National Id card

[epicstruggle]

Id like someone to convince me that a national id card is a bad idea. Right now im all for a standard national id card issued to everyone above a certain age (say 16) to replace all other cards (drivers licence, social security card, green card,...). Card would include finger print, picture id, and maybe some other items to correctly identify you.

later,
epic

 

[pax]

Its abherently expensive. Canada alone saw costs ranging from 1-1.5 billion$ for the scheme. And if its anything like the gun registry costs will increase geometrically over and above estimates which were originally as low as 7 milion now have topped a billion.

 

[London Geezer]

But is the relatively high cost going to be enough to counter the benefit of having everyone ID'ed? In the end, i think the benefits outweight the defects. In Italy it is compulsory to have an ID and pretty much everyone has it with them at any one time. It can't be a bad thing, apart from cost.
(waiting for someone to come up with "i want my privacy" kind of bullshit)

 

[notAFanB]

don't see what the problem is (tho are the brits still vermently opposed to this scheme?).

cost can't be the issue, just unify everything and charge the public over the long term (phase the damn thing in over a period of years), if you are worried about security just limit it's usefulness tothe items it's supposed to be replacing *shrugs*

 

[London Geezer]

don't see what the problem is (tho are the brits still vermently opposed to this scheme?).

cost can't be the issue, just unify everything and charge the public over the long term (phase the damn thing in over a period of years), if you are worried about security just limit it's usefulness tothe items it's supposed to be replacing *shrugs*

Yes, for some reason, there is a lot of controversy here in Britain, don't really get why... I mean if one can't afford it, the Govt will pay for it (that is, people on benefit and all)... Otherwise, 40 quid for a single ID that lasts 10 years is NOTHING.
The benefits FAR outweight the rest.

 

[RussSchultz]

In the US, we still cling to our federal-ity. The SSN isn't for identification, other than keeping track of your national "pension". Laws governing driving are dictated by the state, not the federal government. The big argument amongst libertarians would be that consolidating all these into one would result in the government being able to track you more easily.

 

[London Geezer]

In the US, we still cling to our federal-ity. The SSN isn't for identification, other than keeping track of your national "pension". Laws governing driving are dictated by the state, not the federal government. The big argument amongst libertarians would be that consolidating all these into one would result in the government being able to track you more easily.

And that's a good thing!! I mean if the Govt is tracking u down, it's because u've done something illegal, which in turn means crime (any kind of crime) rate will be reduced by a visible amount, or at least the conviction rate will be increased.

If one has nothing to hide, then where is the problem?

 

[notAFanB]

The big argument amongst libertarians would be that consolidating all these into one would result in the government being able to track you more easily.

how? more so than they can already do (in some form of other) with existing forms of ID?

I am actually why ppls believe that this would stop any government intent on collecting data on it's citizens (especially in this information age).

If one has nothing to hide, then where is the problem?

it's a question of trust and potential for abuse really. on the flip side look at iraq.

 

[RussSchultz]

And that's a good thing!! I mean if the Govt is tracking u down, it's because u've done something illegal, which in turn means crime (any kind of crime) rate will be reduced by a visible amount, or at least the conviction rate will be increased.

If one has nothing to hide, then where is the problem?

In a perfect world, I agree.

In the case where the world has gone crazy and the government starts rounding up jews to burn, I'd rather not have them know exactly where they are at all times, what car they drive, what they look like, all in one nice little database.

Same reason we in America tend to like the right to own guns--the government isn't always your benevolent nanny.

 

[London Geezer]

And that's a good thing!! I mean if the Govt is tracking u down, it's because u've done something illegal, which in turn means crime (any kind of crime) rate will be reduced by a visible amount, or at least the conviction rate will be increased.

If one has nothing to hide, then where is the problem?

In a perfect world, I agree.

In the case where the world has gone crazy and the government starts rounding up jews to burn, I'd rather not have them know exactly where they are at all times, what car they drive, what they look like, all in one nice little database.

Same reason we in America tend to like the right to own guns--the government isn't always your benevolent nanny.

Well yeah the only way this can become a bad thing is in the case the Government becomes our "enemy", but i think we shouldn't worry about that too much, here in the UK and in the US, just like any other civilised country that is not ruled by a tyrant or that has a good track record for Human Rights, among other things.
I wouldn't want to wear an ID like that if i were a, don't know, Chinese national, living in China... For us "westeners" it can only be a good thing IMO.

