MGS4 3D engine post mortem [translation needed]

[gongo]

http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/game/docs/20080912/cedec_mgs.htm

Found a link to lengthy presentation by Konami, resident japanese speaker care to translate? Did Konami really say PS3 was far weaker than what Sony promised them?

 

[jandlecack]

The article speaks mostly about the common issues like FP16-HDR. I couldn't find an explicit statement that is equal to what you're asking for, so no, they did not say that. They did say that the TGS 2005 hardware was different from what the finalized PS3 was, and that's why they had to build their graphics engine aiming at 2005 quality, which wasn't possible to achieve fully.

However, further down is something interesting. They call their realtime cutscenes "Polygon Demos". That's as good a confirmation you will get for downgraded gameplay models vs. cutscene models.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/game/docs/20080912/cedec_mgs.htm

Found a link to lengthy presentation by Konami, resident japanese speaker care to translate? Did Konami really say PS3 was far weaker than what Sony promised them?

Who's saying that? Kojima was quoted as saying as such, but then he rebuked the media for misunderstanding his comment. There's a thread here discussing it somewhere. Has someone else involved in MGS4 remarked about the specs?

 

[Neb]

I thought these where interesting parts. Spelling? blaim babelfish...

"With “MGS4” beginning adoption HDR rendering. But FP16 just could not be used"

"The HDR rendering due to FP16 release was done in 2005, “Half-Life 2: The technology which with Lost Coast” is actualized. As for “Half-Life 2”, regarding the latest related session it talked that it is the title which produces big effect on the development “of MGS4”, but with “MGS4” you just could not use the HDR rendering due to FP16, you suffer hardship tremendously."

In “MGS4”, technique of lighting differs respectively in the character and the background, environmental light, the rim light/write and the point light source etc are adopted BASIC in addition to parallel light, furthermore completely grill in the background and environmental light of type and, it is “MGS4” individual approach, it talked that technique of “separated pre- lighting” is used."

"The approach of general FP16 could not use the HDR rendering of MGS4”, but for the sake of, it does combining three techniques in HDR encoding rendering, blend buffer rendering and reduction buffer rendering As for the environmental light “of MGS4” the hemispherical light/write is adopted."

 

[FirewalkR]

Of course the PS3 is far weaker than what was promised. Just look at the 2005 real-time trailer at 60fps. I die a little every time I watch it thinking of the kind of visuals we could have had this generation. Yield problems and lots of new tech made that impossible, unfortunately.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Of course the PS3 is far weaker than what was promised.

The only thing weaker from any realtime trailer is a 10% drop in GPU and VRAM, not really enough to make the difference from 'Okay' to 'Gorgeous'.

Just look at the 2005 real-time trailer at 60fps...

Seems ironic, doesn't it? They actually had that fidelity up and running in realtime on the PS3 hardware. Unless that was all a sham in the end.

 

[jandlecack]

Drop in VRAM? Do you mean the memory clock or was the PS3 meant to have more VRAM?

Also, I very much doubt the trailer we speak about is that far off from the real-time cutscenes in the final game. I'll give it some more post processing, but I feel most of that could be pulled off in the final game.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

VRAM clock.

 

[Neb]

Also, I very much doubt the trailer we speak about is that far off from the real-time cutscenes in the final game. I'll give it some more post processing, but I feel most of that could be pulled off in the final game.

If they could they would have done it for the final, they couldnt. The assets etc was there, created but they cut it out for final.

Now I am not sure if it was back when the PS3 devkit had the Cell a 2.4GHz + 2x6800ultra or 2x7800GTX (I dont think RSX was finalised at that time).

 

[jandlecack]

RSX SLI would of course make a significant difference for specialized programming as such.

But the most glaring difference for me was not the graphics themselves, but the dust and dirt floating around in the environment of the trailer.

 

[FirewalkR]

The only thing weaker from any realtime trailer is a 10% drop in GPU and VRAM, not really enough to make the difference from 'Okay' to 'Gorgeous'.
Seems ironic, doesn't it? They actually had that fidelity up and running in realtime on the PS3 hardware. Unless that was all a sham in the end.

I should have said far weaker in terms of GPU of course. The Cell was running at a lower frequency in the Evaluation System and the way things were connected was different. However, the difference between the RSX and a 7800GTX with a 256 bit bus is more than that 10% drop. Keep in mind that they produced that trailer with little knowledge of the architecture. If the whole thing was real-time who knows what they could have done with more time.

Here's the original trailer at 60 fps for those who haven't seen it: http://www.kikizo.com/viewer/vidview_games.asp?games/metalgearsolid4_480p60_may06/kikizo_480p60_metalgearsolid4_hiquality_may06.wmv
Although there are HD versions at 30 fps, this (480p) is the best 60fps version I know of. Feel free to point me to a HD/60fps version.

And here's the link to the specs of the Eval System at the time: http://pc.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/2005/0722/kaigai02.pdf

Btw, I realize you've seen this all before, Shifty, i'm linking just for those who haven't.

