News & Rumors: Xbox One (codename Durango)

[ThatGamer]

That is what I thought at first. However they are likely going to overcharge early adopters. They will likely sell out regardless if it is 300 or 500.

 

[astrograd]

It is, but I'm questioning why they're calling it alpha specifications and not just original specifications. Alpha specifications seem to imply they think those were just the specs for the alpha kits (ie they don't really know what they're talking about and are making stuff up from known info)

This post of yours is a complete non-sequitur. Nothing about what was said logically leads to what you are asserting. Read the link again. All it is saying there is that they took the same architecture as was originally given to devs and beefed everything up. The point of that sentence wasn't to draw comparisons with the most recent beta kits, but to make the point that the architecture itself hasn't changed...which would be why they'd highlight the first dev kits given to 3rd parties.

 

[expletive]

I agree. But the thing is, such an analysis contradicts the latest rumors about the box pricing : 500 US$. I personnally find this figure to be quite high to achieve market penetration.

I still believe there will be a $100-$150 price point model, whether its a redesigned 360, 360 with more ram, something new,etc You can't compete with Apple TV and roku with something over $150.

This post of yours is a complete non-sequitur. Nothing about what was said logically leads to what you are asserting. Read the link again. All it is saying there is that they took the same architecture as was originally given to devs and beefed everything up. The point of that sentence wasn't to draw comparisons with the most recent beta kits, but to make the point that the architecture itself hasn't changed...which would be why they'd highlight the first dev kits given to 3rd parties.

To that end, what is the worst situation that could happen if MS kept all 3rd parties in the dark about spec upgrades? The only titles it could really impact is console only multiplat titles (since PC games would exceed console specs anyway). Even for console multiplats, a surprise spec increase for 3rd parties would still guarantee they could be no worse than the competition.

 

[dobwal]

I agree. But the thing is, such an analysis contradicts the latest rumors about the box pricing : 500 US$. I personnally find this figure to be quite high to achieve market penetration.

Unless there something else in the box. Maybe there is a 360 based media extender that requires the main console for full operation.

Maybe the main console remotely services the ME for 360 games like a 360's optical drive.

 

[dobwal]

I still believe there will be a $100-$150 price point model, whether its a redesigned 360, 360 with more ram, something new,etc You can't compete with Apple TV and roku with something over $150.



To that end, what is the worst situation that could happen if MS kept all 3rd parties in the dark about spec upgrades? The only titles it could really impact is console only multiplat titles (since PC games would exceed console specs anyway). Even for console multiplats, a surprise spec increase for 3rd parties would still guarantee they could be no worse than the competition.

MS does have a patent thats maybe applicable to the yukon design. The patent revolves around big little (or vice versa?) configuration using a virtual OS. It allows the hypervisor to control what cores are used to services particular tasks. The hardware appears opaque to the OS which supposedly allows the upgrading of the underlying hardware as well as allows the hypervisor to use remote hardware to service.

 

[(((interference)))]

Also in the Yukon leak we see that they are planning Fortaleza glasses and a Cloud Rendering platform. This seems likely as well since Dave Cutler has been known to join the Xbox team. He was a lead developer of Windows Azure (MS cloud platform) and Windows NT.
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Actually (as I've said before), his job is optimising VM performance and designing low overhead virtual drivers for Durango (since games run in VMs now with no direct access to hardware)

 

[(((interference)))]

This post of yours is a complete non-sequitur. Nothing about what was said logically leads to what you are asserting. Read the link again. All it is saying there is that they took the same architecture as was originally given to devs and beefed everything up. The point of that sentence wasn't to draw comparisons with the most recent beta kits, but to make the point that the architecture itself hasn't changed...which would be why they'd highlight the first dev kits given to 3rd parties.

Sigh,

The Architecture Design is the same as the one from the Alpha Specifications (February 2012).

What do they mean by 'Alpha Specifications'? Capitalising it and all, suggests it's an actual technical term -maybe one MS is using in documentation somewhere, so by that do they mean alpha kit specifications?
Because if they do then it's wrong to say that the architecture design is the same but beefed up (since the alpha kits are quite different to the vgleak specs).
And if they simply mean 'original specifications' then it's an convoluted way of putting it - i.e. if they really knew what they were talking about and not just fanboys extrapolating off things they've read online and using 'Alpha Specifications' to sound more technical.

Also, what do they mean by claims like these:

Yield Rates of the chip have been moderate at best (Improvements since September 2012)

Yield rates for what chip? the original one or the beefed up one? You'd assume they mean the beefed up one, yet that's clearly false since the chips being produced then were for the beta kits which went out at the end of the year and were 1.2TF.

 

[marcberry]

Per VSP holds their own scalar + trancedental

GCN 1.0 does not have trancedental.
Gipsel Beyond3d also said
"trancedental cost 12cycles."

Also shows 1VGT = 1Per SC = 12VGTs
As it shows 16 VSPs = 1SC

As we already knew the other console
only has 2 VGT.

