*merge/rename* The Importance of an H.D.D. (e.g. caches, streaming etc)

If Lost Planet needs X amount of data in Y amount of time, and it can't do that from the BluRay drive on the PS3 (for whatever reason), then they have to put it somewhere that they can. Reworking the levels and assets so that they can stream in fast enough may not be practical, lessening quality may not be acceptable, optimising disk access may only get you so far.

But this is all besides the point really. If Sony make a console where you can install games to the hard drive then people shouldn't be surprised if games are made to be installed to the hard drive. Don't blame developers for using something that's made available to them. If you want to blame someone (and I don't), blame Sony for the system and for certifying games that use their system.

Loading data from a HDD is faster than loading data from a BluRay drive. This isn't the fault of Capcom's Framework Engine.

If the inconvenience is too much buy a 360 instead. Personally, I'd rather install than have to put with the 360's infuriating Hoover-drive (with bonus high-pitched whine).
 
O.K.

DMC4 has a 5gb install on the PS3 for "improved loading". The improved loading is minimal - and 5 gb is a lot for this improvement. Other games install much less (Heavenly Sword) and even some install nothing - Uncharted, and have NO loading. Since DMC4 is also porbably only around 7gb, 5 gb is a lot to install on the PS3.

Discuss (because I want to understand)
 
What are you the Chruch Lady? = "Could it be Sa-tan? Discuss it amongst yourselves."

Streaming is a relatively simple trick, requiring some advanced programming.
Because you need to do it in the background, before it is needed, thereby buffering the data for later use.
So that your streaming speeds can be that of the RAM and not the lower optical read limits.
By constantly filling up a cache in RAM and it is then read from RAM as needed.

Think of it as one of those ancient Asian water clocks.
Water flows at a relatively slow pace, filling a bucket from a hole based on a calculable or know rate of flow.
The buckets fulcrum/tipping point is towards the bottom of the bucket.
(It doesn't tip over when empty because base has been weighted to not tip until a certain point has been reached.)
However once the bucket is filled to a point, its water volume is dumped forth and empted at a greater rate than that at it was filled.
So, now you know how a water clock works. :LOL:

Seriously.
You have a buffer space in an area of RAM that you fill with data you know you will need.
Kind of like how when online video players don't play until the buffer fills to a certain point.
Then they start playing before they are full but complete filling before you finish watching the video.
Streaming from the disc works in the same way.
Start streaming into RAM before you need to see the data.
Then learn the timing and necessary buffering of things so that you can use it before all the data has been streamed, without having to stop for additional load times.

The problem with Capcom is how they have gone about using this idea.
While it is smart to place game data on the hard disk, it is not smart to stop and do a full install.
My opinion is that it is in fact idiotic to stop gamers in order to do a full install.
The people at Capcom are not idiots.
Unfortunately they haven't focused enough or consulted with the right people on how to do streaming for their games.
Part of the problem is that streaming is an anticipatory process. Not very difficult at all.
But whoever is in charge hasn't gotten used to creating automatic shader operations that initiate the streaming or loading of data effectively.
The other part of the problem is that Xbox360's DirectXNA API is still a better graphical API than OpenGL ES.
So developers on that platform can use smaller relatively low quality textures and then use pixel shader operations to tweak the quality or appearance of said textures.

So here is where the problem comes together.
In order to do a cross platform game and not set the gaming fanboys on another image quality rant, they worked to deliver similar image results on the PS3. This meant using larger textures. Larger textures equals a larger amount of data they need to stream and required a higher amount of bandwidth to do it in the same time.

Capcom could not figure out how to do sufficient streaming and buffering from the PS3's optical media to RAM and did not take the time to figure out a good caching algorithm for the HDD. So despite what Capcom claims about leading on the PS3, they only managed to use a previously developed streaming program from their Xbox360 games. Not a new working streaming strategy for the PS3. So instead of figuring out how to cache to the HDD and stream from there, they took the easy route and chose to do a full install to the HDD. Where from the gamers’ perspective this is both inconvenient and seems kind of lazy. Though I am modestly sure they tried a little. They must simply have felt they did not have enough time to F*** around trying to figure it out.

So far Capcom is the only company to install a game to the HDD before you could play it.
To be far they wanted to do it on both platforms. But they could not convince Microsoft to let them.
So where they had pop-in or distance draw-in on the Xbox360 they simply eliminated that issue/object on both platforms.
Ultimately this & Lost Planet are a back and forth cross-platform compromise that has inadvertently compromised their attempt at balance with a required install.

