MGS4 3D engine post mortem [translation needed]

[Shifty Geezer]

It has been since day one on a few titles. I'm sure if Konami request it, MS will allow it for this big title. The mandatory install would be for reused content, not all three discs, if they ever want the majority of XB360 owners to play it, as the 20 GB just plain hasn't got room factoring in everything else.

 

[Cheezdoodles]

Is it possible to require installs on 360 now?

Yes, there are a few titles out there that require HDD installs. There is no rule that doesn't allow it.

Wanted to write the same. But as far as the information goes, NXE will only offer a complete install, not an 'incomplete', won't it?

Is NXE new xbox experience or something?

You wouldn't need to use that feature, as it would have to be a mandatory installment once putting in the game disc, just like on the PS3. Those do not have to be complete.

 

[el_rika]

Yes, there are a few titles out there that require HDD installs. There is no rule that doesn't allow it.
.

Which games are those ?

I remember FFXI requiring an install on ps2. I think it does on Xbox as well.

 

[user542745831]

Is NXE new xbox experience or something?

Yes. It's roughly the new Xbox 360 update that comes on 19-Nov-2008 (or maybe even earlier according to this: http://forum.beyond3d.com/showpost.php?p=1229999&postcount=55 ).

 

[Brad Grenz]

Which games are those ?

I remember FFXI requiring an install on ps2. I think it does on Xbox as well.

Burnout requires an install for the online component, too, but I don't think there are any games that need an install for single player.

 

[catisfit]

It has been since day one on a few titles.

Yes, there are a few titles out there that require HDD installs. There is no rule that doesn't allow it.

I didn't know that. So there are titles which are completely unplayable on the Core/Arcade? Which ones? I knew that Burnout Paradise online needed the HDD but I didn't know there were games which had a mandatory install and therefore would not work at all on the Core/Arcade.

 

[JPT]

I didn't know that. So there are titles which are completely unplayable on the Core/Arcade? Which ones? I knew that Burnout Paradise online needed the HDD but I didn't know there were games which had a mandatory install and therefore would not work at all on the Core/Arcade.

I believe football manager was another one.

 

[catisfit]

I believe football manager was another one.

Thanks - the internet agrees with you

Well in that case they could take the same approach as the PS3 and install the common data, at the expense of the non-HDD owner. That still leaves them with the 33Gb into n*7Gb discs issue though.

Kojima wouldn't even entertain the idea of shrinking that 33Gb down under the 25Gb mark for the PS3 release, instead making MGS4 the first dual-layer blu-ray game release (with the added expense that entailed). But then it's highly unlikely that Kojima Productions would be the ones handling the port, so maybe another team would be much more ruthless in cutting the size down.

 

[Cheezdoodles]

Thanks - the internet agrees with you

Well in that case they could take the same approach as the PS3 and install the common data, at the expense of the non-HDD owner. That still leaves them with the 33Gb into n*7Gb discs issue though.

Kojima wouldn't even entertain the idea of shrinking that 33Gb down under the 25Gb mark for the PS3 release, instead making MGS4 the first dual-layer blu-ray game release (with the added expense that entailed). But then it's highly unlikely that Kojima Productions would be the ones handling the port, so maybe another team would be much more ruthless in cutting the size down.

Its 30gb total.

And 20gb of that is high quality audio + HD video, you could easily start compressing that down while still having acceptible quality.

Shouldn't really a problem to fit this into 3 discs if you'd want to.

 

[Boxercide]

Its 30gb total.

And 20gb of that is high quality audio + HD video, you could easily start compressing that down while still having acceptible quality.

Shouldn't really a problem to fit this into 3 discs if you'd want to.

Except that you're still making assumptions about what all the data is and how much compression you can do and still be "acceptable."

What if it turns out that the repeated data is 4 gigs? 6? 8? At 8, now it's too big for 360 discs. So you put the data to be copied onto the HDD on more than 1 disc? Well then you're adding even more discs.

Considering the vast majority of 360 users have no more than 13 gigs at their disposal and MS charges outrageous prices for HDDs, how is this game going to sell well enough to turn a good profit for konami? They have to pay people to code, compress, etc. And they will have to pay for millions of extra discs, if they expect to sell well. To say nothing of the poor user experience as people who have core/arcade units or other DLC on their HDDs.

And how do you split up acts? Or did you just plan on having random portions in the middle of acts to switch discs? That won't disrupt the experience much....