By the way, when programmers had the PC/PowerMacs powered 360 DEVkits they where under powered. PCs don't do as well as the real hardware. How tells
you guys this shit? The 1 HD7970 in the Devkits now will not be as powerful as the final Durango GPU. That is why games start at the low end and get better over the 5-8 year cycle. Game makers do this also for PR as well, (COD 10, are game has
got better GFX than the COD 9). 360's programmable hardware tessellation unit is just now being used in the new HALO. Ms makes the APIs as well.

You don't need a upgrade to 20CU ( you are still in the old days) each SC is doing right around 4x the work. Durango already is a beast.

 

[ThatGamer]

Actually (as I've said before), his job is optimising VM performance and virtual drivers for Durango (since games run in VMs now with no direct access to hardware)

Do you have a citation? Nonetheless Dave could be doing any number of things but it is exciting that he is working on the Xbox. That is why I also said he has experience with NT.

The main evidence though of the Cloud Rendering and Forteleza is obviously the Yukon leak. It would be great if Dave is a part of it though.

Hmm I haven't heard about the VMs. Games running in a VM would have worse performance. What is the benefit? Do you have a citation to the leak?

 

[marcberry]

http://news.teamxbox.com/xbox/8096/Xbox-360-Development-Kit-Spotted/

360 GPU is = to a HD1800, the ATI X800 graphics card was in the alpha devkit.

SuperDAE had a alpha kit. That GPU is even better now. 3.79 TFLOPS +

64ALUs are in the Yukon leak as well.

 

[Betanumerical]

Per VSP holds their own scalar + trancedental

GCN 1.0 does not have trancedental.
Gipsel Beyond3d also said
"trancedental cost 12cycles."

Also shows 1VGT = 1Per SC = 12VGTs
As it shows 16 VSPs = 1SC

As we already knew the other console
only has 2 VGT.

By the way, when programmers had the PC/PowerMacs powered 360 DEVkits they where under powered. PCs don't do as well as the real hardware. How tells
you guys this shit? The 1 HD7970 in the Devkits now will not be as powerful as the final Durango GPU. That is why games start at the low end and get better over the 5-8 year cycle. Game makers do this also for PR as well, (COD 10, are game has
got better GFX than the COD 9). 360's programmable hardware tessellation unit is just now being used in the new HALO. Ms makes the APIs as well.

You don't need a upgrade to 20CU ( you are still in the old days) each SC is doing right around 4x the work. Durango already is a beast.

A link to the patents you are quoting would be really nice.

It should also be noted that GCN onwards doesn't have transcendental units. So if you really want to argue it does it means that it is a VLIW5/4 (?) last generation HD6000 (which his the same as the HD5000) architecture, which is less efficient then the new HD7000 GCN architecture. Now days just like CPU's (in a similar fashion I suspect as well) the transcendental functions of a video card are microcoded so that every one of the SIMD's can participate in computing them not just specific parts.

You can find information on the HD6000/HD5000 architecture here.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...VNk7gvvtaAtsM5erwDGLw&bvm=bv.46751780,d.dGIIf

each SC is doing 4x the work why doesn't it have 4x the L1 cache. The L1 cache in anything is picked to be a specific size and having 1/4th of it per SIMD is probably not going to end well for efficiency.

(sorry about the link size)

 

[Strange]

Actually (as I've said before), his job is optimising VM performance and designing low overhead virtual drivers for Durango (since games run in VMs now with no direct access to hardware)

I still don't understand why you would want consoles to run VMs for games.

 

[Betanumerical]

http://news.teamxbox.com/xbox/8096/Xbox-360-Development-Kit-Spotted/

360 GPU is = to a HD1800, the ATI X800 graphics card was in the alpha devkit.

SuperDAE had a alpha kit. That GPU is even better now. 3.79 TFLOPS +

64ALUs are in the Yukon leak as well.

Dev kits being more powerful then the actual console is nothing new, after all you want to try represent the performance of a box that does not exist yet using parts that already exist so you may have to over shoot it a little.

This says nothing about the final product.

mistercteam is that you? your using the exact same images and arguments as him :|

http://www.semiaccurate.com/forums/showpost.php?p=183437&postcount=822

 

[marcberry]

nothing. You said VSPs are big and there's a patent about them. Then you cite a patent about redundant silicon that has a diagram with VSP on like the Durango leaks. that can be explained as GCN 1.0 SIMD units that work on scalars. Until you present something that shows the existence of a new SIMD design that incorporates a scalar unit alongside the vector pipes other than a TLA without any literary substantiation, you have presented nothing.

The proof is in the understanding. The counter-argument to yours is solidly backed with coherent reference to the major rumours and leaks. It's logical to favour that interpretation than "some guy said one console is better than the other," especially when a quick consideration of that reference proves it nonsense - that'd mean a mythical VSP would have to have at least 50% more performance than a standard SIMD (to get 1.2 TF up to 1.8 TF to match Orbis), which would mean 50% more ALUs, something scalar units don't provide and aren't useful for.

All that fits together. The idea of VSPs just being GCN SIMD units fits. Even VGLeaks explanation and the AMD patents you linked to do nothing that change the meaning of the VSP unit. Ergo it's for you to find proof that VSPs aren't just GCN 1.0 SIMD units given another name to differentiate them from older architectures.

