New Mark Rein interview

Inane_Dork said:
I'm simply explaining why it's not necessarily a good thing to have final dev kits months in advance. The earlier you can make them, the less powerful they are (as a rule). The X360 had issues with getting final SDKs into developers' hands, but on the other hand, the system is comparing pretty comparably to a much newer system (at running games, not other tasks).

Well, it depends on what "pretty comparably" means. If we break down the components, though, it could neither have had a BD drive or a (3.2Ghz) Cell processor when it launched for example. These are more recent components than its launch could afford, and these are components that barely were available at E3 (if they were at all) when you say that arguably the system wasn't 'cutting edge' then.

Ultimately I think Sony are pretty comfortable about the system and where it stands, and I think they'll take their 'extra' x months of software development on better hardware rather than trading time for further changes. Microsoft were very rushed indeed in this process, and I don't think it's a path Sony felt particularly attracted to. (And I don't think it's entirely clear if MS's relative lateness with the hardware was tied to relative "cutting-edge-ness" or other issues - IIRC, the hardware WAS due earlier to developers, but there were unexpected problems in the summer of 05 with certain components. Lateness can be a result of a number of factors.).
 
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Inane_Dork said:
I'm simply explaining why it's not necessarily a good thing to have final dev kits months in advance. The earlier you can make them, the less powerful they are (as a rule). The X360 had issues with getting final SDKs into developers' hands, but on the other hand, the system is comparing pretty comparably to a much newer system (at running games, not other tasks).

That's not a good generalization. In the case of the 360 i think it was more because of the rushed launch which prevented MS from delivering devkits earlier (production issues). If they had been able to delivere them earlier, they wouldn't be weaker because of that, it's the same hardware after all which was designed long before the release of a devkit in mind.
 
How is PS3 "newer...?" Just because they recently built it? everything about it was basically known a year+ ago... the components are the same relative tech age as x360...
 
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blakjedi said:
How is PS3 "newer...?" Just because they recently built it? everything about it was basically known a year+ ago...

I can talk about where a computers might be in a year's time. Doesn't make it today's technology :)

We knew about PS3 specs a year + ago, but it's not until recently that it was actually realised.
 
Titanio said:
(And I don't think it's entirely clear if MS's relative lateness with the hardware was tied to relative "cutting-edge-ness" or other issues - IIRC, the hardware WAS due earlier to developers, but there were unexpected problems in the summer of 05 with certain components).
Fair enough. I did not mean there was a necessary connection there.
 
Laa-Yosh said:
Should I start to dig up the old PR quotes thread? They outright claimed that Killzone and Motorstorm videos were 'gameplay'...

I dont remember any Sony PR "outright claiming" anything like that. The most common quote I recall battered around by the fanbois last year was Jack Tretton on G4 saying "it's definitely real". Only the rest of his quote was conveniently looked over... "That's something Ted wanted to make sure everyone understood, that's real gameplay" - referring to Ted Price of Insomniac and their I8 footage.

Here's the video...http://media.ps3.ign.com/media/748/748475/vids_1.html

Not to defend the PR tools, they're always purposely ambigious and deceiving with this crap. Tretton certainly was there to a degree. But no, they didnt "outright claim" anything afaik. And Sony hardly has a patent on CG bullshots and slippery PR bullshit.

Blast from the past...
"Well, you know what, with Xbox 360, the age of the jaggies is over"-Peter Moore
 
You've been asking for it, now please read.

http://www.beyond3d.com/forum/showthread.php?t=20011

The fires of speculation were fueled further by the ambiguous comments of Jan-Bart Van Beek, Game Director of the PS3 Killzone at Guerrilla Games, to the official PlayStation UK site."It's basically a representation of the look and feel of the game we're trying to make," he said. Then a post on the Eurogamer forums laid out a tantalizing conspiracy--that Axis Animation, the same Scottish computer animation company that made a cinematic to the first Killzone, had been working on the E3 demo for months as straight-up CG. So how does Sony respond to the allegations? Far from being evasive, they met them head-on. "Yes, it is real time," a rep told GameSpot.
 
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Laa-Yosh said:
We both remember that it wasn't like that.

Should I start to dig up the old PR quotes thread? They outright claimed that Killzone and Motorstorm videos were 'gameplay'...
There were lots of mixed stories and differing PR quotes. Phil Harrison went on record as saying there was 'rendered to spec' in there, for example. But I was talking specifically about how those movies were introduced, before the web ever started churning those movies into debates. I can't find a movie of the E3 05 keynote so maybe I'm remembering it wrong, but IIRC after the tech demos, before the games were shown, Harrison said something along the lines of

"So what does this mean for PS3 games? We asked our development partners to create something to show what they hope to be achieving on PS3 in their games."

