Metal Gear Solid 4 post:#1067

[betan]

In the options you need to turn on something I forget what its called but it keeps the fps mode so hitting L1 will auto go to fps.

I think it is called something like "remember FPS view", but
FPS (zoom) view for all kinds of shooting is clearly impractical and should only be limited to precision aiming.

BTW, I maxed the FPS camera sensitivity, walking without weapon in FPS view, or alternatively with SolidEye's triangle mode is pretty good, and highly recommended.

 

[Cheezdoodles]

Triangle isn't aim, it's zoom. You can shoot in the centre of the screen with the handy circle - what i do for nearly all of the guns, I only use triangle to aim far away. You can also put on auto-aim if you find it that hard.
.

I dont get your posts sometimes. You seem to be thinking that we are retards.
We know you can aim with the circle.

Triangle is NOT zoom. Its ironsights, if the weapon is scoped, that means your gonna watch through a scope and get zoom..

Sneaking doesn't mean not killing. Sneaking means not being spotted. It means sniping, it means using your octocamo, it means using your box, it means hiding behind corners, it means crawling, it means headshots, it means silencers, it means tranquilising, it means killing without being spotted.

We know. We know you can sneak and shoot. We all got the same game. We know what you can do and cannot do.

This game gets ridiculusly easy to play as a stealth game if you decide to take out enemies, with tranquilizer or real weapons. Even on big boss hard. Octocamo effectively makes this game the easiest stealth game i have ever played.

If your patient enough you can easily go through the game without having any alarms go off. I for one dont have the time to reload the game if i sound an alert, so im just gonna kill whoever is alerted and get on with it..

 

[Cheezdoodles]

BTW, I maxed the FPS camera sensitivity, walking without weapon in FPS view, or alternatively with SolidEye's triangle mode is pretty good, and highly recommended.

Camera sens in this game is to slow imo, i max everything but 10\10 sens in this game is like 5\10 sens in CoD4 =\

 

[Shifty Geezer]

L1 aim R1 shoot, like CoD4, Uncharted, RE4 (IIRC), and possibly one of the RCF modes.

If you're walking around in COD4, Uncharted, Resistance and such, and you see a bad-guy right in your cross-hair/dot/centre screen, what button(s) do you have to press to shoot at that bad-guy?

 

[patsu]

I started of being super careful and sneaking all the way through on level 1. All that got me was having to fight Liquid's personal guards when you meet up with Fox Hound.

Yeah... I was super careful at first too, but it wore out my patience and eyes for very little reward (killing small fries). I think the best way to play the game is to be calm but not overly strained. The best paths are usually not too difficult to execute. e.g., At first I didn't think Act 5 first stage can be done via stealth but I found out the (easy) way from GAF.

Then at the start of Act 2, they really emphasize the importance of helping the rebels so while I took a sneaky path to get high ground advantage, the end result was still killing.

That's because of your weapon choice (and sometimes will power). It is extremely tempting (for me anyway) to blow up a tank in the middle of a battlefield. I put everyone to sleep but couldn't let the tank go, so I stood up and fired an RPG into it >_<

In most levels, you should be able to avoid killing if you make a stand.
But I agree the weapons encourage killings (Just look at the freaking bullet types).

Then no sneaking past the laughing boss (btw, nothing that easy should be considered a boss!) Then you're machine gunning the cow sounding machines in Drebin tank. No "sneaking" there. Then you're at the market and running through past them no sneaking there. And in the end you have to take one of them down but in reality you don't. Do a roll while you're running and you'll end up on the other side and the Raiden cutscene starts. More like a glitch vs sneaking.

Yeah, in that scene, you don't have to destroy any Gekko. Just run past them like what Otacon mentioned. I was able to do so in my first run while they were distracted by other folks. In my second run, one of the Gekkos decided to stick to me.

Laughing Octopus was easy (but interesting) for my first run. In my second run, I tried to experiment more and got owned by her. As long as one stays alert and doesn't get caught by her attacks, defeating her is easy.

