put a peripheral in the box you dramatically change the way designers think about it.

 

[SenjutsuSage]

That's justification for it to be bundled, not justification for it to be connected. If I play a game that requires Kinect (which I suspect will be few and far between) then I can hook it up. But if I'm playing Halo 5 or watching Netflix I shouldn't need it hooked up.

Lets put it this way...as long as Kinect isn't required to be pointed at me for everything I do then I'm okay. I'll just wrap it up and put it behind the Xbox when I'm not using it. But if MS is strong-arming it for UI or UA then I have a problem with it.

Seriously, don't people own Ipads with cameras? Don't people own cell phones with cameras, even forward facing ones? Don't people have computers and laptops with cameras? Even my tv has a camera. What is it that offends people so much about a simple camera? Do you ever feel the need to hide any of the other cameras in the devices you own?

What's wrong with connecting the damn thing then not bothering with it afterwards if you don't care to use it? You think Microsoft is going to be recording your private life and hosting it on servers for the federal government, law enforcement and for the rest of the world to stare at? Microsoft always seems to bring out the tin foil hats Not suggesting you believe crazy conspiracies, but I'm surprised that there is such a strong resistance to the thing simply being. You can't have a camera connected while you play Halo 5? There are people who have their laptops or Ipads open and in use somewhere near them or next to them as they game.

A simpler idea instead of wrapping it up and tossing it behind the tv would be to just turn the camera in the opposite direction. Have it stare at a wall, have it stare at the bottom of your tv, put a t-shirt or sock over it.

 

[dobwal]

Yes but it seems now that the fraction will indeed dominate the whole, it reflects in both their engineering and publishing priorities. Microsoft publishes about 2-3 core games a year, compared to the more than 10 Kinect games it publishes.

Microsoft's biggest issue going forward could be perception. If gamers see their new console as an entry level gaming device with intrusive features that are both mandatory and restrictive, they're going to have problems.

It's going to be very important that Microsoft articulate their vision in order to clear the air of persistent rumors and separate the truth from the gossip.

Its no more restrictive or mandatory than a traditional controller. It seems MS's requirements for Kinect is to ensure its incorporation into core development by treating it like its a standard piece of the hardware.

Developers might treat Kinect differently if they feel that a significant amount of their target gamers simply don't turn on or use Kinect. Imagine if a dual stick controller was only possible through an add on purchase and all consoles came with something similar to the first PS1 controller. The standard controller setup across all games would be for 1 stick controllers with some developers totally eschewing a dual setup because it adds nothing to the genre of their title and there is no guarantee of the user having a dual stick controller.

To ensure that Kinect gets the upmost support across a broad swath of games, MS needs Kinect to be on and correctly setup on literally every 720. Mandating through functional requirements is a simple way to ensure that scenario.

And I say this while being no fan of cameras being incorporated into literally every popular tech device.

 

[Hardknock]

I am not talking about total game streaming. Please read my comment again and apply some thought to it and you will understand what I am trying to say.

I understand completely what you're saying. You said play "almost immediately as the game downloads". The reason why we can play games as the disc installs is because all the data is already there locally on the disc. So it loads into RAM from disc while it installs to the HDD. You'll still have load times etc... it won't be an "instant on" experience even locally.

You could have an instant on experience over the internet but it would have to be video based (hence the reason Sony is using Gaikai for this exact purpose) as the game data would be too large to "stream" and play as the game is downloaded.

 

[ArcticCircle]

Some people are interpreting "always on, always connected" to mean the console cannot be used offline at all, which I think is an error in reading comprehension.

MS should just copy Steam's system. Need to be online when installing game, one code per game per xbox account. Allow installs to several Xbox machines but only after those machines have been linked to xbox account. Can play offline but cannot get trophies and such while doing so.

Somehow I have feeling that MS will try some fancy solution that will anger both publishers and consumers.

 

[dobwal]

I understand completely what you're saying. You said play "almost immediately as the game downloads". The reason why we can play games as the disc installs is because all the data is already there locally on the disc. So it loads into RAM from disc while it installs to the HDD. You'll still have load times etc... it won't be an "instant on" experience even locally.

You could have an instant on experience over the internet but it would have to be video based (hence the reason Sony is using Gaikai for this exact purpose) as the game data would be too large to "stream" and play as the game is downloaded.

I agree. However, the 720 documents indicated that game streaming would be possible through RemoteFX with cloud gaming taking over during the 720's life time. Its should be noted that the eSRAM, DME, encode/decode logic and i/o bus setup on Durango seems to allow for a robust i/o solution.

 

[Scott_Arm]

I understand completely what you're saying. You said play "almost immediately as the game downloads". The reason why we can play games as the disc installs is because all the data is already there locally on the disc. So it loads into RAM from disc while it installs to the HDD. You'll still have load times etc... it won't be an "instant on" experience even locally.

You could have an instant on experience over the internet but it would have to be video based (hence the reason Sony is using Gaikai for this exact purpose) as the game data would be too large to "stream" and play as the game is downloaded.

All they have to do is give you a base install to get started, and then as you play more of the game is installed in the background, hopefully the "next level" before you need it. Of course, if you have a slow Internet connection, that might not work out too well. It would be the same as how you'd do a background install from a disc as you play.

 

[Arksine]

Seriously, don't people own Ipads with cameras? Don't people own cell phones with cameras, even forward facing ones? Don't people have computers and laptops with cameras? Even my tv has a camera. What is it that offends people so much about a simple camera? Do you ever feel the need to hide any of the other cameras in the devices you own?

