News & Rumors: Xbox One (codename Durango)

[Bagel seed]

Nothing is impossible. Curious, is something with that kind of die size mass producible in console worthy amounts? Like 10+ mil per year.

 

[Reiko]

I wonder if MS is kicking themselves knowing HMC stacked memory will be available for retail by the end of the year. eSRAM surely took hefty amount of die space which resulted in less CUs on GPU and all that so they can fit 8GB in there.

I don't think MSFT is kicking themselves at all.

 

[Ruskie]

I don't think MSFT is kicking themselves at all.

Well, if their main card was having double the memory of their competitor, I'm sure they are doing so now. If they didn't care, well, I guess we will have to see results of that strategy.

 

[Bagel seed]

I wonder if MS is kicking themselves knowing HMC stacked memory will be available for retail by the end of the year. eSRAM surely took hefty amount of die space which resulted in less CUs on GPU and all that so they can fit 8GB in there.

HMC truly sounds like perfect fit for console box in 2013. Low power, lots of bandwidth and easily can fit 8GB.

Probably not available in any significant amount. Tail end of 2014 might be more realistic. But overall TSV based stacked products kind of hit some snags I think.

 

[DJ12]

you know that the documents of vgleaks are stolen by dylan "DAE" from microsoft 1,5 years ago. microsoft sent FBI to buste and stop him, he says then that he prefer ps4.

pure hate story. really?
take a look at the twitter account of dae NOW.
he is NOT in jail, and he is doing a tatoo, guess what? the new XBOX logo. on his skin so why he don't hate microsoft no more, just in few days.
and there's more, all the official xbox and live twitter accounts are writing (friendly) on the accoount of dylan, and they are in love in front of the world

there's something wrong in the whole story..
and what if the stolen douments with the specs was a move of microsoft itself and he is an actor?

https://twitter.com/superDaE

Clearly you have no sense of humour, that is blatantly a joke not even by SuperDAE one of his followers suggested he get an xbox tattoo.

Maybe you know it's a joke, but you are that desperate it's easy to gloss over it.

 

[Rangers]

I wonder if MS is kicking themselves knowing HMC stacked memory will be available for retail by the end of the year. eSRAM surely took hefty amount of die space which resulted in less CUs on GPU and all that so they can fit 8GB in there.

Consolation prize still isn't bad, would be a lower BOM.

 

[Wynix]

Those specs seem too good, 2tf gpu from the rumoured 1.2tf seems like way too large of a jump this late in the game.

MS don't really need to up the specs that much, upping GPU to ~1.6tf and doubling the eSRAM would be enough to be competitive, this just seems excessive.

I would love for it to be true but just seems like such a leap from previous specs, too much for me to believe.

 

[Ruskie]

My main problem with Durango is that it sounds like a clusterfuck. I'm not even sure I would prefer it if latest rumor was true. PS4 is simple, powerful and very well rounded. Durango sounds like some kind of budget console that is ultimately less powerful AND more complicated too.

 

[expletive]

From another thread, the VSP is named and diagrammed! It's a vector processor with a scalar unit (3+1). Is this different from a GCN SIMD array's ALU structure?

Shifty, has anyone looked at the patent link dobwal provided?

http://www.google.com/patents/US20100332792

Integrated Vector-Scalar Processor

Embodiments of the present invention are directed to the design of improved vector processing units. For example, in one embodiment, a vector engine for a GPU is configured to process data such as pixel data in a novel manner. The vector engine, in the said embodiment, includes four vector element processing units. The novel manner in which the pixel data is made available to the individual vector element processing units, and the manner in which the vector elements are processed in the vector processing unit can result in substantial reductions in processor size and power consumption. It can also result in substantial gains in processing efficiency.

For example, in a pixel shader, X, Y, Z, and W can correspond to pixel elements such as the color components R, B, G and alpha or opacity component A. In an embodiment of the present invention, where a GPU comprises one or more shaders, the X, Y, Z, and W elements of successive vectors of pixel data are input to separate vector element processing units within a shader. In the following description, the term “vector element,” “pixel element,” or simply “element,” refers to one data component of a vector, such as, one of X, Y, Z, or W data components of a vector. Routing of pixel elements to the separate vector element processing units within a shader can be staggered such that intermediate or final processing results of a pixel element can be forwarded from a first vector element processing unit to a second vector element processing unit where another pixel element is being processed. This approach, when compared to the conventional approach of processing each vector corresponding to an individual pixel in a separate vector processing unit, can result in substantially reduced processing logic and/or routing infrastructure in the processing system. For example, according to a conventional approach, each vector processing unit is required to include logic necessary to process all four components of a pixel. The four components of a pixel can represent different aspects and hence require different processing logic. In embodiments of the present invention, each vector element processing unit can be optimized for the processing of a subset of the elements of the vectors to be processed. Embodiments of the present invention, also facilitate superscalar processing and integrated vector-scalar processing by, for example, enabling the multiplexing of one or more constants or scalar values to be processed in any of the vector element processing units.

