MS's "secret weapon" against the PS3 (Arstechnica)

[expletive]

Are there going to be games that render in only 1080p the same way Resistance renders in only 720p? If this is the case will the PS3 output only 480p to those people who cannot accept a 1080p signal on their display?

 

[blakjedi]

My opinion is that the PS3 should be able to work mostly without a scaler, and that the absence of a scaler about matches the absence of HDMI on the 360.

Uh what? How does not being able to display a game correctly or at all equate to not having a digital output? "Component in" is universal and has been... and will continue to be... HDMI is nice but unecessary obviously... a lack of proper scaling capability is just bad... I am sure that Sony will find a way around this eventually... of course their solution may just be... buy a better [SONY] TV...

 

[Kryton]

Uh what? How does not being able to display a game correctly or at all equate to not having a digital output? "Component in" is universal and has been... and will continue to be... HDMI is nice but unecessary obviously... a lack of proper scaling capability is just bad... I am sure that Sony will find a way around this eventually... of course their solution may just be... buy a better [SONY] TV...

Ah well, us Europeans won't have this problem because there has been a legitimate branding exercise requiring HDTV Ready TV's to obey a standard. You must support 720p/1080i input!

 

[rounin]

Ah well, us Europeans won't have this problem because there has been a legitimate branding exercise requiring HDTV Ready TV's to obey a standard. You must support 720p/1080i input!

Perhaps they should have released the PS3 in Europe first then .

Too bad

 

[blakjedi]

... at least have the decency to quote correct or understand the point that was being brought forward.

I will help you out on this because i think that you are incorrect and swanlee was absolutely correct.

Except that majority of 360 titles I've seen to date run 480 native, and PS3 titles with supersampled 480 already exist as well.

No one said that the majority of 360 games are being rendered at 480p and then upscaled - Fafalada was pointing out that the majority of games displayed on SDTVs on Xbox360 are natively rendered at that resolution and not at 720p and then resized by the internal scaler.

Actually Faf did say exactly that. And there is NOTHING in his statement that says anything about his comment being particular to SDTVs. That seems be just editorial on your part... for whatever reason. Be accurate in your corrections and criticism at least.

 

[jonabbey]

Actually Faf did say exactly that. And there is NOTHING in his statement that says anything about his comment being particular to SDTVs. That seems be just editorial on your part... for whatever reason. Be accurate in your corrections and criticism at least.

You quoted Faf as talking about supersampled 480, though, which is only meaningfully relevant on SDTV sets. The domain of discussion was implied.

 

[rounin]

Actually Faf did say exactly that. And there is NOTHING in his statement that says anything about his comment being particular to SDTVs. That seems be just editorial on your part... for whatever reason. Be accurate in your corrections and criticism at least.

But what happens when you take into account the post he was replying to? Thats right, context comes into play ...

 

[Tap In]

I see MS engineers are promoting Sony TV's again.

indeed

I'm there with Aaron Greenberg, the Group Marketing Manager for Xbox Live, and Scott Henson, product unit manager for Microsoft's game technology group. They're open and surprisingly unguarded. In addition to the nice display are a 360 with an HD DVD drive and the 60GB PS3. Both are also online, and there are a stack of games between them. "We're selling Bravias on the side," they joke, and I'm invited to take a look around the setup, with the air of a magician telling me there's nothing up his sleeve. They want to be sure I'm happy with how each system is hooked up and that I don't think one system has the advantage in cabling or anything else. "We want to compare apples to apples," they tell me.

Cool little chip device that Ana.

developed in coordination with Xenos by the engineers who came over from the WebTV group according to Xbox Uncloaked


edit: fixed the bolding mess

 

[Phil]

I will help you out on this because i think that you are incorrect and swanlee was absolutely correct.

Perhaps reading the entire post would be helpful next time and would spare us from this nonsense:

First Quote:

PS3 games looking like shit on SDTVs (no automatic supersampling) is a pretty big deal.

Reply by Fafalada to that specific quote:

Except that majority of 360 titles I've seen to date run 480 native, and PS3 titles with supersampled 480 already exist as well.

It's clear to me what Fafalada was pointing out. Obviously, it isn't to the two of you.
This does in fact highlight what I think should be a minimal requirement on this board: The decency to at least read the posts one is quoting and a fair share of common-sense to understand the context most replies are written in before criticizing.

Cheers Phil

 

[Tap In]

settle down now boys..... no need to try and get this thread locked.

let's have discussion

 

[Tap In]

Either way, the point is that the broken scaler in the PS3 does mean users with outdated CRT HDTVs or users with poor scalers (or ones with high latency when scaling or using image enhancing technologies) are in for a less than ideal ride. A functional scaler means everyone, even those with crappy HDTVs, can get the best possible image their set can receive.

exactly

and allegedly the fact that Bluray can not currently output at 720p is troublesome to those with native 720p sets as well. (I expect that to be fixed with software)

 

[Johnny Awesome]

The omission of proper scaling from the PS3 is a serious and embarassing oversight IMO. The fact is that many potential early adopters, ie. people willing to pay $600 for an HD game console, are the same type of people that purchased their HDTVs years ago when 1080i only sets were quite common. The idea that 1080i is not "true" HD is nonsense. At least two major networks broadcast in this standard even. The fact that Sony doesn't support all the TVs that are out there like MS does makes them look pretty foolish as an electronics/hardware company IMO.