If they really wanted to emphasize on sneaking, they should have limited the ammo and gun on the battlefiled. Make you go through places without fighting and spread out the check points thus with limited ammo you have no choice but to sneak. As you stated, there are a TON of weapons and customizations. It's very clear that Kojma saw the intense popularity of shooters and catered accordingly. Yes, you can play it as a sneaking game but it very much encourages you to gun it out. It's nice to have options and really, all said and done it'll help sales.

I believe they made it flexible for (i) people with varying skills and preferences, (ii) replayability, and (iii) uniqueness (No where to hide stealth theme). I think it's better this way because once I figured out the optimal path, it's economical to just follow the same route every time during replay. The weapon choice and other gameplay options (seduction ?) at least give me more reasons to go back and play differently. The weapons also have custom behaviour (e.g., Snake will utter war cry when firing M60 over an extended period, Vamp will burn and lose all his stamina when hit by the Solar Gun).

The weapons are also used for MGO.

 

[RobertR1]

Camera sens in this game is to slow imo, i max everything but 10\10 sens in this game is like 5\10 sens in CoD4 =\

There's a drag effect/resistance I noticed on the guns when you're turning also. It'd be like someone holding your gun while you try to pull it and then they release the resistance.

I also wish traditional blind fire was an option. I rather use the L1 to bring up the sights but use R1 on it's own just for blind fire when I'm equipped with a weapon. In close spaces it'd be very helpful instead of hitting L1 and having to toggle between the options.

 

[betan]

Camera sens in this game is to slow imo, i max everything but 10\10 sens in this game is like 5\10 sens in CoD4 =\

True for FPS and aim cameras, but not the TPcamera which makes up for the rest in my opinion, especially in MGO where you can quickly check around the environment, even target the others fast.

If you're walking around in COD4, Uncharted, Resistance and such, and you see a bad-guy right in your cross-hair/dot/centre screen, what button(s) do you have to press to shoot at that bad-guy?

You asked.

For Uncharted which is the only TPS there, I use L1 and R1 exactly like MGS4.
For FPS I generally use only R1, but CoD4 has autoaim on L1 (or L2?) so it's more often than not Lx+Rx. Only Rx when enemy is close enough.

Unfortunately my favorite shooter Resistance's zoom (R3) camera transition is not smooth like CoD4, so I rarely use it besides precision shooting.

 

[Cornsnake]

Stealth for me is not killing anyone or using the tranquillisers. The previous games where about this. But not MGS 4 as suddenly the game becomes far more difficult if you do. In MGS 2 you only got a tranquilliser gun if you played on easy.

The time I like to start killing enemies is in the parts that are made for it. Like the fisrt time you meet the Frogs or the chases.

I dont think the game rewards you more if you use stealth. Most things need Drebin points and you may get more at the end of an act by using stealth, but this doesn't measure up to the amount you get by collecting gun from dead enemies. And if you kill everyone its easier to search an area for hidden items.

 

[RobertR1]

Stealth for me is not killing anyone or using the tranquillisers. The previous games where about this. But not MGS 4 as suddenly the game becomes far more difficult if you do. In MGS 2 you only got a tranquilliser gun if you played on easy.

The time I like to start killing enemies is in the parts that are made for it. Like the fisrt time you meet the Frogs or the chases.

I dont think the game rewards you more if you use stealth. Most things need Drebin points and you may get more at the end of an act by using stealth, but this doesn't measure up to the amount you get by collecting gun from dead enemies. And if you kill everyone its easier to search an area for hidden items.

Also I shake down all the corpses and they all drop items. Often ammo and thanks to that, my ammo is always stacked. I could write "Old Snake" on a wall with bullets and still have plenty left over :smile:

 

[Shifty Geezer]

You asked.

For Uncharted which is the only TPS there, I use L1 and R1 exactly like MGS4...

But you don't have to. If you pop over a wall and there's a bad-guy there, you can just press R1 and shoot, and hit them. AFAIK MGS4 stands alone in requiring two button presses to fire, and in not having R1 as 'pull gun trigger' and L1 as 'look down sights', whether that look down sights is a first-person gun target or an over-the-shoulder view. Don't you think it would be better to have R1 as shoot and L1 as first-person targeting, with CQC either as a context-sensitive R1 action based on proximity to an unaware enemy, or mapped to a different button?

