National Id card

[London Geezer]

I don't think the government is to blame for it, rather the other way round, the way the government acts represents the way the people think anyway.

Well, if it really is *unconstitutional* not take guns away from the people (which in itself is already pathetic enough), what's stopping the govt to just change the freaking constitution if they know it can lower the otherworldly high death rate???

 

[Barnabas]

Do they know that. The 11000 figure comes from Bowling for Columbine i think but i don't know how this figure was calculated. Is it the number of people shot by cicilians by accident, is it people shot by civillians by accident and on purpose, does it include people shot by the police and the army, etc? Maybe taking away the guns from ordinary people wouldn't make that much of a difference.

 

[London Geezer]

Do they know that. The 11000 figure comes from Bowling for Columbine i think but i don't know how this figure was calculated. Is it the number of people shot by cicilians by accident, is it people shot by civillians by accident and on purpose, does it include people shot by the police and the army, etc? Maybe taking away the guns from ordinary people wouldn't make that much of a difference.

Well, still, the number is obscenely high. The government should work to change the culture itself. Evidently it is fine for them to have a culture like that. It's cool by me, as long as they stay there...

 

[Fred]

The whole thing is a classic example of security vs freedom. Europe by and large has id cards, and its not unusual for police to stop us and ask for 'papers'.

In general police have a lot more rights to stop, intrude into peoples vehicles, than in the US.

You might say, well yea but they're only doing it against 'bad' people. Yet people will complain about police profiling quite a lot under their breath. How its unfair that they can be searched at will, etc etc.

Personally, I think the US has the right system. Theres enough info for the government if they so choose to look for it (and there are hassle factors involved, which protects against abuse) all the while protecting civil liberties.

I'd vote no on the national ID card personally, just b/c I hate slippery slopes.

 

[London Geezer]

The whole thing is a classic example of security vs freedom. Europe by and large has id cards, and its not unusual for police to stop us and ask for 'papers'.

In general police have a lot more rights to stop, intrude into peoples vehicles, than in the US.

You might say, well yea but they're only doing it against 'bad' people. Yet people will complain about police profiling quite a lot under their breath. How its unfair that they can be searched at will, etc etc.

Personally, I think the US has the right system. Theres enough info for the government if they so choose to look for it (and there are hassle factors involved, which protects against abuse) all the while protecting civil liberties.

I'd vote no on the national ID card personally, just b/c I hate slippery slopes.

I see your point, however it seems the US is a case of freedom/liberalism gone terribly wrong.
But what do i know, i'm here, i only see what's fed to me through layers and layers of biased journalists and reporters so...

 

[Barnabas]

In general police have a lot more rights to stop, intrude into peoples vehicles, than in the US.

Do they? When can the police stop a car in the us and when not?

 

[akira888]

In general police have a lot more rights to stop, intrude into peoples vehicles, than in the US.

Do they? When can the police stop a car in the us and when not?

If they have "probable cause." Which means they need some concrete suspection of criminal activity, such as bizarre/erratic driving, rather than just speeding, for instance. In recent years unfortunately many police departments have tested the limits of this and have so far gottten away with it - such as the infamous "drunk driving checkpoints" which are blatently unconstitutional.

I think it's utterly disgusting that a goverment is so stuck up its own power-trip-thing that it doesn't do anything to avoid this.

Government is stuck on a "power trip" because it's doing nothing? that's exactly what government should do 99.99% of the time, nothing. "Power tripping" is when government exceeds it's bounds, not when it sits quiet for a change.

Well, if it really is *unconstitutional* not take guns away from the people (which in itself is already pathetic enough), what's stopping the govt to just change the freaking constitution if they know it can lower the otherworldly high death rate???

Because Constitutions that can be changed on any fleeting whim that arises at a given time aren't really Constitutions - all they are is glorified statutes of law surrounded by noble sentiments. Sadly, most nations have these types. The US Constitution can only be changed basically if the planets are all in alignment (metaphorically speaking).