 

[habbe]

Ok stupid question.

From what i've seen there is no TV:s with HDMI and without a scalar right ?.

 

[blakjedi]

You guys are bugging are we reading the same thing?

PS3 games looking like shit on SDTVs (no automatic supersampling) is a pretty big deal.

Except that majority of 360 titles I've seen to date run 480 native, and PS3 titles with supersampled 480 already exist as well.

Regardless of the fact that Faf was replying to zeckensacks comment related to automatic supersampling, the statement that "the majority of 360 titles he's seen to date run 480 native" is what swanlee was commenting on. If Faf's meaning was that 360's games can be output natively at 480p as opposed to PS3's then that is a different statement and one that does not come across clearly FWIW. No disrespect intended towards Faf in either case because technically he may be correct.

On the other hand, folks going at swanlee was uncalled for because his reading of the actual text of the post was correct and in context.

Technically I dont care either way, but folks poopooing this capability as either meaningless or representative of the 360's inability to output proper 720 or 1080 native resolutions and needing to rely on the scaler in games (which is how several people's comments come across) sounds pretty immature - and there has been ALOT of this happening in the threads recently.

 

[Carl B]

"Are these 1080i TVs being sold in the US today still not able to handle 720p input?"

Yes there still are CRT HDTV's and Rear Projection HDTV's being sold today that are 1080I only and do not handle 720P.

Swanlee, first I want to say that I own one of the TVs in question; I bought it three years ago.

But secondly, I want to ask, can you link to a major store in the US still selling such televisions? Ones that do not accept a 720p signal? Because frankly, I just don't think that's the case. For what it's worth I think myself and most other early adopters knew they were buying outmoded technology when we picked up our 1080i-only sets (I know I did), but we just wanted those HD inches on the cheap.

I would of course prefer the PS3 to scale, but I think as time goes on this issue effects an ever decreasing segment of the population... and it's already a small segment to begin with. I think that Zeckensack had it right when he mentioned PS2 gaming as the place where this would help the most, but I'm hoping that when the emulation system is released (hopefully later this year) it will be a moot point anyway.

 

[pipo]

Ok stupid question.

From what i've seen there is no TV:s with HDMI and without a scalar right ?.

Dunno, but there is lots of HD hardware without HDMI.

 

[Johnny Awesome]

Swanlee, first I want to say that I own one of the TVs in question; I bought it three years ago.

I would of course prefer the PS3 to scale, but I think as time goes on this issue effects an ever decreasing segment of the population... and it's already a small segment to begin with. I think that Zeckensack had it right when he mentioned PS2 gaming as the place where this would help the most, but I'm hoping that when the emulation system is released (hopefully later this year) it will be a moot point anyway.

You're right that over time this issue will fade away, but it doesn't change the perception amongst early HD adopters that Sony flubbed big time in an area where they should have WAY more expertise than MS. It's sloppy and makes them look foolish IMO.

 

[Tap In]

Technically I dont care either way, but folks poopooing this capability as either meaningless or representative of the 360's inability to output proper 720 or 1080 native resolutions and needing to rely on the scaler in games (which is how several people's comments come across) sounds pretty immature - and there has been ALOT of this happening in the threads recently.

yep, it has been well documented that the 360 hardware is more than capable of rendering in 1080p so just because a few 1st year titles are allegedly running at a lower resolution does not mean squat in the scheme of things.

Just as Sony touting 1080p and then Pubs releasing most of their launch games at 720p says nothing negative about the PS3.

in fact based on some reviews of frame rates in some of those games, I'm guessing devs wish they could "cheat" with a scaler in the PS3 too (as some did on 360) until they figure out how to get a handle on the system.

 

[Carl B]

You're right that over time this issue will fade away, but it doesn't change the perception amongst early HD adopters that Sony flubbed big time in an area where they should have WAY more expertise than MS. It's sloppy and makes them look foolish IMO.

I think this point is debatable; there are plenty of us early HD adopters that understand why Sony is pursuing this route, and give them a pass on it based on the other things they have included in the system in it's place. On the other hand, obviously it is causing consternation among some.

 

[Phil]

IMO I think this talk about the missing scaler is redundant without having some sort of basis how many are affected from this problem.

The only people seriously affected, are those, that have a TV that only accept a 1080i or 480p signal. What happens with these TVs if you view a TV station that signals at 720p? I presume the same thing that is bound to happen on the PS3 as well - it will be displayed at 480p. I'm not sure about the US, but in Europe, these TVs are clearly not "HD-Ready" - something that is obviously a requirement if you want to enjoy full definition on PS3.

Early adopters that had the bad luck of buying such a device are just as bad off when viewing any TV signal that is sent in 720p. Buying things that eventually fail on the market is usually something that most early-adopters have to be able to live with. Buying a TV that is not HD-ready and therefore does is not fully supported by the PS3 is in fact bad luck. With the mess that started off with HD, something like this was bound to happen.

If I had the choice, I'm not really sure I would choose a scaler over a technical requirement to each software written to support at least a few sets of resolutions, especially when the market you are selling to features equipment that has a good-enough scaler on their own to the job. In anycase, I predict that this will be something that won't be mentioned in 1 or 2 years anymore and will be long forgotten (with or without a software solution by Sony)...