And think of the obvious (extra) embarassment for MS's PR about Blu-ray not being needed. Well if the game ships on 3/4/5/12 discs on 360 and only 1 on PS3, that's a pretty persuasive argument FOR Blu-Ray.

I'm just playing devil's advocate here. Please don't think I'm attacking. I just find that people can convince themselves something is simple when in actuality, it isn't nearly so.

 

[Schaden]

It wasn't a sham, it was simply running on more powerful hardware than what was in the final PS3.

The point is the developers knew the PS3 while having a higher clock frequency than NV70, 550mhz vs 430mhz, only possessed half the memory bandwidth and ROPs of a 7800GTX. The only graphics spec downgraded since the Tokyo Game Show was a modest 10% reduction in clock speed, 550mhz to 500mhz.

If the trailer pushed the 7800GTX beyond what they could thought could be accomplished with the RSX, which seems to be your point, that was deceptive.

 

[AlNom]

I don't suppose the early devkits had half the memory clock speed to simulate the final effective bandwidth, did they?

 

[Cheezdoodles]

Except that you're still making assumptions about what all the data is and how much compression you can do and still be "acceptable."

Are you suggesting that " demo.dat bgm.dat movie.dat vox.dat speech.dat" contains other things than audio and video? Please enlighten us if you can

I remember reading in some interview with Bethesda that Oblivion has about 40hours of audio (music + 14000 lines of dialoge). Going by that, Do you think the sound quality in Oblivion is bad? I think its more than good enough for a game.

Now, im rather sure that MGS4 does not have more than 40 hours of audio, and if it does, its not much more. Oblivion's audio takes up 2-3gb (50% of the game is audio!)

Considering that we KNOW that MGS4 has very high quality audio for a game, i dont see any problem with atleast halving the size of audio, and still keeping it at an acceptible level (since we know that there are games out there that have been hailed for their sound quality that have 40hours of audio compressed down to 2-3 gb's.).

That alone would leave us with little more than 20gb to spread out over a couple of DVD9's. 3 discs would hold that.

What if it turns out that the repeated data is 4 gigs? 6? 8? At 8, now it's too big for 360 discs

Um... We pretty much know that audio + video is around 20gb. MGO is 2.2 gb. That leaves us with 8gb of data left on the disc..

Out of this, certainly the level dat'.s wouldn't have to be repeated, if we start subtracting those, the amount of "repeated" data thats possible, starts getting rather low.

And they will have to pay for millions of extra discs, if they expect to sell well

Didn't carmack refute this already? Saying that they dont pay a royality per disc? I cba to read through the rage thread, but there was something about that there.

And how do you split up acts? Or did you just plan on having random portions in the middle of acts to switch discs? That won't disrupt the experience much....

Why would we have to split up the acts any differently than on the PS3? On the PS3 you have to install every time you change an act i dont see how that is less distruptive than changing a disc every act.

Aspecially since there is no hard cap of how much you can install. (There is on the PS3 (5gb i think), which is why MGS4 has to install for every act.)

Of course the only problem is if one of the acts needs abnormally much audio or video (but then again, if we compress this it should not be a problem)

And think of the obvious (extra) embarassment for MS's PR about Blu-ray not being needed. Well if the game ships on 3/4/5/12 discs on 360 and only 1 on PS3, that's a pretty persuasive argument FOR Blu-Ray.

There are xbox games out there that require multiple discs. Now, i dunno about you, but multiple discs, does not imply that Bluray is needed. It just means that DVD9 is not enough to hold all the data that some developers would like to use.


If we made it into 5 discs (hey 1 for each act) MGS4 would fit NO PROBLEM, as 5*6.8gb= 34gb (obviously a problem here is that one act might need more than 6.8gb, but an install should solve that problem...)

Hey, they could also have installed everything that needs to be installed in one go, thus you only have to switch discs between acts, i would probably take that over having to wait 3-5 minutes to install, every time you finish an act or want to load a saved game file from another act.

(Tbh, im baffled as to why Kojima has a "please insert disc 2" joke in MGS4, considering that his game needs to install every act, because frankly, switching discs is less distrubtive than having to watch Snake smoke cig's and looking at a progression bar for 3-5 min every act)

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Except that you're still making assumptions about what all the data is and how much compression you can do and still be "acceptable."

It's not assumptions, but speculations. We're refering to the disc contents here, making educated guesses, filling in the blanks with research where we can, and finding logical answers. My bet is 3 discs, possibly with a mandatory install of 5 GBs tops.