If you believe that "taking guns away" will lower the "death rate" guess again. We've had fucking "drug prohibition" here for decades and guess what - I can get anything I want any time I want. And gun smuggling will work the exact same way. It's naive to believe that because some blowhard in Congress (or Parliament) passes a law to "ban" something that that something will just disappear. More often, the action of the law of unintended consquences will make situation worse. Not to mention all the civil liberties we've already lost due to the "Drug War" - I can't imagine how adding an equally futile and insane "Gun War" wouldn't push us into tyranny.

"He who takes security over liberty deserves neither." - Benjamin Franklin

Again. How is closing the gun show loophole a whitting down of the Second Amendment? How is putting child proof locks on guns so that it's more difficult for children to fire them a whittling down of the Second Amendment?

One of the metrics the Supremes have used for determining whether or not a statute violates the Bill of Rights is whether it has a "chilling effect" on the practice of that right. Since the Supremes has not heard a Amend-2 case in years (but will likely do so in the near future due to conflicting opinions issued by two Federal Circuit Courts) this has not been tested yet. I feel that these pose a "chilling effect" on the RKBA. You (and the Supremes perhaps) may differ.

 

[Basic]

I'm 34 years old. I've visited USA for just short of a week.

If I don't count the times when I find ít obvious to show an ID, such as doing or buying stuff with an age limit, making withdrawals from a bank, or going through customs, then I've got some possibly surprising statistics for me.

I've never ever needed to show an ID here in Sweden on some random check, but in USA I needed to show it several times. Seemingly for some kind of "you should know that we watch you" reason.

Not that I realy minded, and I do understand the increased checks after 911, but I find it a bit funny given the discussion here.

 

[London Geezer]

Government is stuck on a "power trip" because it's doing nothing? that's exactly what government should do 99.99% of the time, nothing. "Power tripping" is when government exceeds it's bounds, not when it sits quiet for a change.

Because Constitutions that can be changed on any fleeting whim that arises at a given time aren't really Constitutions - all they are is glorified statutes of law surrounded by noble sentiments. Sadly, most nations have these types. The US Constitution can only be changed basically if the planets are all in alignment (metaphorically speaking).

If you believe that "taking guns away" will lower the "death rate" guess again. We've had fucking "drug prohibition" here for decades and guess what - I can get anything I want any time I want. And gun smuggling will work the exact same way. It's naive to believe that because some blowhard in Congress (or Parliament) passes a law to "ban" something that that something will just disappear. More often, the action of the law of unintended consquences will make situation worse. Not to mention all the civil liberties we've already lost due to the "Drug War" - I can't imagine how adding an equally futile and insane "Gun War" wouldn't push us into tyranny.

"He who takes security over liberty deserves neither." - Benjamin Franklin

I guess we just have diametrically opposing opinions... The Govt is there to make sure the population doesn't go crazy. U're acting like those 11000 dead people every year are something normal... Like, "well, guns are going to be smuggled anyway, so we might as well just sell them in shops to everyone!"... :|

 

[davefb]

11000 isnt the total number of gun deaths btw, i guess it must be the number of kids... 35,000 is the total for a year (1995)

couldnt find any newer numbers

http://www.cnn.com/US/9805/02/silent.march/

as for uk,, dunblane has nothing to do with it,, the police are currently blaming people buying guns on the internet(!) , irish terror groups for offloading there weapons and "gun-culture" amongst youth's for increased gun ownership and use.....

recent uk figures,
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/3195908.stm

gun-crime deaths actually dropped from 95 to 80.... apparently one reason the uk got huge jumps is because
1. a bloke with an air-rifle is now a 'gun-incident'
2. police got told off for not reporting every incident,, they now do,, therefore there was a big jump in reported figures....

-dave-

 

[notAFanB]

I guess we just have diametrically opposing opinions... The Govt is there to make sure the population doesn't go crazy.