What's wrong with connecting the damn thing then not bothering with it afterwards if you don't care to use it? You think Microsoft is going to be recording your private life and hosting it on servers for the federal government, law enforcement and for the rest of the world to stare at? Microsoft always seems to bring out the tin foil hats Not suggesting you believe crazy conspiracies, but I'm surprised that there is such a strong resistance to the thing simply being. You can't have a camera connected while you play Halo 5? There are people who have their laptops or Ipads open and in use somewhere near them or next to them as they game.

A simpler idea instead of wrapping it up and tossing it behind the tv would be to just turn the camera in the opposite direction. Have it stare at a wall, have it stare at the bottom of your tv, put a t-shirt or sock over it.

I'm not worried about it "simply being". I'm okay with it as a feature. I'm wondering why it is required. I'm not worried about them storing pictures for the government. I'm worried about them storing pictures for UA. What happens if there is a false reading? Will I not be able to log in to my XBL account? Do they plan on identifying people and items in my living room for targeted ads? These are things that I would find annoying.

Cell phones, ipads, etc don't use cameras like this. They are typically hidden devices with cameras that can be disabled.

Also I'm worried that they are going to force Kinect for UI. ERP just said its likely going to required for use in most games. I'm not interested in waving my arms and talking to my hardware.

Maybe you don't think these things are a big deal, but I do and I'm not alone. Look, I'm not saying that MS is definitely going to use Kinect in this manner, but these are questions that need to be asked and answered when Durango is presented.

 

[dobwal]

I'm not worried about it "simply being". I'm okay with it as a feature. I'm wondering why it is required. I'm not worried about them storing pictures for the government. I'm worried about them storing pictures for UA. What happens if there is a false reading? Will I not be able to log in to my XBL account? Do they plan on identifying people and items in my living room for targeted ads? These are things that I would find annoying.

Cell phones, ipads, etc don't use cameras like this. They are typically hidden devices with cameras that can be disabled.

Also I'm worried that they are going to force Kinect for UI. ERP just said its likely going to required for use in most games. I'm not interested in waving my arms and talking to my hardware.

Maybe you don't think these things are a big deal, but I do and I'm not alone. Look, I'm not saying that MS is definitely going to use Kinect in this manner, but these are questions that need to be asked and answered when Durango is presented.

I don't want to put words in ERP's mouth, but I interpreted his comments as most developers would incorporate its use not thats its mandated by MS that all developers must add Kinect functionality to thier titles.

I see your concern but I think MS is simply treating Kinect no different than a traditional controller, which is required in order to use the game functionality of a console.

MS wants Kinect to be considered no different than the x, y, b, a, shoulder buttons and analog sticks that exists on a xbox controller.

MS may feels the mandate is necessary to move Kinect beyond a limited gimmicky feature to a full robust and entirely intergrated feature of the 720.

 

[Gubbi]

I'm not worried about it "simply being". I'm okay with it as a feature. I'm wondering why it is required.

It is going to be required because speech is going to be the main input method for the many services that wiill run on the machine (Netflix / Spotify / IE 10 / Xbox music / movie) and for navigating apps, content and possibly in-game menus as well. Gestures will also be involved in this.

Kinect 2 is required because it will increase the ease of use for the services that will bring revenue to Microsoft and partners.

Ubiquitous head tracking and speech recognition would be a win in every game.

The games that will use body motion as input is going to be a (possibly big) niche, IMO.

Cheers

 

[-tkf-]

It is going to be required because speech is going to be the main input method for the many services that wiill run on the machine (Netflix / Spotify / IE 10 / Xbox music / movie) and for navigating apps, content and possibly in-game menus as well. Gestures will also be involved in this.

Kinect 2 is required because it will increase the ease of use for the services that will bring revenue to Microsoft and partners.

Ubiquitous head tracking and speech recognition would be a win in every game.

The games that will use body motion as input is going to be a (possibly big) niche, IMO.

Cheers

If it works then it can add to games, but if it's just slightly flawed it will be annoying, we all know how we react to any UI that is just slighty slow or off.

 

[dobwal]

If it works then it can add to games, but if it's just slightly flawed it will be annoying, we all know how we react to any UI that is just slighty slow or off.

I think this notion is what encouraged Durango's design.

 

[Pozer]

This thread is going to be so archaic to read in 5 years. Reminds me of the fears on xbox360 being online even while playing single player and the fears/anxiety that caused. Yet when is was all said and done achievements were a big drive to new xbox live subscribers for boasting XP scores, atleast early this generation. The ability to still be part of a community while playing single player was huge and we take it for granted now.

I get the feeling the level of interactivity MS is planning with Durango-Kinect2 will be groundbreaking as well. If MS integrates this like I think they are planning and can come in at $100 cheaper than PS4, with 3rd party games of near equal quality. They will win a lot of mainstream shoppers. Not to mention future VR addons using Kinect tracking, setting up xbox 1440 to be VR mandatory builtin. We are in for a good gaming future.

 

[GrimThorne]

I get the feeling the level of interactivity MS is planning with Durango-Kinect2 will be groundbreaking as well. If MS integrates this like I think they are planning and can come in at $100 cheaper than PS4, with 3rd party games of near equal quality. They will win a lot of mainstream shoppers. Not to mention future VR addons using Kinect tracking, setting up xbox 1440 to be VR mandatory builtin. We are in for a good gaming future.

For Microsoft's sake it better be groundbreaking as they won't be able to sell their console on poweror unique graphical capabilities this time around. If the leaks hold true, they're going with unremarkable hardware this generation, so quite honestly whatever they're planning with Kinect is going to have to be nothing short of miraculous. Because aside from Kinect, there isn't much left to Durango to talk about.