My thoughts on the Nintendo situation. (I am a Nintendo fan)

jarrod said:
Likewise though, I'd think the fact Nintendo was initially pursuing CD-ROM heavily (through Sony, then Phillips, then a joint alliance between both) shows the interest there. Justification for the cart format came not only from the bean counters at NCL most likely but also Miyamoto (who's feelings on the matter are pretty well publicized).

Eh, Miyamoto always justifies what his boss claims, because it's his job ;) Yamauchi defined N64 as the cart-driven system and Miyamoto just tried to justify it.

To be exactly, Nintendo was not initially pursuing CD-ROM. Rather, Sony's persistent, annoying offer of their own CD-ROM technology moved Nintendo for a brief time. :)

According to these series of articles in a Japanese IT business, not gaming, webzine which details from the early days of the Nintendo-Sony relationship to the birth of PS/PS2, Sony's game business started when Ken Kutaragi approached Nintendo in April, 1986 (Family Computer/Famicom was released in 1983, and NES in 1985). This story is very interesting for me, so I put a rough translation/transcription of it here.

In July 1987 Nintendo and Sony had a brainstorming camp in Shizuoka to discuss about a next-gen Famicom. At the table Kutaragi proposed the adoptation of CD-ROM but Nintendo rejected saying ROM cartridge was their prefered way. Then, in the following years Sony proposed PCM sound chip for Super Famicom/SNES and Nintendo accepted it. From there on, their co-project started as "Play Station Project".

In April 1989, Kutaragi proposed CD-ROM again to Nintendo, and Nintendo rejected it again, but in October Kutaragi started the design of an SNES CD system by himself.

Then, finally, in Jan 1990 Nintendo accepted CD-ROM. Sony president Norio Oga and Nintendo's Yamauchi signed the agreement of the development of "the next generation Famicom with CD-ROM". Sony made a design sample in May, and in October Sony engineers including Kutaragi and game developers from EPIC Sony formed the prototype of Sony Computer Entertainment. Meanwhile, Nintendo released Super Famicom in November 1990.

At June 1st in 1991, at the CES in Chicago, Sony unveiled the SNES-compatible CD-ROM gaming machine. However, at the very next day at the show, possiblly fearing the growing presence of Sony, Nintendo stabbed Sony in the back by announcing the alliance with Philips. Sony already knew the betrayal in May, but had believed Nintendo might change its mind by looking Sony executing the contract to the end.

Sony had negotiations with Nintendo for 1 year rather than jumping on drastic countermeasures such as stopping the supply of the sound chip in SNES. But eventually, at the Sony executive conference at 1992/06/24, Sony made the final decision about their game business. Here, this business magazine praises the decision of the Sony president Norio Oga, who chose to restart its own gaming business rather than surrender to Nintendo by making an SNES-compatible machine or complete withdrawal from the game business.

In Nov. 1993 Sony Computer Entertainment was founded by Sony and Sony Music paying each half of the capital stock, and in Dec 1994 Playstation was released.

From there on this article briefly touchs the Playstation hardware and reviews SCE's business model against Nintendo's one but I omit it. One interesting episode is disclosed there for the idea of the Playstation hardware: Sony's origin in the game business was when in 1984 Kutaragi saw a 3D-CG processing system for TV stations called "Geometory Engine" in the Sony lab he worked at, and thought it must be interesting if Famicom had this 3D hardware. So the PlayStation is the synthesis of what Sony had in the digital technology, this Geometory Engine and CD-ROM.
 
Interesting read, though I thought the Sony affiliation with Nintendo actually started with the design of the SFC sound chip, not a CD-ROM proposal? I've also heard Kutaragi started designing the sound chip in secret and that he originally approached Nintendo on Sony's behalf without any sort of upper management knowledge.

And I think you have Yamauchi & Miyamoto backwards in that exchange, regardless of who's really the 'boss'. ;)

I'm also a little hesitant to believe Nintendo wasn't themselves interested in CD-ROM, rather they were only giving in to Sony's driving desire. Besides Sony had already aided Sega with the Mega CD, they didn't really need Nintendo for a presence in the industry. Nintendo knew the limitations of silicon ROM early on, hence the experimentation with Famciom Disc System in 1983 (which is also the birthplace of their crippling fear over piracy) and even later tests like the various SFC CD-ROMs, 64DD, GOD and now DS 3DM cards. They've explored more format options and proposals than any other game hardware maufacturer actually.
 
jarrod said:
Interesting read, though I thought the Sony affiliation with Nintendo actually started with the design of the SFC sound chip, not a CD-ROM proposal? I've also heard Kutaragi started designing the sound chip in secret and that he originally approached Nintendo on Sony's behalf without any sort of upper management knowledge.