 

[Cornsnake]

You dont need to kill them for that. Just sneak up behind them and aim your gun at them. Snake will automatically tell them to hold their hands up, and they should drop some items.

 

[betan]

I dont think the game rewards you more if you use stealth. Most things need Drebin points and you may get more at the end of an act by using stealth, but this doesn't measure up to the amount you get by collecting gun from dead enemies. And if you kill everyone its easier to search an area for hidden items.

The game rewards you for not killing, for example the Frog loot is limited to a single P90 if you kill them instantly. Most importantly the game gives you the bandana for not killing, so you can use Javelin or any other dooms day weapon without caring about Drebin points any more.

The reward for stealth is less explicit, but should be apparent to anyone who plays on hard or extreme.

 

[betan]

But you don't have to. If you pop over a wall and there's a bad-guy there, you can just press R1 and shoot, and hit them. AFAIK MGS4 stands alone in requiring two button presses to fire, and in not having R1 as 'pull gun trigger' and L1 as 'look down sights', whether that look down sights is a first-person gun target or an over-the-shoulder view. Don't you think it would be better to have R1 as shoot and L1 as first-person targeting, with CQC either as a context-sensitive R1 action based on proximity to an unaware enemy, or mapped to a different button?

L1 for over the shoulder aim is right (and obvious) decision in my opinion, like many other free camera TPSs.
I think proximity based R1 could be nice but it would make CQC even simpler, so at least for MGO I'm glad with the current setup.

My only complain is about reload button since I don't (actually cannot) use autoaim at all.

 

[djskribbles]

This game gets ridiculusly easy to play as a stealth game if you decide to take out enemies, with tranquilizer or real weapons. Even on big boss hard. Octocamo effectively makes this game the easiest stealth game i have ever played.

If your patient enough you can easily go through the game without having any alarms go off. I for one dont have the time to reload the game if i sound an alert, so im just gonna kill whoever is alerted and get on with it..

not everyone is as good at video games as you, especially stealth games. Kojima probably wanted to make the game more appealing to as many people as possible, as the stealth genre has a limited crowd, and we all know how popular shooters are. i think MGS4 is a perfect mix of stealth and action. personally, as someone who is not a big fan of pure stealth games, i had difficulty in some parts even on Solid Normal mode. fans of pure stealth games may find it easy, but i found it to be just right.

 

[deepbrown]

I dont get your posts sometimes. You seem to be thinking that we are retards.
We know you can aim with the circle.

Triangle is NOT zoom. Its ironsights, if the weapon is scoped, that means your gonna watch through a scope and get zoom..



We know. We know you can sneak and shoot. We all got the same game. We know what you can do and cannot do.

This game gets ridiculusly easy to play as a stealth game if you decide to take out enemies, with tranquilizer or real weapons. Even on big boss hard. Octocamo effectively makes this game the easiest stealth game i have ever played.

If your patient enough you can easily go through the game without having any alarms go off. I for one dont have the time to reload the game if i sound an alert, so im just gonna kill whoever is alerted and get on with it..

Triangle is zoom for me, as I only use it on weapons with a scope - I don't find it has any advantage otherwise.

He said "it all ends up in killing" in that area, implying that the only option was to kill them all guns blazing. You can play stealthfully and kill them all - that is why I was being so descriptive to make it perfectly lucid.

 

[Cheezdoodles]

L1 for over the shoulder aim is right (and obvious) decision in my opinion, like many other free camera TPSs.

I think the most obvious solution (as in most if not all good third person games i have played) would be to have an crosshair as long as you held a weapon (or like in cod, if you stand still) then have L1 for ironsights\thirdperson aiming whatever someone wants, and have R1 firing no matter what.

And then just map the melee button to something else. The controls aren't as intuitive as many good games. It feels clunky and complicated sometimes. Then again i guess thats all about experience. I haven't played any games with very similar controls to MGS4 so i guess thats why it feels so akward.

My only complain is about reload button since I don't (actually cannot) use autoaim at all.

Isn't the reload button circle?

Anyways, i dont have any trouble reloading, i can reload whenever i want, i do however have auto aim disabled in the options menu.