 

[Boxercide]

I actually do think all the audio in Oblivion is bad. And is there really that much dialog? It's the same lines by the same actors over and over. And you're still dancing around the compress what and how much question. What you're doing is just making assumptions and stating them as if they are fact.

As far as I know, the royalty can be waived (and in this case, almost assuredly would). But you still have to pay to buy all those discs and press them, etc.

I think there is less repeated data than you think. You need ALL textures readily available because you can save patterns for recall at any time. Well, all textures that Snake can assume. So now let's say you have to install most of the game and then just have 1 play disc. Only again, the vast majority of 360 owners don't have much space to spare.

And are you gonna remove all references to playstation hardware (Snake uses a DS3 to control the MK.II/III, the switch discs comment, etc.)?

You most likely would have to split up acts differently because, again, you're moving around all this info but what if you get the first level and half the second on one disc? You're imagining a perfect world where whole chapters fit on discs perfectly in just the right way because you're arguing the "pro" side.

Now don't take offense, but your argument boils down to: We can just compress everything more with no/"acceptable" quality loss so no worries.

As for the multi disc games, there are a few, but very few, because of the extra charge. ID still says they scaled back and altered how the Rage game world operates because of the DVD space limits. And it is still coming on 2 discs for 360.

 

[Boxercide]

It's not assumptions, but speculations. We're refering to the disc contents here, making educated guesses, filling in the blanks with research where we can, and finding logical answers. My bet is 3 discs, possibly with a mandatory install of 5 GBs tops.

That's nearly half the available space on most users' HDDs. So now you've made a choice between 1 game or all the rest of the games and DLC somebody has.

And I know stuff can be downloaded again, but that's not the answer either. Especially not with the limits a lot of people face. Especially after Comcast's new BS rule.

 

[Cheezdoodles]

I actually do think all the audio in Oblivion is bad. And is there really that much dialog? It's the same lines by the same actors over and over.

Okay, you think the audio quality is bad, i think its adequate, all reviews i have read, think its good or even great. We are all entitled to an opinion.

And you're still dancing around the compress what and how much question. What you're doing is just making assumptions and stating them as if they are fact.

Huh? How is "i dont see any problem with atleast halving the size of audio, and still keeping it at an acceptible level" stating a fact? What it says is that i dont see a problem with halving it..

Your not playing devils avocate at this point, your reading things that are not there.

Its obvious that me and shifty are SPECULATING. We have all the contents of the MGS4 disc, we know what some of the files are, and we are trying to make logical guesses based on the info we have. If you have anything to ADD to this, PLEASE DO.

But dont say stuff like "i think there is less repeated data than you think" without any explanation, that adds nothing to this discussion. State WHY! you think so.

i think there is less repeated data than you think

I find it amazing that you think there is less repeated data than i think, when i haven't said how much i think there is.
(i have only refuted your BS numbers of 6 and 8 gb's).

Tbh, many of your numbers are completely ridiculous, it would allmost see as you try to make things out worse than they are (12discs? 12 disc would hold ALL MGS4 content twice. )

As far as I know, the royalty can be waived (and in this case, almost assuredly would). But you still have to pay to buy all those discs and press them, etc.

DVD9 costs pennies these days. Pressing multiple discs will up the cost, true, but the actual cost of pressing discs is rather tiny.

You need ALL textures readily available because you can save patterns for recall at any time. Well, all textures that Snake can assume.

No you dont, you just need to store the textures that you save in snakes camo patterns to the HDD. Its obvious that you wouldn't need ALL the textures in the entire game avaliable in order to recall a camo pattern, you only need the relevant texture.

Besides, the texture data is a TINY portion of the game, AND its also the kind of data that you would install on your HDD for obvious reasons (like not having much texture pop-ins)

So now let's say you have to install most of the game and then just have 1 play disc. Only again, the vast majority of 360 owners don't have much space to spare.

Why do you say you have to install most of the game??? There is NOTHING that would imply this. Its completely unrealistic.

And are you gonna remove all references to playstation hardware (Snake uses a DS3 to control the MK.II/III, the switch discs comment, etc.)?

There are a few references to playstation hardware, its not like the game is build around it, taking those comments out (or swapping a DS3 to a x360 gamepad) its not exactly much work.

I dunno why you even bother to post this question, its obvious that if one would decide to port MGS4, this would not exactly be a big problem.

You most likely would have to split up acts differently because, again, you're moving around all this info but what if you get the first level and half the second on one disc? You're imagining a perfect world where whole chapters fit on discs perfectly in just the right way because you're arguing the "pro" side.