Yes, I've read an interview with Kutaragi in which he said the poor sound of Famicom disgusted him :D

jarrod said:
I'm also a little hesitant to believe Nintendo wasn't themselves interested in CD-ROM, rather they were only giving in to Sony's driving desire. Besides Sony had already aided Sega with the Mega CD, they didn't really need Nintendo for a presence in the industry. Nintendo knew the limitations of silicon ROM early on, hence the experimentation with Famciom Disc System in 1983 (which is also the birthplace of their crippling fear over piracy) and even later tests like the various SFC CD-ROMs, 64DD, GOD and now DS 3DM cards. They've explored more format options and proposals than any other game hardware maufacturer actually.

Ironically, Mega CD and PC-Engine CD-ROM^2 were both failure in Japan with their too high price points so the decision of Nintendo back then for SNES was right. Nintendo's philosophy always resides on making things affordable for children. However, in the N64 days, a CD-ROM drive was already cheap enough I think, though it's sure that Nintendo could keep N64 cheap as it lacks an optical drive.

And yes, Nintendo always tries something special and flexible and profitable for media ;)
 
marconelly! said:
Just FYI, the $185 package includes the battery charger (it's only a common sense, after all), so technically, if you want to save money to the max, the only thing you have to purchase if you want to game seriously, is a memory card, which you can find for around $15-$20 for 32MB (128MB model goes for ~$30-$35 nowadays) So, that clocks PSP+stick at around $200.

Of course, if you already have some of the money invested in these memory sticks for other Sony products, you can just use some of those, withouth having to purchase any new ones.

Have in mind also that $185 is a Japanese price, it's more than likely going to cost even less here.

#1) You know there IS a difference between an AC adapter and a battery charger. Have you ever been chatting on a cell phone, plugged into the wall, and had the battery die? It happens. A battery charger does not charge the battery as fast as it is drained (in most cases). An AC adapter on the other hand, applies direct current to the system, bypassing the battery completely.

#2) Customers that have memmory sticks for other high end Sony devices are not the mass market purchasers. I actually find it rather annoyign that Sony created that proprietary memmory standard when so many other options were already there. As a consumer I dislike the idea of having to buy different memmory media for different products... and will not allow a corporation to tie me down only to their products by the memmory type.

#3) The DS is priced more in the US than in Japan. If the PSP does not follow that trend Nintendo can easily drop the price to parity with the Japanese price (or lower) and easily open up a $100 price gap between the cost of the DS and the cost of PSP+Memmory stick (let alone the other accessories I think you really need to get a passable portable experience out of the PSP).

I really think that in the immediate futre the DS will be the mass market handheld, and Sony will have an uphill battle against it (after all the GBA greatly outsells the PS2, and is the best selling video game system of all time. It IS mass market gaming). I really think there is plenty of room for both the PSP and the DS, but I think the DS will be the mass market handheld while the PSP, at least initially will be for the hardcore gamer/tech junkie.

We'll all see how things really turn out.
 
Ironically, Mega CD and PC-Engine CD-ROM^2 were both failure in Japan with their too high price points so the decision of Nintendo back then for SNES was right.

Actually the PCE CDROM was quite successful in Japan. Sure gamers didn't get the attachment on a 1 to 1 ratio with their PCE purchase, but that is expected since it was an addon. It started to sell quite well when more and more games were released on CDROM.

The MD CDROM didn't do too well in Japan though because the MD itself didn't do too well there.
 
#1) You know there IS a difference between an AC adapter and a battery charger. Have you ever been chatting on a cell phone, plugged into the wall, and had the battery die? It happens. A battery charger does not charge the battery as fast as it is drained (in most cases). An AC adapter on the other hand, applies direct current to the system, bypassing the battery completely.

So are you saying that Sony will sell the unit with a rechargeable battery but no way to recharge it unless you buy an accessory?

Who else sells electronics with such a setup?
 
#1) You know there IS a difference between an AC adapter and a battery charger. Have you ever been chatting on a cell phone, plugged into the wall, and had the battery die? It happens. A battery charger does not charge the battery as fast as it is drained (in most cases). An AC adapter on the other hand, applies direct current to the system, bypassing the battery completely.
OK...

However, the battery charger included in the value pack is the same damn thing that is being included in the cheaper ($185) pack, so I don't see what's your point here.

#3) The DS is priced more in the US than in Japan. If the PSP does not follow that trend Nintendo can easily drop the price to parity with the Japanese price (or lower) and easily open up a $100 price gap between the cost of the DS and the cost of PSP+Memmory stick (let alone the other accessories I think you really need to get a passable portable experience out of the PSP).
Pricing higher in US than in Japan is not a trend but rather the oposite of it. DS probably got away with it as it's releasing earlier in the US than it is in Japan. PSP is releasing later here, and pretty much everyone expects it to cost less than in Japan, as that's how SCEA always operated so far. Whether Nintendo will lower their prices because of PSP pricing is anyone's guess, but so far they haven't chnaged them in Japan.
 
marconelly! said:
#1) You know there IS a difference between an AC adapter and a battery charger. Have you ever been chatting on a cell phone, plugged into the wall, and had the battery die? It happens. A battery charger does not charge the battery as fast as it is drained (in most cases). An AC adapter on the other hand, applies direct current to the system, bypassing the battery completely.
However, the battery charger included in the value pack is the same damn thing that is being included in the cheaper ($185) pack, so I don't see what's your point here.
Not to mention most electronic devices I purchase nowadays charge up while plugged into the wall or cradle anyway, even if they're being used. (Though they tend to turn off momentarily when they're placed on the charger, which annoys me a bit with my cordless phone, but what can you do?)