Or is the problem something else?

 

[obonicus]

I think the most obvious solution (as in most if not all good third person games i have played) would be to have an crosshair as long as you held a weapon (or like in cod, if you stand still) then have L1 for ironsights\thirdperson aiming whatever someone wants, and have R1 firing no matter what.

And then just map the melee button to something else. The controls aren't as intuitive as many good games. It feels clunky and complicated sometimes. Then again i guess thats all about experience. I haven't played any games with very similar controls to MGS4 so i guess thats why it feels so akward.

MGS3 used a special button for CQC and a button for firing, and it was a mess, control-wise. It may just have been layout, but having one button do more things does work better. Maybe placing the auto-aim button on the R2 menu rather than square button would have been better, though, and mapping CQC to it.

Splinter Cell had a similar control scheme, in that you had a separate button to ready a weapon, and only then you could shoot. You didn't have to hold any buttons down, but you also couldn't shoot from the hip. (But then Splinter Cell's shooting mechanism was terrible, probably to increase the game's difficulty, so it's not a model ANYONE should imitate.)

 

[betan]

I think the most obvious solution (as in most if not all good third person games i have played) would be to have an crosshair as long as you held a weapon (or like in cod, if you stand still) then have L1 for ironsights\thirdperson aiming whatever someone wants, and have R1 firing no matter what.

I'm trying to remember good shooters like that, please feel free to add examples.

Gears and Lost Planet didn't have free camera with respect to the player, unlike MGS4 Uncharted and RE4.

And the last three all have the same aiming as I said before (RE4 used R1 and X or something like that). Not that I think RE4 is a good shooter, but many considers it best game ever for some reason.

SC was similar too if memory serves.

Ratchet too uses similar over the shoulder aiming but of course it has a single button shooting with sticky autoaim, being a platformer and all.

My point is, if you played Uncharted, RE4, SC, or even CoD4, L1 R1 shooting is what you do most of the time (maybe with a different layout).

Isn't the reload button circle?

Yes it is

Anyways, i dont have any trouble reloading, i can reload whenever i want, i do however have auto aim disabled in the options menu.

Or is the problem something else?

What I meant is I'm used to [] for reload, and it's closer to the right stick than O thus more convenient for me especially since I don't use autoaim either (which is what [] is mapped to in MGS4 and MGO).

 

[Cheezdoodles]

I'm trying to remember good shooters like that, please feel free to add examples.

GRAW (ONE BUTTON to fire, second button for aiming, allways shows xchair), Gears (not my personal favorite but.. some people think its good) one button to fire, second button for aiming, Rainbox six on PC (early games) freeaim in third person, fire with one button, aim with other, list goes on and on.

Gears and Lost Planet didn't have free camera with respect to the player, unlike MGS4 Uncharted and RE4.

And the last three all have the same aiming as I said before (RE4 used R1 and X or something like that).

But, Gears of war did allow you to shoot at the press of ONE BUTTON only. This is the issue here. Having to press both is inconvinient (having to press 3 buttons to get to ironsights is very inconvinient!!!). I didnt think specifically about freecamera..

My point is, if you played Uncharted, RE4, SC, or even CoD4, L1 R1 shooting is what you do most of the time (maybe with a different layout).

Actually the system in CoD is completely different. You shoot by pressing the trigger mapped button, and if you want to use ironsights you press the other button. In MGS4 you need to press down L1 no prior to shooting which is shifty's point. And in MGS4 you have to press L1, R1 AND /_\ to get to ironsights. Why the hell does he keep his hand on the trigger if i cannot shoot instantly?

Putting SC in here i disagree to, because the game really tries to make shooting as hard as possible in order to up the game difficulity. It doesn't encourage shooting at all and you get like 20 bullets for each mission (no picking up weapons).. I got uncharted but i dont remember if you could shoot by just pressing R1 or not, however i feel that uncharteds aiming was much better than MGS.. I cannot be arsed to put it on and try to remember those feelings..

Oh and dont tell me you can switch in the options to allways go to ironsights instantly. This is NOT good enough, you want the third person aiming option aswell, as you can see around corners and aim at the same time, which is a huge advantage.

