Metal Gear Solid 4 post:#1067

[NERO]

"To make a videogame that told a story that could only be told in a videogame." His first and foremost goal, he claims, was to "Use the medium," which is, as he put it, "inherently postmodern."
QUOTE]

Brilliant. Obscenely pretentious but brilliant.

The AI tangent of MGS2 is why it is my favorite game of the series. I hated all the bullsh** about Fortune and Vamp which, to be honest, is Soap Opera(ish), but the happenings toward the end of the game are mind blowing. I can't help but to use a word that I hate, but it is post-post-modern.

Spoiler

The naked Raiden chapter was mindblowing and I ocationally freaked out during some of it. I had no idea why for no damn reason the colonel was stuttering and only when his giberish started to get over-the-top did I start to get it. I also nearly threw my controller at the screen when fought 100 ninjas on an elevator (with Snake) and I received what appeared to be a gameover glitch. Why was their a Japanese model in my map screen!!!

Thanks for the interesting essay deepbrown.

 

[DigitalSoul]

As someone on GAF sums up MGS stories best: it has a interesting and surreal approach to drama, humor and sociopolitical commentary. Thats good way to look at it

I mean, its just all around good entertainment. When you play a MGS game, its best you go into S.O.D mode. You can't over analyze of take this stuff too seriously all the time.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

I'd say both takes on the MGS franchise are valid and subjective. The bits in MGS2 which deepbrown alludes to, the peculiar 'out of game experience' conversation, had us scratching our heads and wondering what the blazes it was all about. Whether you find MGS philosophically fascinating or pretentious drivel is subjective, just like the Matrix series of films. Any artwork will be met by different reactions, some of whom it resonates with and others who respond in quite the opposite way. I don't think there's anything to gain in trying to argue proof of whether an artwork is deep and enlightened or banally shallow.

 

[Nesh]

To me it doesn't just suck at the visual fidelity and artwork, even the story feels awfully cheesy down to those action movie rents you regret waisting money and time on.

But to me the visual style is unique and the plot rapes almost any other video game attempt, it is the only one title that takes gamers seriously, the only game that takes story beyond an excuse for a game setting and tries to passe messages that do not simply serve the purpose "gaming entertainment". MGS for me is the least cheesy of all the games released so far.

edit: I think for many it seems cheesy because they can not accept that an attempt to do this in videogames can be taken seriously

 

[NERO]

I agree with Geezer who is Shifty. The only thing that I will add is that MGS obviously succeeds at proving that game can be art simply by the polar reactions typed about it and the dedication of the respective reactionaries.

The breaking of the fourth wall brings me into the positive camp as I believe it is done subtly throughout the story and just as importantly the game mechanics. My pet peeves of the series include the seemingly unecessary operatic components (Fortune, Fortune, Fortune) and the super-atheletic Matrix moves executed at cutscenes that are unexecutable by the player.

 

[deepbrown]

I'd say both takes on the MGS franchise are valid and subjective. The bits in MGS2 which deepbrown alludes to, the peculiar 'out of game experience' conversation, had us scratching our heads and wondering what the blazes it was all about. Whether you find MGS philosophically fascinating or pretentious drivel is subjective, just like the Matrix series of films. Any artwork will be met by different reactions, some of whom it resonates with and others who respond in quite the opposite way. I don't think there's anything to gain in trying to argue proof of whether an artwork is deep and enlightened or banally shallow.

I think The Matrix series is pretentious drivel

My beef wasn't with whether someone likes it or not, my beef was him saying that the philosophical and political depth that I was looking forward to in MGS4, didn't actually exist in the original games.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Yes, but that's still subjective! I can point to plenty of Turner Prize winners that the judges think have philosophical and sociological depth to which I laugh and think them accidents at landfill sites. Whatever rationale the artisans present to explain the hidden depths of meaning in the artworks, even if logically presented arguments, IMO they're seeing something that isn't really there. It's too subjective a subject to really argue about IMO, especially in a console game thread! Perhaps the discussion should be moved to PM?

 

[deepbrown]

Yes, but that's still subjective! I can point to plenty of Turner Prize winners that the judges think have philosophical and sociological depth to which I laugh and think them accidents at landfill sites. Whatever rationale the artisans present to explain the hidden depths of meaning in the artworks, even if logically presented arguments, IMO they're seeing something that isn't really there. It's too subjective a subject to really argue about IMO, especially in a console game thread! Perhaps the discussion should be moved to PM?

