MS wants XBox2 out before PS3?

[archie4oz]

Archie - if Lockheed had brought out R3D-100 as a consumer/gamer 3D card and used it against Voodoo1 and even Voodoo2, how well do you think it would have done, in terms of performance, feature set, image quality, ease of development, etc? I pretty much have my own idea but wanted to see if other people's thoughts were similar.

It would've been nice I guess... Considering that they couldn't get the cost down though it's a rather moot point. Also, having that much trouble launching a consumer product, it would've been outclassed by later parts that relied on more powerful CPUs... Very similar to what happend to the XZ graphics option on the SGI Indy, when the R4600, R4400 and R5000 variants came out...

You think developers would have embraced R3D-100 instead of Voodoo/Glide, if priced at $180-200 ....the price originally mentioned in 1995 for a Lockheed PC card, but wasn't actually for -100, it would be the later i740.

If it had come out sure...

 

[Fafalada]

Fair enough. From a coders standpoint I would assume that you would have to tend to pay a decent amount of attention to what is handling what within the EE.

Well, you don't need to pay any attention to it, but then you'll literally end up using R5900 core alone and nothing else - which only confirms Archie's point

 

[megadrive0088]

R3D-1000 ? is that what you mean ? I don't think R3D-100 has that kind of spec.

I did mean R3D-100, not the Pro-1000

I'm quite certain the R3D-100 had 750,000 polys/sec performance, and I *think* that was with all features on, but it was at least with texture mapping. the 33M pixel/sec fillrate was also for the -100.


The Pro-1000 had a 66M pixel/sec fillrate that could and did go higher.
(200M pixels/sec i believe)

 

[BenSkywalker]

JF-

Since you obviously wanted me to reply ]

As long as the basic computing hardware (HDD, Motherboard, CPU, etc) is at the consumer's end, there will be never ending trouble.

You are going to have hardware at the end user no matter what. Hardware failure is almost always due to cheap hardware or excessive age. Hardware dies over time, that is an excepted norm for all consumer devices(even non electrical). The issue on that end currently is simply getting people to buy a high quality PC instead of the cheapest or 'best deal' they can get. For every quality custom built rig that dies there are likely twenty emachines, ten Compaqs and five Dells

 

[randycat99]

For every quality custom built rig that dies there are likely twenty emachines, ten Compaqs and five Dells

So that is 20 crap machines for every 1 good machine. Sounds like a good market to delve into when it comes to releasing the consumer of unwanted hardware/OS/software liability. I think you could easily convince that customer to subscribe to a service for troublefree computing vs. persuading them to buy a "ripped" machine and still have to maintain it themself.

 

[BenSkywalker]

So that is 20 crap machines for every 1 good machine.

Huh? That's 20 junk machines for every one junk machine.

Sounds like a good market to delve into when it comes to releasing the consumer of unwanted hardware/OS/software liability.

Most consumers don't have many problems as it is. Windows 3.1 or Win95 aren't exactly pervasive any more. Once every few months I do have to reboot when I update a driver, however if I wasn't gaming with my rig(which wouldn't be viable for a utility based PC) not even that would be required(and I spend next to no time on PC maintenance, start defrag once every few weeks and even that could be handled by task scheduler but I loathe TSRs).

I think you could easily convince that customer to subscribe to a service for troublefree computing vs. persuading them to buy a "ripped" machine and still have to maintain it themself.

What maintenance? You get a good enough rig, have task scheduler set up and that's pretty much it already, even if we forget that they continue to improve upon it.

 

[randycat99]

That's the problem- the people who have the most problems with computers aren't you, and they probably are still running Win95/98/ME unless they recently bought new. These people don't know a "good rig" from a "task scheduler", nor do they care. They just want something that works, will continue to work, and likely don't want to deal with it when it stops working. To say your experience with a computer "built from the pinnacles of Windows harmony (to the extent of your personal PC knowledge)" is indicative of all other computer users who bought off the shelf from a store is quite a leap.

In case you misunderstood my earlier comment that came from your comment- that is 20 crap machines bought for every 1 quality-built machine from someone who "knows". Obviously there is the potential alternative market for those customers of the 20 crap machines.

 

[BenSkywalker]

They just want something that works, will continue to work, and likely don't want to deal with it when it stops working. To say your experience with a computer "built from the pinnacles of Windows harmony (to the extent of your personal PC knowledge)" is indicative of all other computer users who bought off the shelf from a store is quite a leap.

The point is that building a nigh pain free PC is easily done already today. MS and Intel are making considerable efforts to make this the norm instead of the exception. Considering it will take at least a decade or two to build anything resmbling Grid, I find it far more likely that PCs will be nigh trouble free prior to that. Consider it has only been seven years since Win95 first hit store shelves. A mere five years ago it was still the best alternative we had. PCs have improved by massive leaps since then, enough so that I find the odds of needing a utility fifteen years from now to give trouble free computing amusing if anything.

 

[randycat99]

The point is that building a nigh pain free PC is easily done already today.

Yes, you keep going back to the qualifier "building". I have no doubt that you can build a computer to your satisfaction. Not everybody is building their own computer, though. If you consider the total installed base of PC's out there, you'll probably find the DIY'ers are just a mere drop in the bucket. As surprising it is to imagine, it's just not everyone's cup of tea. Perhaps you could help my friend with her computer. It's an utter mess right now, and she knows a bit more about computers than most (but not you, of course).