Also not to mention that the first announcements of the package listed the part in question as this: AC Adapter (which will also charge the system, although there are also terminals for seating the system in a cradle) and follow-up articles mention things like As far as charging the battery is concerned, SCE is currently investigating how much time the charging process will take. The company does state that you'll be able to play games while charging. So, um... what do you think? (Even your cell phone comparison is a bit amusing, since japanese cell phones are specifically made for use-while-charging, and PSP announcements were reassuring customers that it would operate the same way. ;) Not to mention anyone's recent cell phone buying operates the same way.)

The saddest thing is simply that there isn't a cradle yet! :p
 
marconelly! said:
However, the battery charger included in the value pack is the same damn thing that is being included in the cheaper ($185) pack, so I don't see what's your point here.

*Checks* That is interesting. I wonder why they call them two seperate things in the kits. It looks like the PSP is designed such that the AC adapter can be used either to charge the system, or to charge the system while simultaniously providing it direct current.
 
What product these days can't charge and let you use it at the same time?

Other than some cell phone chargers which are physically designed to prevent you from opening the phones.
 
As predicted: Gamecube is getting murdered in the US this holiday.

November NPD:

9 GCN METROID PRIME 2: ECHO / $9,483,345 / 192,332
14 GCN PAPER MARIO: THOUSAND /$6,699,387 / 143,399
19 GCN MARIO POWER TENNIS / $4,824,762 / 98,100

Hardware:

PS2: 694K (all SKUs including bundles)
XBX: 708K (all SKUs including bundles)
NGC: 350K (all colors/bundles)
 
Care to show GBA-SP and DS numbers? ;) Change "Nintendo" to "GameCube" and then you'd actually have a point. Although the "prediction" thing is a bit pointless isn't it? Lets see, you predicted that the GC, XBox and PS2 would continue to sell at a similar ratio at Christmas as they did the rest of the year, just higher? Well that's heardly rocket science is it, did anyone even say otherwise?

What are worldwide sales for December BTW?
 
Qroach - we can share can't we? I was the one who dug up that awesome gem to begin with. :)

Teasy - Is that the sound of you changing your tune? I want to edit it to say Gamecube, but for some reason I can't. Probably because of the age of the thread.

Ok, let me clarify: The Cube is tanking. Nintendo is fine because of the GBA/NDS.
 
Changing my tune? What are you on about? Care to quote me saying that GC would do better then XBox or PS2 this November?

BTW why are you only showing Nintendo's own game sales, why not post the whole list and just highlight first party Nintendo games?

P.S. I can still edit my posts so I'm not sure why you can't edit..
 
Teasy said:
What are worldwide sales for December BTW?
Don't you think we'll have to get out of December first? ;)
Teasy said:
Changing my tune? What are you on about? Care to quote me saying that GC would do better then XBox or PS2 this November?
I'm sure you said something positive about the GameCube at some point, you damn fool! :p
BTW why are you only showing Nintendo's own game sales, why not post the whole list and just highlight first party Nintendo games?
He is actually listing all the GCN game sales in the Top 20 (you can see the full list in the other thread he resurrected)--they just happen to be only first-party ones.
 
Johnny Awesome said:
Qroach - we can share can't we? I was the one who dug up that awesome gem to begin with. :)

Teasy - Is that the sound of you changing your tune? I want to edit it to say Gamecube, but for some reason I can't. Probably because of the age of the thread.

Ok, let me clarify: The Cube is tanking. Nintendo is fine because of the GBA/NDS.

Nintendo is also doing fine because of GameCube. They still make a rather large profit out of it, in opposition to Microsoft, who has lost nearly 3 billion dollar by now...
 
cthellis42

Yeah I meant November..

Oh and yeah, I should know better then to say anything positive about Nintendo on this forum :)

He is actually listing all the GCN game sales in the Top 20

Yep I know, but it would make more sense to show the full list and just highlight the GC games on it.
 
Gamecube never sold in the second place in the US since the the exit to the market of the system.

This is not new, Nintendo with Gamecube is third in USA since december 2001.
 
Gamecube never sold in the second place in the US since the the exit to the market of the system.

Actually GC has sold in second place quite a few times (not for around a year though). It hasn't actually been second in total sales in the U.S alone for years though, your right there.
 
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