 

[Mariner]

Although I can see the viewpoint of having ID cards, I'm of the opinion that I was born in this country and have lived here for over 30 years without needing an ID, so why should I have to carry one with me now?

Say I decide to go to the beach just wearing shorts without any pockets in them. Am I still obliged to carry an ID card with me? If so, do I have to stick it down my kecks or something similar?!?

If they wanted to replace my driving license with a combined license/ID, I wouldn't have too many problems with this as my license is kept in a draw at home most of the time. The only time I actually carry it with me is when I'm driving on holiday.

In other words: compulsory ID, not keen, but optional would be OK.

 

[London Geezer]

Although I can see the viewpoint of having ID cards, I'm of the opinion that I was born in this country and have lived here for over 30 years without needing an ID, so why should I have to carry one with me now?

Say I decide to go to the beach just wearing shorts without any pockets in them. Am I still obliged to carry an ID card with me? If so, do I have to stick it down my kecks or something similar?!?

If they wanted to replace my driving license with a combined license/ID, I wouldn't have too many problems with this as my license is kept in a draw at home most of the time. The only time I actually carry it with me is when I'm driving on holiday.

In other words: compulsory ID, not keen, but optional would be OK.

Well, up until 4 years ago (when i last checked), in Italy you SHOULD have it with u at all times, but you are not required to have it. If you are stopped on the street for no reason without having done anything wrong, then it's ok, but if you committ an offence the police (or whoever responsible) would just take u to the police station then get ur ID one way or another (escorting u home for example). While driving, u MUST have it with you. They're pretty liberal otherwise. But i could be wrong...

 

[notAFanB]

Well yeah the only way this can become a bad thing is in the case the Government becomes our "enemy", but i think we shouldn't worry about that too much, here in the UK and in the US, just like any other civilised country that is not ruled by a tyrant or that has a good track record for Human Rights, among other things.

I disagree, this has very little to do with whether the Gov is the 'enemy' or not. the prevading fear is that should they deem it neccessary your actions and activities can be raided without a thought (for the you own benefit of course ).

I wouldn't want to wear an ID like that if i were a, don't know, Chinese national, living in China... For us "westeners" it can only be a good thing IMO.

for China I doubt it would be of any particular consequence I'm afraid.

 

[Bouncing Zabaglione Bros.]

And that's a good thing!! I mean if the Govt is tracking u down, it's because u've done something illegal, which in turn means crime (any kind of crime) rate will be reduced by a visible amount, or at least the conviction rate will be increased.

If one has nothing to hide, then where is the problem?

So it's okay that the government is implementing speed cameras that track you via your numberplate over stretches of motorway? After all, if you're not speeding, it's not a problem, right?

What happens when the government decides to raise even more revenue from the driver (who is already taxed far more than any other group) by billing everyone that drives along motorways for every given mile? After all, if you don't use the motorways, you shouldn't have to pay for them, right? How far would it be from tracking every car and you being taxed for every mile you drive on any type of road?

Any before you think I'm scaremongering, these kind of projects have already been examined and could be implemented as soon as the technology and political climate allows.

The point I'm trying to make is that Nat-ID is the first step in labelling eveyone. After that, it's much easier to track everyone, and that just goes against the grain. On top of this the scheme will be very expensive with taxpayers paying for their own ID, as well as the IDs of any immigrants for free.

If you want to see more examples of what could be done with a system for identifying individuals, look up the recent articles on RFID tags - a national ID system can (and sooner or later will) be used in the same way as the technology advances.

 

[London Geezer]

And that's a good thing!! I mean if the Govt is tracking u down, it's because u've done something illegal, which in turn means crime (any kind of crime) rate will be reduced by a visible amount, or at least the conviction rate will be increased.

If one has nothing to hide, then where is the problem?

So it's okay that the government is implementing speed cameras that track you via your numberplate over stretches of motorway? After all, if you're not speeding, it's not a problem, right?

What happens when the government decides to raise even more revenue from the driver (who is already taxed far more than any other group) by billing everyone that drives along motorways for every given mile? After all, if you don't use the motorways, you shouldn't have to pay for them, right? How far would it be from tracking every car and you being taxed for every mile you drive on any type of road?

Any before you think I'm scaremongering, these kind of projects have already been examined and could be implemented as soon as the technology and political climate allows.

The point I'm trying to make is that Nat-ID is the first step in labelling eveyone. After that, it's much easier to track everyone, and that just goes against the grain. On top of this the scheme will be very expensive with taxpayers paying for their own ID, as well as the IDs of any immigrants for free.