MS and Intel are making considerable efforts to make this the norm instead of the exception.

Ah yes, endless wizards, keep up with the exploit patch of the week, rollback features, what have you... (Sorry, couldn't resist- don't get your shorts in a knot)

Considering it will take at least a decade or two to build anything resmbling Grid, I find it far more likely that PCs will be nigh trouble free prior to that.

"nigh trouble free"? This is Windows we are talking about, right, or are you predicting some future paradigm flip in mainstream OS's? The bigger this Windows OS gets, the more places there will be for bugs, holes, and exploits to hide...just IMHO. The birth of the Grid is irrelevant for this discussion. We are simply discussing computering as a service/utility, and possibly broadband is the only real prerequisite infrastructure for that. Ironically, M$ is already moving toward an over the wire strategy, wouldn't you say?

PCs have improved by massive leaps since then, enough so that I find the odds of needing a utility fifteen years from now to give trouble free computing amusing if anything.

They've certainly become more powerful and gigantic in scope. I'd say the increased complexity has washed the inherent reliability quality, overall. ...But if you find remote computing amusing, fair enough- it's only an opinion. I don't have a great need to keep beating this dead horse topic, do you?

 

[BenSkywalker]

Yes, you keep going back to the qualifier "building".

I do that because someone has to build it. There is nothing in the world stopping companies like Dell or Compaq from building actual quality PCs. Alienware and the like already do it. When I reccomend a system to people I always pick one of the 'specialty' builders if they insist on going OEM. Building a quality PC certainly doesn't require much intelligence nor knowledge, search out the best components and slap them together. Building a quality PC is actually extremely easy, doing it while maintaining the margins companies want at a price people want it the only tricky part. Once more companies realize that 'obsolete' quality hardware will land them more long term customers then low quality 'cutting edge' parts things will improve.

The bigger this Windows OS gets, the more places there will be for bugs, holes, and exploits to hide...just IMHO.

Win95 or Win 3.1 v WinXP.... nuf said

We are simply discussing computering as a service/utility, and possibly broadband is the only real prerequisite infrastructure for that.

BB isn't close to enough for a computing utility. It may have been in this thread that we discussed it although I don't recall at the moment.

Ironically, M$ is already moving toward an over the wire strategy, wouldn't you say?

And it's not catching on in any way with non business consumers.

I don't have a great need to keep beating this dead horse topic, do you?

I'll beat a dead horse until its rotted pulp

 

[randycat99]

And it's not catching on in any way with non business consumers.

I'd expect AOL to pull it off before M$ did- just my hunch.

 

[Megadrive1988]

I'm now thinking either

PS3-2005, Xbox2-2005

or

PS3-2006, Xbox2-2006

 

[Josiah]

If X-Box2 launches in H1 2005 (the earliest possible IMO) it should use R500 technology (as that's what will be in PCs at the time). In that's case it will beat PS3 to market by atleast a few months (PS3 will be holiday season 2005 or later). OTOH look at what happened to Dreamcast, which had a HUGE lead on PS2. I think it would be wiser for MS to wait until 2006, and take advantage of better fabs to get some huge clock speeds.

 

[MrSingh]

Japanese public seeing it as an aggressive take over (which it likely would be) by a foreign company.

I don't think the Japanese public cares, there are many japanese companies being bought over (and controlled) by foreign companies. Nissan, Shinsei bank, etc. the company I work for owns >80 golf courses and a crap load of other property in Japan...

The Xenophobia is overblown.

 

[nonamer]

If X-Box2 launches in H1 2005 (the earliest possible IMO) it should use R500 technology (as that's what will be in PCs at the time). In that's case it will beat PS3 to market by atleast a few months (PS3 will be holiday season 2005 or later). OTOH look at what happened to Dreamcast, which had a HUGE lead on PS2. I think it would be wiser for MS to wait until 2006, and take advantage of better fabs to get some huge clock speeds.

I agree fully. Going with r500 tech that early will put them exactly in the Dreamcast/PS2 situation. Get a DX10 GPU for XB2 is my advice the MS.

 

[jvd]

If X-Box2 launches in H1 2005 (the earliest possible IMO) it should use R500 technology (as that's what will be in PCs at the time). In that's case it will beat PS3 to market by atleast a few months (PS3 will be holiday season 2005 or later). OTOH look at what happened to Dreamcast, which had a HUGE lead on PS2. I think it would be wiser for MS to wait until 2006, and take advantage of better fabs to get some huge clock speeds.

I agree fully. Going with r500 tech that early will put them exactly in the Dreamcast/PS2 situation. Get a DX10 GPU for XB2 is my advice the MS.

who's to say its not dx 10. Ms is the people who make dx. They of course would know what dx 10 chips are. Which should come out with longhorn in 2005. Ati beat dx 9 to the market by a few months so if they are under the fold with ms they might be able to beat dx 10 by more tha na few months

 

[Clashman]

Jesus. I didn't realize I was reading a year-old post. Half the stuff at the beginning of the post makes very little sense when taken in today's context. I was so damn confused.

Shows you what a year can change. :?

 

[epicstruggle]

Jesus. I didn't realize I was reading a year-old post. Half the stuff at the beginning of the post makes very little sense when taken in today's context. I was so damn confused.

Shows you what a year can change. :?

yeah, i started reading the thread, saw oct, thought it was fresh. Got to vince's thread when it dawned on me that something was way off. some of the post clearly dont make sense today.

later,
epic