Yes but Shifty - it's almost explicit in the game. I could easily read philosophy into something, but you'd have to give me more time. I'm not reading philosophy into it, the MGS series explores the philosophy itself - and makes it very clear. And the politics even more so - MGS isn't MGS without these things. SO in this case, it's not subjective. It could only be subjective in the same way that "grass is green" could be seen as subjective ie. that it being green to you depends on your personal observation

 

[NERO]

Ok... I guess deepbrown is talking about the implementation of philosophy in the story rather than the quality of said philosophy - I think.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

It could only be subjective in the same way that "grass is green"

The truth of that statement is itself is a philosophical question

 

[deepbrown]

The truth of that statement is itself is a philosophical question

I know

 

[deepbrown]

Ok... I guess deepbrown is talking about the implementation of philosophy in the story rather than the quality of said philosophy - I think.

Correct - and I personally think the philosophy is of high quality, since MGS2 attempts to use the medium itself to explore philosophical themes, rather than simply using the written word of previous philosophers. And using the medium itself means MGS2 doesn't only have philosophical themes, but is doing philosophy itself.

I shall say no more, as this "opinion" would need a bloody good exploration to make it a strong position.

 

[RenegadeRocks]

Lets change the topic now.I think MGS speaks differently to different people ! the first time I had put in MGS3 DVD in my ps2 , I didn't know anything about it.I didn't even know what it is , I had just bought it without knowing anything about it, and I can tell you honestly that I did not understand why the codec conversations were so long and winded?Why can't I play now? What ? more talking?! Then I ran into the game and couldn't accomplish anything and so, frustrated, I set the game aside and played God Of War.

A few months later , I popped the DVD in again, and this time approached the game patiently, and Voila ! it felt smooth as butter ! and by the time EVA showed up, I was in love with the game! The rest I have already said up there, in earlier posts!

So, these are 2 different views of the same game by the same person, me!

Thats why I say, MGS speaks differently to different people ! Leave each to his own!

I hope you started at the tanker (IMHO the best bit of the game)

Ya, the ship...I am feeling uncomfortable right now . If I had not played MGS3, I wouldn't have been able to play it, I think.Not much explaination about controls and CQC!
But, why did you ask about the tanker? Is there another way to start the game?Also, people keep talking about these VR missions. What are those? Do they happen later in the game ? or are they extra missions in the main menu?

Also, is there only one CQC move in MGS2, MGS3 had a lot of options. I tried but couldn't find anymore than the standard kick one.

 

[Cornsnake]

If you start MGS 2 you have to answer a few questions. Depending on your answers you either get to start as Snake on the tanker or later in the game as Raiden on the clean up facilitie. I believe you had to answer: I like MGS, to get the tanker.

The VR missions are extra missions that are separate for the main story. They came on an add-on disc you had to buy separately for MGS on PS but where included in the PC version. For MGS 2 they came with the re-release MGS 2 substance and MGS 3 with the re-release MGS 3 subsistance.

 

[NERO]

But, why did you ask about the tanker? Is there another way to start the game?Also, people keep talking about these VR missions. What are those? Do they happen later in the game ? or are they extra missions in the main menu?

Also, is there only one CQC move in MGS2, MGS3 had a lot of options. I tried but couldn't find anymore than the standard kick one.

The tanker is the only start to the game. All that I recommend is that you take your time with it and play with the codec channels (including harrassing those who speak to you on codec).

edit: I see Cornsnake reply and he's right, but if you want to play the complete game work the tanker.

All this talk of MGS2 is making me want to reply it, and play it differently.

 

[RenegadeRocks]

If you start MGS 2 you have to answer a few questions. Depending on your answers you either get to start as Snake on the tanker or later in the game as Raiden on the clean up facilitie. I believe you had to answer: I like MGS, to get the tanker.

The VR missions are extra missions that are separate for the main story. They came on an add-on disc you had to buy separately for MGS on PS but where included in the PC version. For MGS 2 they came with the re-release MGS 2 substance and MGS 3 with the re-release MGS 3 subsistance.

WHAT?!?!?!?! It never asked me anything!!! I selected new game and then there was this cutscene of Snake in Octocamo running on a bridge and falling into the tanker!!!!!
Is something wrong with my disc?!?!?
I have the MGS2:Sons of Liberty disc not Substance.......

 

[Nesh]

Thats weird. I have the same disk as yours but it showed me a menu with questions when I chose to start a new game.

No need to worry though since you got to play the tanker anyways

 

[RenegadeRocks]

Can it be coz I downloaded the iso, as I couldn't find the game anywhere so I finally downloaded and burnt it onto a disc. But the game runs fine! How can only one feature be missing !!!
I'll try to run the game again from the start tonight to chk. How can it be? I am sure I did not miss anyhting!

 

[Nesh]

I think you didnt. Just the screen with the questions most likely

 

[goonergaz]

I think you didnt. Just the screen with the questions most likely

yeah - the Qs were at the very start after selecting new game - maybe you accidently pressed the button twice? Either way you got the best bit

I'm tempted to play that bit again myself...I've just started MGS3 Subsistence myself...need to crack on or I'll not be ready for MGS4!!