Regarding the possibility of being a sham, as you know they demonstrated at least part of the trailer running in real-time, but they didn't show the whole thing and there are far more demanding parts in the trailer, so who knows?

 

[jandlecack]

That PDF doesn't display any readable text/letters for me. Care to provide a working one, I'm rather interested in it.

 

[FirewalkR]

That PDF doesn't display any readable text/letters for me. Care to provide a working one, I'm rather interested in it.

If you're referring to the Evaluation System specs, it works for me every time. Could be a text encoding issue? It has some japanese characters...

Edit: Despite all this specs talk, they did a brilliant job with the resources at hand, and I would like to read the article in something better than Google's translation, so if some kind soul feels like cleaning it (I have no idea what some of the translated sentences actually mean), I'm sure lots of people here would appreciate it.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

If they could they would have done it for the final, they couldnt. The assets etc was there, created but they cut it out for final.

Now I am not sure if it was back when the PS3 devkit had the Cell a 2.4GHz + 2x6800ultra or 2x7800GTX (I dont think RSX was finalised at that time).

They never had SLI'd 7800's. T'was a single 7800GTX. The 7800 had the wider bus, but devs knew that the PS3 would have a 128 bit bus by then, didn't they? They knew the target specs for BW as a 550 MHz GPU, 256 MB GDDR3 @ 700 MHz (as announced E3 05) and if they overstepped those specs by a significant margin, that was their fault. Or...the RSX is a totally gimped dog of a GPU and the 7800GTX totally eclipses its performance. That doesn't really tally with what we know though.

I think Kojima said it best, and unless anyone has concrete comments to the contrary, I imagine that the studios postiion was that they aimed too high, not that they were promised more than they got.

 

[FirewalkR]

RSX SLI would of course make a significant difference for specialized programming as such.

But the most glaring difference for me was not the graphics themselves, but the dust and dirt floating around in the environment of the trailer.

Indeed, and my favorite part of the trailer is right at the beginning, with the PMC soldier's viewpoint. Amazing environmental effects and grenade explosions, smoke etc.

What are the odds that we'll see that level of effects during this generation of consoles, after devs learn the ins and outs of both platforms?

(in fact, I'd like to ask exactly why that kind of effects is so expensive, but I fear I'm already OT'ing this thread too much. Perhaps I should read something about alpha blending and stuff)

 

[Cheezdoodles]

If they could they would have done it for the final, they couldnt. The assets etc was there, created but they cut it out for final.

Now I am not sure if it was back when the PS3 devkit had the Cell a 2.4GHz + 2x6800ultra or 2x7800GTX (I dont think RSX was finalised at that time).

Cell @2.4 ghz + 7800GTX (never was SLI) 1gb total ram.

 

[RudeCurve]

It's ironic that when Kojima first showed the MGS4 tech demo he openly pimped the CELL in his game (CELL powered Otacon robot). Now the game is out with downgraded everything even with a more powerful final CELL chip. What happened to the hair and mustache physics for each individual strand? What happened to the polygons?

I hope he has learned his lesson and to stop talking big when PS4 arrives.

 

[jandlecack]

It's ironic that when Kojima first showed the MGS4 tech demo he openly pimped the CELL in his game (CELL powered Otacon robot). Now the game is out with downgraded everything even with a more powerful final CELL chip. What happened to the hair and mustache physics for each individual strand? What happened to the polygons?

I hope he has learned his lesson and to stop talking big when PS4 arrives.

Not really the Cell's fault. I'm sure 6 SPEs are perfectly fine to achieve this kind of physics detail and advancement. Look at the facial animation in Heavy Rain, even that 3 year old tech-demo for instance. I think that outdoes what they showed at that MGS4 tech demo. Which is leaving me with the conclusion that Japanese devs, again, have not figured out the PS3 just yet. Doubt Square-Enix have either, unless we're talking artstyle.

Indeed, and my favorite part of the trailer is right at the beginning, with the PMC soldier's viewpoint. Amazing environmental effects and grenade explosions, smoke etc.

What are the odds that we'll see that level of effects during this generation of consoles, after devs learn the ins and outs of both platforms?

(in fact, I'd like to ask exactly why that kind of effects is so expensive, but I fear I'm already OT'ing this thread too much. Perhaps I should read something about alpha blending and stuff)

I just think that MGS4 gameplay isn't the right place for so much effects fidelity - it's a stealth action game after all. And I do remember some dust flying around in some middle eastern areas. I don't even think it's a big strain on the hardware, I mean it doesn't need to be 5000 polygons per sandcorn to look good, if you catch my drift. Also, for the kind of effects you're looking for, keep your eyes peeled for Killzone 2. It has some incredible smoke and dirt effects fidelity even in the alpha/beta footage we've only seen so far.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Indeed, and my favorite part of the trailer is right at the beginning, with the PMC soldier's viewpoint. Amazing environmental effects and grenade explosions, smoke etc.

I don't remember the trailer, ought to give it another look, but KZ2's doing very well on the explosion and smoke front!

 

[jandlecack]

Haha. Two morons share one trail of thought huh