Cayman VLIW4 = SIMDs > SPs
GCN = CUs > SIMDs > VSPs

As the ALU units in GCN are different to those in Cayman, it makes sense to give them a different name. Until we have some evidence in a patent or technical document or AMD spokesperson or somesuch saying otherwise, all you are offering is a guess based on an interpretation that doesn't fit with the other information, and just repeating yourself with more and more colours won't change that.

Boy i can not wait, only 3 days. What will they say?
1.You did not even know about the VSPs, and
now you say it fits with GCN 1, and you still don't get it.

Just in VGleak's 1SC their are 4SIMDs with 16 VSPs per SC.
Inside each vsp their are 4 16wideSIMDs. MATH time, 4SIMDs x 16 VSPs Array processor = 64SIMDs with 64ALUs (from Yukon docs) and 16 scalars,
and that fits with GCN? Come on!! I am trying to save you here. 3 days left.

each SC is doing 4x the work why doesn't it have 4x the L1 cache. The L1 cache in anything is picked to be a specific size and having 1/4th of it per SIMD is probably not going to end well for efficiency.

That is why i can tell. That was a PC KIT specs, Ram or L1 can be changed at anytime 120 days before Beta kits. wtf.

Gpus are a redundant pieces of silicon, add this more of that, sink, add more. Like 20nm. I ask you why the are their VSPs in 4x pairs under each SIMD?

 

[Betanumerical]

Dev kits being more powerful then the actual console is nothing new, after all you want to try represent the performance of a box that does not exist yet using parts that already exist so you may have to over shoot it a little.

This says nothing about the final product.

mistercteam is that you? your using the exact same images and arguments as him :|

http://www.semiaccurate.com/forums/showpost.php?p=183437&postcount=822

Boy i can not wait, only 3 days. What will they say?
1.You did not even know about the VSPs, and
now you say it fits with GCN 1, and you still don't get it.

Just in VGleak's 1SC their are 4SIMDs with 16 VSPs per SC.
Inside each vsp their are 4 16wideSIMDs. MATH time, 4SIMDs x 16 VSPs Array processor = 64SIMDs with 64ALUs (from Yukon docs) and 16 scalars,
and that fits with GCN? Come on!! I am trying to save you here. 3 days left.



That is why i can tell. That was a PC KIT specs, Ram or L1 can be changed at anytime 120 days before Beta kits. wtf.

Gpus are a redundant pieces of silicon, add this more of that, sink, add more. Like 20nm. I ask you why the are their VSPs in 4x pairs under each SIMD?

You cannot change the L1 specs at any time, changing L1 would require a redesign of the GPU. L1 cannot just be swapped out for more (its also a rather large space hog (cache over all)).

Also why do you keep quoting patents in regards to the HD5000/HD6000 architecture. Do you really think that Durango is using a architecture from 2009?.

Plus mosts of your posts bare a remarkable resemblance to mistercteam's posts on semiaccurate, you two even use the same images. odd.

You really are showing your lack of understanding in regards to hardware design i don't like saying that kind of stuff to people until they really push a ridiculous and incorrect point, take that however you want.

 

[bkilian]

marcberry, dude, you need to start keeping quiet now. You're singlehandedly lowering the SNR of this board significantly. If I tell you, on my honor, that you are completely wrong, will you please stop talking about things you do not understand? You're taking a single name out of context, and ignoring all the portions of the doc that describe how it works.

Please, just stop.

 

[3dilettante]

Also why do you keep quoting patents in regards to the HD5000/HD6000 architecture. Do you really think that Durango is using a architecture from 2009?.

I'm leaning towards thinking that the larger image is for a 2006 architecture, actually.
The way the texture units are split up to service 1/4 of every SIMD is something that R600 and its derivatives had.

 

[Cjail]

@bkilian

SNR for forums, I love this idea.
Finally a proper way to measure the IQ of posts, if you catch my drift.

 

[Boglin]

marcberry, dude, you need to start keeping quiet now. You're singlehandedly lowering the SNR of this board significantly...

Please, just stop.

I have been a long time lurker and don't post often, but marcberry, in my opinion, is really beginning to grate against the typically enjoyable and logical discussions on this site.

 

[Xenio]

Rumors about Infinity's kinect:

One development source told Eurogamer that Kinect 2 will be so powerful it will enable games to lip read, detect when players are angry, and determine in which direction they are facing.

Kinect 2 can track the pitch and volume of player voices and facial characteristics to measure different emotional states.

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2011-11-25-kinect-2-so-accurate-it-can-lip-read

that could change our way to play games

anyway a neoGAFfer that is talk to have connection with many developers, is teasing to not wait for insane spec rumors but that old specs are gone too..
so I think he's saying that some minor changes are there
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=58079960&postcount=15595

just another one on the "specs are changed from vgleaks" train

Software leaks are currently locked down. Sealed tight. (Seems no one has blown the whistle yet)

Hardware: One of these could be real, or none at all.

64MBeSRAM, 2.0+TFLOP GPU, 12GB of RAM

12 GB is the easier change, I think. but the hope is on the gpu thing