MS's "secret weapon" against the PS3 (Arstechnica)

[Fafalada]

PS3 games looking like shit on SDTVs (no automatic supersampling) is a pretty big deal.

Except that majority of 360 titles I've seen to date run 480 native, and PS3 titles with supersampled 480 already exist as well.

Mind you, I'm very curious how you propose to automatically convert 16:9 HD to 4:3 SD on Scanout without breaking the image quality or game.

Losing the ability to make decisions and tradeoffs in fill vs fps vs over/undersampling that are independent of the dispay that's hooked up is a pretty big deal.

Ok I don't get this one at all. Are you talking about endusers or developers, and can you elaborate it?

 

[deathkiller]

How much memory and procesing time is requiered to upscale 720p to 1080i/p?
If the memory requieriment is low Sony could reduce the OS reserved memory to patch current games.

Every game support 720p, how many non-720p native displays have scaling latency problems?

 

[one]

This is a poorly thought out connection.

How about the cost?
BTW,

Scaling is a digital process.

Does it mean the scaler has no analog part at all?

 

[Rolf N]

Except that majority of 360 titles I've seen to date run 480 native, and PS3 titles with supersampled 480 already exist as well.

Some games don't (EA Sports), some do (Epic), and if the same already applies to the PS3 it's better than I was aware of, with the remaining difference being the unified, reliable (quality-wise) system-wide solution. HD support, this decade at least and probably much longer, automatically implies flexible resolutions. It really should be solved on the system level beyond just an output res selection.
It isn't useful to move it to software because you need it all the time. It's an always-on function. Dedicated silicon is the saner (and cheaper) solution to such problems.

Mind you, I'm very curious how you propose to automatically convert 16:9 HD to 4:3 SD on Scanout without breaking the image quality or game.

You don't? You'll want to account for aspect ratios on the application end, whether you scale or not. A 2D puzzler would react to a change in aspect ratio in an entirely different way than a 3D game. You can't hide this information from the app.

The difference is still the same. You either have a common method of performing the scaling as per the parameters you require or you don't.

Ok I don't get this one at all. Are you talking about endusers or developers, and can you elaborate it?

Developers. It isn't a well-loved tactic but we know there are certain games out there that render in "improper" resolutions (540p, 600p etc) and scale to match the output resolution as a performance "optimization".

There's a certain other game that renders at 1280x1024 ("wrong" aspect ratio for any TV format) and scales that to anamorphic widescreen with slight supersampling. IOW they had some breathing room to render more pixels than they planned for and used it.

The issue here, without flexible, general scaling, is two-fold:
1)You can't scale -- duh
2)You can't output that native "improper" res and expect TVs to display it properly.


PS: When I said "I hope" a solution can be found, I actually meant that. With that comes automatically that I believe it is possible. And I don't insist on a hardware solution, it just would be nicer design.

 

[inefficient]

Sony FTW

When I walk into the room, I'm amused at their choice of display: a Sony Bravia XBR2 1080p LCD. It's a gorgeous display, and I remark on it.

I see MS engineers are promoting Sony TV's again.

BTW how expensive would a little converter box that takes analog component inputs and outputs a scaled image be? If its not that expensive it could be an option for people with old/unsupported TVs.

Something like this, but for component. And a mainstream consumer product - not pro.

 

[DeanA]

it would be great for a dev confirmation if possible, but this seems like a plausible theory.

Indeed. Given the very specific audio/video output requirements of PS3 (HDMI/HDCP, multi A/V out, optical out etc), it shouldn't come as a surprise that a different display output system to that found on nVidia G70 boards is used on PS3..

Cheers,
Dean

 

[JardeL]

I'm a noobie on these tech issues ... I'll ask some simple questions ;

1- ] Is there a scaler chip on RSX ?,
2- ] If there is one ,is there a way to make it work ,eg. fw upgrades by Sony ?,
3- ] For Xbox360 , is this ANA chip compatible with HDMI or no relation between them ?,
4 -] If Ana and HDMI aren't compatible , so is that mean no Xbox360 with an HDMI port in the future ?,
5-] And last , this Ana scaler doesn't effect IQ ?..

 

[Nesh]

IIRC another dev said there was a scaler in the PS3 but they were not allowed to use it.

But why? I see no logic in that

 

[London Geezer]

What is it with these names? First the Wii... Then this ANA chip... Do they do it on purpose??

 

[Arwin]

I'm a noobie on these tech issues ... I'll ask some simple questions ;

1- ] Is there a scaler chip on RSX ?,
2- ] If there is one ,is there a way to make it work ,eg. fw upgrades by Sony ?,
3- ] For Xbox360 , is this ANA chip compatible with HDMI or no relation between them ?,
4 -] If Ana and HDMI aren't compatible , so is that mean no Xbox360 with an HDMI port in the future ?,
5-] And last , this Ana scaler doesn't effect IQ ?..

1. I don't know.
2. Yes, presumably.
3. Right now I think the ANA handles the digital to analog conversion as well as the scaling? I don't know at what level the ANA operates.
4. I'm sure Microsoft can create an HDMI supporting 360 in the future if they want to. They will wait for a while though, as it will cost them a significant amount of money. As long as they think they can get by without HDMI, they will.
5. Scalers are meant to improve IQ, so you'd hope it does affect IQ. However, if developers are relying on the scaler for their games, results may vary.