You know what, it doesn't seem like you even bother to read what we post. I adressed this.

Now don't take offense, but your argument boils down to: We can just compress everything more with no/"acceptable" quality loss so no worries.

My argument (and shifty's to) is that we can compress the 20gb of HIGH QUALITY AUDIO AND VIDEO down by alot. And this is perfectly true.

We can, there is nothing suggesting that we cannot compress it. Why couldn't we make the audio quality worse? We know it would be at an acceptible level, because there are TONS of games out there that have much much much worse audio and video quality than MGS4 that are getting great reviews (and no bad comments about audio. Hell many are hailed for having good audio\sound).

As for the multi disc games, there are a few, but very few, because of the extra charge.

No, there are few multidisc games, because your average game does not necessarily need more than a DVD9 in terms of space.


"Microsoft is not being dickheads," he said. "It was a simple kind of miscommunication. Microsoft does not charge a royalty per disc, but there is a cost of goods that goes along with manufacturing. "

However, Willits noted that the cost of manufacturing a third disc was not behind the decision to spread the game across two discs. Instead, the game's story structure was the decisive factor. The narrative Willits produced split well into two acts, and the company wasn't planning for enough content to justify a third.

Source

ID still says they scaled back and altered how the Rage game world operates because of the DVD space limits. And it is still coming on 2 discs for 360

What is your point?

 

[Shifty Geezer]

My argument (and shifty's to) is that we can compress the 20gb of HIGH QUALITY AUDIO AND VIDEO down by alot. And this is perfectly true.

I'll add here that we know people have been happy with inferior to DVD quality video for years, and <CD quality. The 3 GBs of video that we guess at can easily be reduced to SD res, higher compression. That's not going to affect sales, having a few rare adverts looking only as good as a DVD. The audio is more the unknown, as it depends on what level of compression is in use in MGS4 already. If it's 256 kbit, say, then Konami can drop that down to 128 kbit and still be respectable to most ears. If it's already highly compressed, there'll be less savings to be made. The number of sounds can be reduced too, losing all those iPod music tracks for example, and cutting down on sound effects.

The measure of acceptibility really comes down to Konami budgeting for discs. If they pick 3 discs, MGS4 will fit on 3 discs. If they pick 5, it'll fit on five. They'll scale it as needed, knowing the average Joe isn't that picky. I expect they'll want to keep texture res on par to avoid the most particular of cross-platform criticisms, and there's no clear reason not to, unless space really is that tight. The amount of duplicate data needed across discs probably isn't that much. Snake is a common element, so everything to do with him should be duped or installed. Same with the inventory, CODECS, Mk. II (Incidentally the video screen effect on the MkII was clever and all, but totally wrong. The screen was marked HD yet the pixels could be counted, and it was anything but! Surely they'd be using very fine OLED and the pixel effect was redundant? ) and probably Otacon. My 5 GB install was a 'safe bet' figure. What we know for sure is that if (when? ) Konami do a port, they will make it fit and work. They aren't going to say 'there's millions to be made on XB360, but because we're using BRD for PS3, it just can't happen. Shame.'

 

[Boxercide]

True, but what happens when all the potential 360 buyers know they're getting a gimped game?

Part of my point is MS won't allow it on their system because it would be so obviously a "shoddy port" in respect to lowered audio/video fidelity.

As for my point with respect to Rage: There is a limit to what can be put on each disc and at some point, they couldn't/wouldn't compress it any more.

Also, let's say for sake of argument that it costs Konami 5 cents per dvd (easy math). they press up 2 million copies of a 3 disc game. You've now upped your costs by at least $300k and you've had to go in and alter a lot of stuff (textures, reduced video res, whole portions of the audio eliminated/altered such as the switch discs convo, the DS3, etc) which takes time and costs money to pay programmers, and a major portion of the community knows you've had to gimp portions of the game and you have this giant install (minimum 10% of 20GB) and the majority of the fanbase will have already played it because it's been an exclusive franchise....

You can't see where I'm going? Plus, there will be people up in arms about paying full price, just like there are about Bioshock PS3.

It'd be different if they planned it all along as a multiplat, but I don't think they did. So for all that time and effort, i think the payoff wouldn't be that great.

Now if they're planning MGS5 as a multiplat from the beginning, that wouldn't surprise me in the slightest.

EDIT: You couldn't tell the "12 disc" crack was a purposeful exaggeration to illustrate that nobody here really knows for sure how many discs they'd need? I thought I was being quite transparent.