(And lastly, CoD4, if your any good, most of the time you free aim in close quarters, this is because it allows faster movement and better visibility.. You only press one button to fire. Only if you need to take aim carefully (mid to long range) should you use ironsights. )

What I meant is I'm used to [] for reload, and it's closer to the right stick than O thus more convenient for me especially since I don't use autoaim either (which is what [] is mapped to in MGS4 and MGO).

Cant you just remap the keys in options? I havent really tried.

 

[betan]

GRAW (ONE BUTTON to fire, second button for aiming, allways shows xchair), Gears (not my personal favorite but.. some people think its good) one button to fire, second button for aiming, Rainbox six on PC (early games) freeaim in third person, fire with one button, aim with other, list goes on and on.

But, Gears of war did allow you to shoot at the press of ONE BUTTON only. This is the issue here. Having to press both is inconvinient (having to press 3 buttons to get to ironsights is very inconvinient!!!). I didnt think specifically about freecamera..

Again, it's about the freecamera TP shooters which GRAW and Gears don't really belong to.
Whether it's necessary or not is another discussion, but if we are going to discuss we should start with discussing "benefits" of third person view with FPS like controls.
For what's worth I like GRAW 2 and R6V cover controls best.

Actually the system in CoD is completely different. You shoot by pressing the trigger mapped button, and if you want to use ironsights you press the other button.

Naturally I believe, I'm familiar with both games' controls.
I'll come back to CoD4 later though.

In MGS4 you need to press down L1 no prior to shooting which is shifty's point. And in MGS4 you have to press L1, R1 AND /_\ to get to ironsights. Why the hell does he keep his hand on the trigger if i cannot shoot instantly?

I may have been miscommunicating myself, but from the beginning I was trying to point out that many other games use similar mechanics.
That said, I personally like free camera as much as good old FPS camera, and I really don't mind not having an awkward crosshair which could maybe work for limited camera angles and states.
Of course, for MGS4, Uncharted + CQC mix like Shifty was suggesting could work and I guess could make many people happy, but once again I wouldn't want that for MGO.

Putting SC in here i disagree to, because the game really tries to make shooting as hard as possible in order to up the game difficulity. It doesn't encourage shooting at all and you get like 20 bullets for each mission (no picking up weapons)..

Well at least, you think it works for SC.

I got uncharted but i dont remember if you could shoot by just pressing R1 or not, however i feel that uncharteds aiming was much better than MGS.. I cannot be arsed to put it on and try to remember those feelings..

As I said, Uncharted allows R1 shooting without aiming but without crosshair and any reasonable accuracy. So it's only useful in Close Quarters Combat anyway.

Oh and dont tell me you can switch in the options to allways go to ironsights instantly. This is NOT good enough, you want the third person aiming option aswell, as you can see around corners and aim at the same time, which is a huge advantage.

(Once again) I don't get it, in MGS4 ironsight is not practical for heated gun battles, it's slow and has very low visibility. Over the shoulder works perfect for those. So, the situations you need it are the ones that requires higher precision and some form of stealthiness. It's not like you need to switch to FPS instantly (save maybe Crying Wolf battle if you insist on using the sniper rifle)

(And lastly, CoD4, if your any good, most of the time you free aim in close quarters, this is because it allows faster movement and better visibility.. You only press one button to fire. Only if you need to take aim carefully (mid to long range) should you use ironsights. )

Let me tell you what a couple of prestige runs taught me.
Most online players use Lx to aim and Rx afterwards. There are two main reasons for that.
First Lx has autoaim, second default over the hip accuracy is piece of crap (for online and I really dig that part of CoD4).
This is slow of course, and since dying is so quick in CoD4, smarter people get improved accuracy perk which helps over the hip shooting a lot especially for closer combat.
But best players still tap Lx once, since it autoaims without the delay.

Again, my point was how many games make players use Lx Rx shooting regularly. And CoD4 is particularly intersting example for that because it's an FPS, the FPS. (Other FPSs use Lx only for precision aiming, call it ironsight or zoom)

Cant you just remap the keys in options? I havent really tried.

Don't think so.