Is this just standard GCN behavior or something different? Patent was granted in Dec of 2010.

 

[Grall]

Why are people foolishly assuming the entire system is on an SoC?

Foolishly? Maybe it's because there's no infos or logical reasons suggesting otherwise?

If you break off the GPU, and break off the on-die memory, then there isn't much left of the durango die; you'd want the uncore/mem controllers to stay with the GPU for power/logistical reasons, display planes stuff, move engines, video codecs - all of that would stay with the GPU. CPU cores are tiny, why on earth would those warrant their own chip? Makes zero sense.

 

[(((interference)))]

I think those pastebin specs are fake, among other things they say:

The Architecture Design is the same as the one from the Alpha Specifications (February 2012).

What do they mean by alpha specifications? Alpha kit specifications? Because that's definitely not similar to what they have (their specs are similar to the beta kit specs x 1.5)

So yeah, not likely, but hey if we're lucky, we'll get a clock increase - that's about all that's probable to happen without a long and expensive delay.

It's important to remember in all of this, that MS started out to make a machine with 6-8x the power of 360 (as mentioned in the Yukon leak). Durango definitely is this (if you take into account the relative efficiencies of the GCN and Xenos architectures).

Also, as bkilian himself mentioned, MS were expecting Sony to have a more powerful machine - and planned on competing in other ways besides pure specs.

And I've heard that the second most complained about thing by devs last year was the low GPU FLOPS; and despite this MS didn't increase the clocks for the beta kits and stuck to their guns. So it's not like they haven't been pressured to improve their specs before the PS4 reveal.

Oh and one of their goals when designing the system and memory architecture was definitely 'cheap' or more accurately, a cost-effective, efficient design (Nintendo has cheap designs) hence the DDR3+ESRAM.

And there have been some rumours from one of the GAF 'insiders' on the power supply stuff (Rangers will know) take it with a grain of salt but the 'entire system draws at least 150W' with a possible extrapolation being that the APU uses 100W. The PSU itself is apparently rated at 220W, higher than the 203W of the original 360's (it was also suggested that the new PSU was less efficient than the 360s - if that even makes sense, you'd think efficiency would improve over time but I dunno, maybe it isn't as bulky and noisily fan cooled like the 360's was - and so is also less efficient).

So yeah, I don't know the veracity of that last paragraph or even if it makes sense, but I'm sure someone can tell us if its plausible or not.

 

[Bagel seed]

And I should tell you guys that apparently the second most complained about thing by devs last year was the low GPU FLOPS but despite this MS didn't increase the clocks for the beta kits and stuck to their guns. So it's not like they haven't been pressured to improve their specs before the PS4 reveal.

And what was the first most complained about thing? Available memory?

This unrelenting hope for a bump in power is shortsighted. They can sell this underpowered box at a huge profit in that first 2 to 3 years, and then you'll get your Infinity+1 double or triple SoC box after.

 

[(((interference)))]

The system reservation, I think I mentioned it before

And yeah, doing a more powerful Infinity+1 box a few years down the track will be trivial now as the games don't run directly on the hardware, 'forward compat' will be easy to do.

 

[Bagel seed]

So multiplat devs must be trying to push above 5gb already then. Interesting.

 

[Cjail]

The system reservation, I think I mentioned it before

And yeah, doing a more powerful Infinity+1 box a few years down the track will be trivial now as the games don't run directly on the hardware, 'forward compat' will be easy to do.

I remember you replayed to me and said that that developers have been very vocal about the memory accessible to games begin "only" 5GB.

 

[Cyan]

Ok here's the latest pastebin being passed around GAF. Tar and feather me if you must. At least I dont see anything glaringly impossible about it

http://pastebin.com/sckq0WNF





probably the biggest redish (pink?) flags if any are:

185 watts seems a little low for that

"sources" saying durango 12 cu specs were accurate as of just a few months ago, it conflicts with them.

i also dont see anything that couldn't have been written by a well informed member of neogaf or b3d.

to quote alstrong, *shrug*

It seems to sound somewhat reasonable, but I think it is fake 'cos it is in Pastebin. Some of the pastebin specs rumours are so fun, though.