If you want to see more examples of what could be done with a system for identifying individuals, look up the recent articles on RFID tags - a national ID system can (and sooner or later will) be used in the same way as the technology advances.

But that is not the problem of the ID system, it's the problem of the Goverment wanting to charge you for every mile you drive. I Have heard about this too, and the unified ID system has nothing really to do with it... If they want to charge you for every mile you drive, they WILL do it, with or without the ID.
I think the 2 things are on 2 different planes of existance...

 

[Clashman]

Well yeah the only way this can become a bad thing is in the case the Government becomes our "enemy", but i think we shouldn't worry about that too much, here in the UK and in the US, just like any other civilised country that is not ruled by a tyrant or that has a good track record for Human Rights, among other things.
I wouldn't want to wear an ID like that if i were a, don't know, Chinese national, living in China... For us "westeners" it can only be a good thing IMO.

Disagree. People who think that "Democracy", (and I'm using the term loosely here), is some kind of catch-all protection against tyrrany and authoritarianism have a couple of screws loose. Chile had an excellent track record of democracy spanning decades prior to the coup Pinochet executed in the 70's. Similarly, Germany was once known as the Weimar Republic before Hitler came to power. Democracy has been defeated and overthrown in Spain, Guatemala, Iran, etc, etc, etc. Both the U.S. and Britain, (and the rest of the "Western" world) have come close to reverting to authoritarianism or fascism at numerous points during their lifetimes. And if that were to happen with something like this in place, I think it would be bad news.

 

[London Geezer]

Well yeah the only way this can become a bad thing is in the case the Government becomes our "enemy", but i think we shouldn't worry about that too much, here in the UK and in the US, just like any other civilised country that is not ruled by a tyrant or that has a good track record for Human Rights, among other things.
I wouldn't want to wear an ID like that if i were a, don't know, Chinese national, living in China... For us "westeners" it can only be a good thing IMO.

Disagree. People who think that "Democracy", (and I'm using the term loosely here), is some kind of catch-all protection against tyrrany and authoritarianism have a couple of screws loose. Chile had an excellent track record of democracy spanning decades prior to the coup Pinochet executed in the 70's. Similarly, Germany was once known as the Weimar Republic before Hitler came to power. Democracy has been defeated and overthrown in Spain, Guatemala, Iran, etc, etc, etc. Both the U.S. and Britain, (and the rest of the "Western" world) have come close to reverting to authoritarianism or fascism at numerous points during their lifetimes. And if that were to happen with something like this in place, I think it would be bad news.

Yeah i guess it all comes down on how much one trusts his/her government. On how optimistic one is.

 

[davefb]

*and* the 'fact' that the id-card system that the UK is proposing will cost a lot of money and not achieve what people require..... IE you'll still be able to get fakes , or get real cards but with false information...

be a nice few billion for EDS though.

-dave-

apparently the 'day of the jackal' loophole is *still* open , why ? well i heard some civil servant on the radio say "because we only issue about 0.01% false passports"... so assuming 1million a year, thats 100 false passports.. nice....

 

[Clashman]

Can you really blame me for being skeptical? Look at who the U.S. has had as presidents the past 20 or so years: Reagan, Bush, Clinton, and now lil Bush. Not exactly the kinds of people I feel particulary warm to throwing my trust to.

 

[Bouncing Zabaglione Bros.]

But that is not the problem of the ID system, it's the problem of the Goverment wanting to charge you for every mile you drive. I Have heard about this too, and the unified ID system has nothing really to do with it... If they want to charge you for every mile you drive, they WILL do it, with or without the ID.
I think the 2 things are on 2 different planes of existance...

Did you read the RFID stuff? Being able to tag people will be the first step to lots of thing you won't like. This isn't just about carrying around a little card, this is about having all the info on all those cards collated and available for searching in a computer database that one day will know where you and that card are at all times. When that card gets merged into electronic money systems (like Mondex), all your spending can be tracked. How long do you think it will take for govenments to realise they can make money selling all this demographic data? How long before those systems become privatised and sold off to the highest bidder in the private sector?

And these cards won't make things any more secure. The criminals will simply find a new way of duplicating these new, "secure" IDs, just as they have with driving licences, credit cards, cash, etc.

Edit: If you think Nat-ID is a good idea for the reasons you gave above, wouldn't it also be a good idea to have a national database of everyone's genetic ID? After all, if you have "nothing to fear", why not keep a record of everyone's genetic codes on a giant database? If not, why not?