My opinion is that the PS3 should be able to work mostly without a scaler, and that the absence of a scaler about matches the absence of HDMI on the 360. What they need to do is have the BluRay playback software scale to 720p, and add upscaling through the DVD playback software as well. Together with games supporting both 720p and 1080i natively, most issues should be solved then, especially if you take into account that most modern TVs have decent scalers themselves.

There are advantages in that the games can determine for the user what resolution they will look best in. However, there may be instances where the user can determine this better, and there would also be an advantage having a scaler chip present for Plasma's that have weird resolutions like 1024x768.

Probably the biggest advantage of the 360's scaler right now is for game-programmers, who can achieve better frame-rates by 'cheating' and using a lower resolution. If you can't tell that the image has been upscaled this way, then who's complaining?

 

[Kryton]

There are advantages in that the games can determine for the user what resolution they will look best in. However, there may be instances where the user can determine this better, and there would also be an advantage having a scaler chip present for Plasma's that have weird resolutions like 1024x768.

But that is down to the TV, provided you can drive the inputs such that the TV scaler works I don't see the problem. The user/console shouldn't need to know the native output resolution unless the TV will explicitly accept that input? I don't know many that accept their native resolution as an input signal format?

 

[rabidrabbit]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Acert93
IIRC another dev said there was a scaler in the PS3 but they were not allowed to use it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nesh
But why? I see no logic in that

Maybe it's just for pure PR purposes, so that the first batch of games would truly be HD, ie 720p or 1080p, not some 480p upscaled to HD by the scaler chip.
If there had been games that were developed in less than 720p, Sony would've gotten a lot of bad press for the games not being "true HD" even though they've drumrolled it so heavily.
...not that Sony hasn't got some some bad press.

Later, when the HD hype has settled, they'll open up the scaler, and let the devs make games that render internally less than 720p, but outbut 720p or avove aided by the scaler chip.

 

[swanlee]

How on earth are some of you coming to the conclusion that most of the 360 games are rendered at 480P and are upscaled? If that were the case the upscaling chip or not the PS3 games would look a ton better than 360 games and right now that is hardly the case.

I really find it interesting how biased this message board is, for a group that prides itself on it's technical knowledge you guys seem to let your own brand loyalty get in the way of rational thought.

The Scaler in the 360 is a good thing as it gives a level IQ across the board, it allows flexibility for users and programmers and it allows the 360 to display various resolutions to match what ever type of HDTV or monitor you have.

In the united states 1080I only HDTV's are certainly classified as HDTV's and are still being sold to this day. In fact Sony themselves have made and sold HDTV' that were 1080I only, what excuse do they have for isolating their own HDTV user base?

 

[Nesh]

Maybe it's just for pure PR purposes, so that the first batch of games would truly be HD, ie 720p or 1080p, not some 480p upscaled to HD by the scaler chip.
If there had been games that were developed in less than 720p, Sony would've gotten a lot of bad press for the games not being "true HD" even though they've drumrolled it so heavily.
...not that Sony hasn't got some some bad press.

Later, when the HD hype has settled, they'll open up the scaler, and let the devs make games that render internally less than 720p, but outbut 720p or avove aided by the scaler chip.

They certaintly got lots of bad press due to scaling problems thats for sure. And probably more than if they allowed devs to use it

 

[DuckThor Evil]

They certaintly got lots of bad press due to scaling problems thats for sure. And probably more than if they allowed devs to use it

Somebody should clarify whether the issue with the scaler is that it's not allowed to use, or it's not possible to use it at the moment because of other reasons and what those reasons might be.

 

[Phil]

How on earth are some of you coming to the conclusion that most of the 360 games are rendered at 480P and are upscaled? If that were the case the upscaling chip or not the PS3 games would look a ton better than 360 games and right now that is hardly the case.

I really find it interesting how biased this message board is, for a group that prides itself on it's technical knowledge you guys seem to let your own brand loyalty get in the way of rational thought.

We're well aware that this board (just like all the others) has its fair share of immature members, but when already going about criticising some of the brought forward points, especially by a respected developer, at least have the decency to quote correct or understand the point that was being brought forward.

No one said that the majority of 360 games are being rendered at 480p and then upscaled - Fafalada was pointing out that the majority of games displayed on SDTVs on Xbox360 are natively rendered at that resolution and not at 720p and then resized by the internal scaler.

 

[Crossbar]

In the united states 1080I only HDTV's are certainly classified as HDTV's and are still being sold to this day. In fact Sony themselves have made and sold HDTV' that were 1080I only, what excuse do they have for isolating their own HDTV user base?

I thought the PS3 issue was related to 1080i TVs that can not handle 720p input.
Are these 1080i TVs being sold in the US today still not able to handle 720p input?

 

[Nesh]

Somebody should clarify whether the issue with the scaler is that it's not allowed to use, or it's not possible to use it at the moment because of other reasons and what those reasons might be.

True but it seems they are tight lipped and I dont like it

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Has there been any official word at all on the existence of any scalar hardware? Don't we just have a best-guess from forum talk? eg. Could not hardware for scaling been included in the OS SPE if that was earmarked for this task but as we know, the OS rolled out without a lot of features?

 

[swanlee]

"Are these 1080i TVs being sold in the US today still not able to handle 720p input?"

Yes there still are CRT HDTV's and Rear Projection HDTV's being sold today that are 1080I only and do not handle 720P. Up until 2 years ago the majority of HDTV's in the U.S we're 1080I only

The PS3 is one of the only HD output devices that DOES NOT have a scaler. My HD cable box has a scaler, 130$ upscaling DVD players have a scaler why not the 600$ PS3?