NO Government Should Ever do that!!!

U're acting like those 11000 dead people every year are something normal...

unfortunately it is, and I am afraid that there is little you can do about it.

"well, guns are going to be smuggled anyway, so we might as well just sell them in shops to everyone!"...

no the point is that it's just not practical. that is all

Because Constitutions that can be changed on any fleeting whim that arises at a given time aren't really Constitutions - all they are is glorified statutes of law surrounded by noble sentiments. Sadly, most nations have these types. The US Constitution can only be changed basically if the planets are all in alignment (metaphorically speaking).

wait can you not amend statutes?

 

[London Geezer]

35000?? jesus...

Akira and everyone, forgot to say, i really don't care that much, it baffles me because it just is not normal, but in the end, you live there, you believe what you believe and you will decide what is best for you and our country. I'm in the UK, i can't do anything about it. As long as this kind of mentality doesn't get here, you can say whatever you want to say, not my problem...
It just isn't normal, whatever you guys say.

 

[davefb]

not sure about the uk figures(but very likely to be the same), but it's probable that the 35,000 includes suicides,,,

-dave-

like that matters :-/

 

[notAFanB]

it baffles me because it just is not normal, but in the end, you live there, you believe what you believe and you will decide what is best for you and our country.

putting aside whats considered 'normal' for a moment yes they (hte citizens) should decide within their own ystem what to do with it, and leave the rest of us out of it.

It just isn't normal, whatever you guys say.

pop down to China for a visit I'd reccommend.

 

[London Geezer]

Makes you think twice before complaining about the UK and the weather (which BTW is very nice today )... :?

 

[London Geezer]

pop down to China for a visit I'd reccommend.

See.. there u go... so now the US is second only to China in mess-factor within the factor? wow...

Let me just go back to complaining about the UK and the pigeons. And the grannies who push u in the queue (they'd just shoot u in the US, right... just getting in the right mentality here, since it's normal there).

PS: I AM kidding, u know... errr...

 

[notAFanB]

pop down to China for a visit I'd reccommend.

See.. there u go... so now the US is second only to China in mess-factor within the factor? wow...

Let me just go back to complaining about the UK and the pigeons. And the grannies who push u in the queue.

no, I am refusing to place any judgement on how 'bad' or 'good' on social norms.

My point reconsidertion of whats 'normal' is by visiting said nation, perhaps living there for a protracted period.

PS: I know, But I'm deadly serious about this one

 

[London Geezer]

Jokes aside, yeah i agree we can't know anything unless we live there (and even then...)... But we have figures, and i know we should never base our opinions on figures, but we're talking about 11000 (best case scenario here!) dead people (for gunshots) versus 90 in the UK... Do you see where i'm comin from?

 

[notAFanB]

This is gonna seem like I'm rattling on ya but,

Jokes aside, yeah i agree we can't know anything unless we live there (and even then...)...

my opinion? It's not about knowing something. Anyone can do that, just read a book, go online, speak with a friend.

but we're talking about 11000 (best case scenario here!) dead people (for gunshots) versus 90 in the UK... Do you see where i'm comin from?

Of course I do, but try and refrain from playing into the comparison trap. A better question would be if you take gun ownerhip out of the equation ..what changes?


oh and I Love the weather in London, smells like home.....

 

[London Geezer]

Of course I do, but try and refrain from playing into the comparison trap. A better question would be if you take gun ownerhip out of the equation ..what changes?

Would anyone try to argue that MAYBE, just MAYBE, if guns weren't sold like toys in the US, then MAYBE the death rate would be SLIGHTLY lower?............... errrrrr...........

oh and I Love the weather in London, smells like home.....

How about the pigeons? Gotta love the pigeons...
London is growing on me (after a depression time)... last night i was at a friend's flat, penthouse at the 16th floor. view of litterally all of london, by night... From the Big Ben to Tower bridge... Everything... i was