This is my favourite -the MS board names are allegedly forumer's names-. I have to admit, I cried (out of laughter).

1. 1. Xbox 720 ---> Retail name Xbox Platinum
   2. Visa Platinum required to sign in your Live account
   3. New Live service name: Insert Coin
   4. Hardware, confidential: Durango is just The Xbox 360 on a new case, Kinect required
   5. There are changes on MS Board
   6. New CEO Metodologic
   7. New Entertaiment Division Director Link
   8. New PR manager Catxo

Additionally, as a fellow forumer said before, SuperDAE and Xbox are tweeting each other.

 

[Rangers]

Also, as bkilian himself mentioned, MS were expecting Sony to have a more powerful machine - and planned on competing in other ways besides pure specs.

But, I doubt they expected Sony to match on 8GB. They had to know that was an aggressive target. But they likely expected, 2-3 years ago,. PS4 to come in at 4 or even 2GB. So that doesn't jive with your narrative (although in the main I can believe it)

And I've heard that the second most complained about thing by devs last year was the low GPU FLOPS; and despite this MS didn't increase the clocks for the beta kits and stuck to their guns. So it's not like they haven't been pressured to improve their specs before the PS4 reveal.

But, the 8GB move from Sony would have just ratcheted pressure to another level, and my theory is pubs may have started pressuring too IE, "bring your box up closer to PS4 or else".

Ahh well, we all have our dug in positions. It's near now.

There's a few things that are evidence about the rumored big upgrade:

-Greenberg's smiley face on twitter. It really hinted at major changes.

-Dae talking about old specs on Durango. It would make sense if this comes to pass.

-The thread tags, stupid as it is. They say 12GB and 384 bit, and now that's the prevailing rumor? Sure, the rumors could have followed the tags not vice versa, but still.

Anyways, the only thing that wont make me happy is no upgrade. If we even get 10% better clock, or some more RAM, I'm happy. Actually just 10% more clock might not make me happy, but anything above that will. And more RAM definitely will.

Plus we now have imo believable evidence PS4 reserves 3Gb and 2 cores as well. That will put them on more even footing anyway (although conversely, could make MS feel less pressured to upgrade)

So multiplat devs must be trying to push above 5gb already then. Interesting.

Yes, I constantly bring that up to people who say "well Durango bandwidth is too slow to use more memory anyway, even if they upgrade it wont matter"

We dont know where the usable RAM on Durango cutoff is, but we do know it's more than 5GB.

 

[(((interference)))]

There's also the 2 CPU cores reserved, they could have been complaining about that too.

Plus, MS has about a GB reserved for future use (only 2GB is actually being used by the system/apps at the moment) so maybe they were unhappy about that and wanted MS to release it back to them.

What's ironic is, the system originally had only 4GB, it was increased to 8GB in late 2011, just before the first third party disclosures - so the devs should instead count their blessings!
I mean even we were mostly expecting 2GB consoles, and were hoping that we'd luck out with 4GB instead.

So really it's all a matter of perspective...be thankful we're at least getting better than the HD6670 IGN was claiming!

 

[Rangers]

There's also the 2 CPU cores reserved, they could have been complaining about that too.

Plus, MS has about a GB reserved for future use (only 2GB is actually being used by the system/apps at the moment) so maybe they were unhappy about that and wanted MS to release it back to them.

What's ironic is, the system originally had only 4GB, it was increased to 8GB in late 2011, just before the first third party disclosures - so the devs should instead count their blessings! I mean even we were mostly expecting 2GB consoles, and were hoping that we'd luck out with 4GB instead.

I considered the CPU cores, but you cant expect less than one, and I just doubt they were that concerned to quibble over one remaining core in question, to make it the #1 concern. At least it was cores+RAM.

That's interesting about 8GB. And yeah, I mention the days everybody was saying more than 2GB was a pipe dream frequently

RAM is the one spec area next gen easily exceeded expectations in both consoles, for some reason.

 

[bkilian]

Ok here's the latest pastebin being passed around GAF. Tar and feather me if you must. At least I dont see anything glaringly impossible about it

http://pastebin.com/sckq0WNF





probably the biggest redish (pink?) flags if any are:

185 watts seems a little low for that

"sources" saying durango 12 cu specs were accurate as of just a few months ago, it conflicts with them.

i also dont see anything that couldn't have been written by a well informed member of neogaf or b3d.

to quote alstrong, *shrug*

This I could believe. Not that I do, but it is at least plausible.