That's the gist as I recall it. Certainly there wasn't a clear 'this is what devs are currently producing on PS3' message but instead a distinct 'these are the targets of what these devs expect to get.' From those targets the internet erupted with balanced, calm and rational debate about whether and how much these movies were in-engine or pure CGI renders, and the media all took it in turns to grill various parties to ask whether it was 'realtime' or not. At the original release, Sony made no such claims to being realtime or in-engine. They were introduced as what the devs expected to achieve with PS3. I think he used the term visualisation, or something similar.
 
One of the sony execs directly claimed motorstorm was ingame, Killzone they refused to answer, though the video itself is clearly a faked ingame camera, it is clearly designed to look like an actual game being played, which is quite sleazy imo. Most cinematics are clearly cinematics, whereas this one was trying to fool people.

From those targets the internet erupted with balanced, calm and rational debate about whether and how much these movies were in-engine or pure CGI renders,

I guess you forgot the 6 months of 'xbox 1.5' crap, and the editorials about how PS3 had more stuff that was 'truly' next gen. The 360 got bashed, big time, by almost everyone. To characterize the post E3 05 coverage as 'balanced, calm and rational debate' makes me laugh!
 
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Laa-Yosh said:
You've been asking for it, now please read.
snip

If an unnamed, anonymous rep apparently telling gamespot "Yep, thats realtime" (without any attributed context for that matter) is what you consider damning evidence that Sony paraded around their PR claiming mock CG was gameplay... well ok, if that suits you. As Shifty pointed out SCE's main figurehead in Harrison pretty much had the company line.

My point was there isnt much disparity in the PR and marketing games that have been played up to this point, so I'll leave it at that.

One of the sony execs directly claimed motorstorm was ingame

Care to source the quote on that one scooby? I honestly dont recall that, and keep in mind quotes have been misconstrued in the past (as I demonstrated).

though the video itself is clearly a faked ingame camera, it is clearly designed to look like an actual game being played, which is quite sleazy imo.

Marketing is generally sleazy. Thats why it works. ;) CoD 2 360 ads anyone?
 
scooby_dooby said:
I guess you forgot the 6 months of 'xbox 1.5' crap, and the editorials about how PS3 had more stuff that was 'truly' next gen. The 360 got bashed, big time, by almost everyone. To characterize the post E3 05 coverage as 'balanced, calm and rational debate' makes me laugh!

Could not agree more everyone and their mother was all over the 360 hardware because of the killzone trailer. The only people who were not on MS case were some of the people here who knew these were CGI targets.

I will never forget G4 TV's E3 coverage that year they ripped on MS then they would rip on them some more then after that they would praise the killzone trailer and kiss sony's ass.
 
Laa-Yosh said:
The target render we're comparing it to is also viewed as a still image on a monitor, so the circumstances are the same. It is IMHO fair to make a judgement on a simple comparision - all that's lost from the ingame image is also lost from the CG video.
Comparing screenshots of a game during its production against itself is fine, comparing it against other released and unreleased titles is not (or perhaps a tad pointless).
 
I'm really shocked peopel are actually saying "they don't remember it" or something to that extent. just wow.
 
liverkick said:
Care to source the quote on that one scooby? I honestly dont recall that, and keep in mind quotes have been misconstrued in the past (as I demonstrated).

I had it a little wrong, he is actually referring to all the demo's:

Around 4 minutes in:
http://media.ps3.ign.com/media/748/748475/vids_1.html

G4: [speaking about killzone and trailer in general] Was some of the stuff real, was it CGI? it looked so good.

Sony VP Jack Tretton @ E3 2005 said:
"It's definately real, I guess we're pretty good at keeping secrets because the dev kits are out there. The dev kits are very intuitive, and people have done some incredible things. That is something we wanted to make sure everyone understood, that is real gampley everybody is seeing out there."
 
Sony has no one to blame on the PR mess--they were not misrepresented. They selected footage that represented gameplay, they refused to answer questions about realtime at E3 instead emphasizing stuff was "PS3 spec" and "game assets" and lead interviewers that "they would play" what they saw, and a week later stating it was realtime when leaks began indicating it was not realtime. They fanned the flames themselves and refused to say, "This is all CGI" and instead emphasized it will look like this on the PS3. That is how it was, and here is some proof.


From the Next Gen PR thread here at B3D: When Morgan Webb of G4TV [video] asked Phil Harrison if the KZ footage was realtime he responded that "all game engine or done to spec" and was only "scratching the surface" of the PS3. When pressed again about whether it was realtime whether "I'll be playing that in my living room" he said "Absolutely". She asked repeated times about the realtime and his answers were, "Yes, it is to spec" "So I will play that" "Absolutely".