 

[Cheezdoodles]

True, but what happens when all the potential 360 buyers know they're getting a gimped game?

Nothing, just like PS3 owners have been buying inferior versions of multiplatform games for quite a while...

Part of my point is MS won't allow it on their system because it would be so obviously a "shoddy port" in respect to lowered audio/video fidelity.

1. I doubt the average gamer would notice the difference in audio, mostly due to the fact that the average gamer uses his build in TV speakers and not a proper sound system.

2. Its ridiculous to say that MS wont allow it on their system because it would be a "shoddy" port, when both MS and Sony allows shoddy ports and crappy games on their systems.

As for my point with respect to Rage: There is a limit to what can be put on each disc and at some point, they couldn't/wouldn't compress it any more.

We all know that compression has limits, (it also comes at a cost, of decompressing).

Why are you still talking about Rage? Rage is a different game, it does not have 66,7% of its disc(s) made up of audio and video. Some things are easier(and more "profitable") to compress than others.

You know how many hours of audio GTA4 has? you know how small the audio file is? Audio is the easiest thing by far to compress and still have decent results. And thankfully, 20gb of the game is audio so the job of making this fit onto a few DVD9's is not particularly hard due to that.

Now stop talking about rage, me and shifty are not morons, we know that compression have limits and our examples are NO WHERE NEAR the practical conmpression limits that one could have on sound.

Also, let's say for sake of argument that it costs Konami 5 cents per dvd (easy math). they press up 2 million copies of a 3 disc game. You've now upped your costs by at least $300k

No you haven't. If it was 1 disc, cost would be $100k right? 3 disc is $300k. So thats a 200k difference. So you have upped your cost by 200k by going 3 discs vs 1.

Now you factor in how much more a Bluray disc costs, and you will see that having 1 or 2 or 5 DVD9's is really pretty much irrelevant costs. I dunno how much printing costs, but i reckon this is largely irrelevant aswell considering how many copies some publishers print up for their games.

Your talking about 20 cents (thats with 5 dvd9's) of additional cost per game. A bluray disc probably costs more than that.

Surely you can see that the number of discs is largely irrelevant in the big picture.

and you've had to go in and alter a lot of stuff (textures, reduced video res, whole portions of the audio eliminated/altered such as the switch discs convo, the DS3, etc) which takes time and costs money to pay programmers,

1. You would not have to alter textures.
2. Reducing video resolution takes 1 minute of human work, and a little bit more (depending on the size of the video) of computer work.
3. Taking out 4 PS3 related comments is not exactly a lot of work...

4. Why on earth are you bringing this up?

PORTING ALLWAYS COSTS MONEY, just like making a game costs money (shock?)

and a major portion of the community knows you've had to gimp portions of the game

A major portion of the community??? Lol, thats just BS. You know how few people read this kind of technical stuff compared to how many that actually play the games?

and you have this giant install (minimum 10% of 20GB)

So what? You have a giant install on the PS3 aswell (5gb) and this is on a system that installs the majority of all games (so space should actually be more scarce, even if the average PS3 has 40gb of space)

and the majority of the fanbase will have already played it because it's been an exclusive franchise....

MGS has been on varius platforms. Last generation, the Xbox and i think even the GC got a port of MGS.

It'd be different if they planned it all along as a multiplat, but I don't think they did. So for all that time and effort, i think the payoff wouldn't be that great.

Do you know how much it costs to develop a high budget game like MGS4? Easily $ 30-50 million.

Do you know how much it cost to port a game? No more than 5% of that. If even that.

All you need is to hire a couple coders (lets say we hire good coders, so they get $100k a year. 10 programmers would only run you a million a year, and 10 programmers is a lot to just port a game)

All the assets are allready there, and that is what costs the big bucks in a game, not the coding. (okay so you have to make a X360 gamepad instead of a DS3, thats not exactly much work...)

I like how you now suddenly are discussing a whole different aspect, trying to say that its not economically feasable to make this port, while the initial discussion was if it was possible to port MGS4 to X360 (not if it would make profits or not, but im sure it would)

EDIT: You couldn't tell the "12 disc" crack was a purposeful exaggeration to illustrate that nobody here really knows for sure how many discs they'd need? I thought I was being quite transparent.

No i couldn't tell, because the other number examples you used, are also way off. (8gb's of replicated data?? All the game data is not even that big.) (having to install allmost ALL the data.. etc) To me, it looked like your ignorant rather than somebody trying to purposefully exaggerate something.