GameSpot asked for clarification a week later to a Sony rep and Sony said KZ was realtime.

In an IGN interview the KZ developers, after noting they barely got KZ ready for E3 2006, detailed how they were trying to do more than just the beautiful graphics. When asked "Is the Killzone sequence a fair example of what people can expect from realtime gameplay on the Playstation 3" they answered, "Yeah, it's basically a representation of the look and feel of the game we're trying to make". IGN then specifically notes that every time if they ask if it is realtime they skirt the issue and focus on "this is what you can expect" and "this is our vision" while refusing to answer the question, only to emphasize what they saw.

Sony said everything was done to the PS3 spec and were using in game assets; that the videos would represent the gameplay (less some artistic license in "replay mode"), but empahsized again everything was done to the PS3 spec.

There were a lot of other little quips and interviews as well, but the emphasis was always on the PS3 could do this and the videos, like KZ, were specifically designed to look like gameplay.

And even after people came forward as saying it was prerendered (Laa-Yosh noted this within 24 hours) there were a number of posters on this forum who fought ferociously that it was in fact realtime. Laa-Yosh took a TON of flaming. But it is now well known and established KZ was prerendered, and yet he has received very few apologies. Further, by summer 2005 a number of Xbox 360 games were being accused of being prerendered (like NBA2K6), contrary to media and developer claims, as a form of trollish backlash.

This was one of the prime reasons I left B3D for 6 months. The controlled fan trolling, flaming, misinformation, etc got in the way of quality industry discussion and technical discussions. But there is no question that Sony intended to have people believe those were PS3 games--in their interviews after talking about how great the 'games' looked they talked about how powerful Cell and RSX were and enabled them to do this etc.

And this issue will never die because there are people who honestly believe E3 2005 Motorstorm looks like E3 2006 Motorstorm, but will turn around and slam games on another platform--and vice versa. This is the worse sort of viral PR and it is absolutely effective. (Note: Sony was not the only one with CGI posing as gameplay, e.g. Ubi's Ghost Recon... E3 2005 was the coming out party for CGI pretending to be gameplay)

EDIT: Thanks Scoob, I could not find that one! Anyhow, KZ was the biggest game at E3 2005. It says a lot when it is a complete no-show in 2006 and instead is replaced with Genji and 10 minutes of GT HD. Likewise Motorstorm happened to miss the Sony press event as well but made it to the show floor.
 
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Anyone taking G4TV seriously (or even watches it) are on crack. Or some other synthetic compound churned out in a second year lab.

The merger of Tech TV and G4 was the downfall of all credibility for the station, the purging of the old personalities just confirmed it. It survives on nothing but HYPE just to make ratings. Their reviews are a joke and the programming is bland.

They are pretty much paid to hype up stupid stuff, even the CGI movies of E3'05.
 
Acert93 said:
Sony has no one to blame on the PR mess
Of course people tend to forget that the "PR mess" affects us dizzy bitches hanging on every quote before systems launch, and amount to nowhere near a hill of beans in the little run, let alone the long run. ;)

Hell, even WE don't hang on "teraflops" comments any more, even though it was all that was talked about for two straight years prior to E3 '05. :p
 
cthellis42 said:
Of course people tend to forget that the "PR mess" affects us dizzy bitches hanging on every quote before systems launch, and amount to nowhere near a hill of beans in the little run, let alone the long run. ;)

They own use and use us for their own evil motives :devilish: We are such the fools!

You know the sad part? Next-Next-Gen PR starts in about 3 years.

Hell, even WE don't hang on "teraflops" comments any more, even though it was all that was talked about for two straight years prior to E3 '05. :p

Well, you still see the odd comment about it. Ironically much of the "teraflops" discussion was when there was very little relevant information about the systems at the time. Before E3 2005 we did not even know how many Cell processors the PS3 would have. Thankfully, over time, the discussion does shift toward the games. In 2008 we will begin seeing a lot of software from the ground up and it will be the games, and their design goals that are more interesting. Until then...
 
Qroach said:
I'm really shocked peopel are actually saying "they don't remember it" or something to that extent. just wow.

selective memory ;)


yea... come on.... Sony played it up for all it's worth and was blowing smoke up our arses... and now they are seeing a bit of backlash as the reality is that Next Gen started in Nov '05.
 
Acert93 said:
They own use and use us for their own evil motives :devilish: We are such the fools!

You know the sad part? Next-Next-Gen PR starts in about 3 years.
Ha! You think it'll take three years for it to start??! :devilish:
 
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