They should appeal to Sony and other game companies, then subcontract help with the issue rather than take the approach of doing a full install when there is more than enough time and space to stream the entire disk to HDD in the background. Create a permanent cache for art assets based on the statistical amount of occurrences. Such as the character, weapons, and most common textures. Average this across all scenes and you need maybe 2GB or up to the generous amount of 4GB, at most for no load times. They just haven't figured out how to do this.

Me am Genius, No? Yes! :cool:

Dear Developers.,
Every PS3 comes with an HDD, providing you with multiple times the bandwidth given by any optical media.
So please try to make better use of it than Capcom has done with Devil May Cry 4.

Sincerely,
FutureCTO
 
In order to do a cross platform game and not set the gaming fanboys on another image quality rant, they worked to deliver similar image results on the PS3. This meant using larger textures.

I'm almost scared to reply to this only to be hit with a 4000 word reply :) But here goes. You don't need larger textures on PS3 to get a similar visual result to the 360 version. The same size textures will work just fine.
 
I guess they did this because it made it easier to develop the game. No real reason to spend time on "streaming" within the constraints of a BD drive, were just gonna put everything on the HD.

Is this still going around? Read this thread!

I decided to post this question here, because there's talk about installing on the HDD to improve loading - and also talk of how it can be done without installing - Uncharted has "happened" since this thread started.
 
Is this still going around? Read this thread!

I decided to post this question here, because there's talk about installing on the HDD to improve loading - and also talk of how it can be done without installing - Uncharted has "happened" since this thread started.

Uhh? what do you mean?
 
The problem with Capcom is how they have gone about using this idea.
While it is smart to place game data on the hard disk, it is not smart to stop and do a full install.
My opinion is that it is in fact idiotic to stop gamers in order to do a full install.
The people at Capcom are not idiots.
Unfortunately they haven't focused enough or consulted with the right people on how to do streaming for their games.
Part of the problem is that streaming is an anticipatory process. Not very difficult at all.
But whoever is in charge hasn't gotten used to creating automatic shader operations that initiate the streaming or loading of data effectively.
The other part of the problem is that Xbox360's DirectXNA API is still a better graphical API than OpenGL ES.
So developers on that platform can use smaller relatively low quality textures and then use pixel shader operations to tweak the quality or appearance of said textures.

So here is where the problem comes together.
In order to do a cross platform game and not set the gaming fanboys on another image quality rant, they worked to deliver similar image results on the PS3. This meant using larger textures. Larger textures equals a larger amount of data they need to stream and required a higher amount of bandwidth to do it in the same time.

Capcom could not figure out how to do sufficient streaming and buffering from the PS3's optical media to RAM and did not take the time to figure out a good caching algorithm for the HDD. So despite what Capcom claims about leading on the PS3, they only managed to use a previously developed streaming program from their Xbox360 games. Not a new working streaming strategy for the PS3. So instead of figuring out how to cache to the HDD and stream from there, they took the easy route and chose to do a full install to the HDD. Where from the gamers’ perspective this is both inconvenient and seems kind of lazy. Though I am modestly sure they tried a little. They must simply have felt they did not have enough time to F*** around trying to figure it out.

So far Capcom is the only company to install a game to the HDD before you could play it.
To be far they wanted to do it on both platforms. But they could not convince Microsoft to let them.
So where they had pop-in or distance draw-in on the Xbox360 they simply eliminated that issue/object on both platforms.
Ultimately this & Lost Planet are a back and forth cross-platform compromise that has inadvertently compromised their attempt at balance with a required install.


I take it this is assumption??

Capcom is not the only developer to do mandatory installs with the PS3 prior to playing.
 
Uhh? what do you mean?

Ok I misread what you said....you said "within the constraints of a BD drive", whereas if you said "with the constraints of a BD drive", you'd be implying PS3's BD drive reads and seeks slower than the 360's DVD drive.

Anyway still yet to find a reason for a 5gb install...instead of 1 or 2gb - and especially to have it only on the PS3 version. I don't think a possible answer has really been reached yet.
 
Why?

I see it's down as the standard for PS3, so why is no one using it?

It's not that no one is using it, it's just that to get the most out of the hardware, the top devs will just toss out much or all of that bulky API completely. Even for Resistance 1 Insomniac did not use OpenGL but fed the RSX directly.

On a PC you need abstraction layers like OpenGL to cope with compatability issues dued to there being so many legacy and competing GPUs out there. For a fixed platform it is not optimal.

It's there for people get get code up and running quickly on their platform. It's not meant to be a long term solution for great results.


Back on topic. I am glad the PS3 drive is 2x. It makes for a very quiet system. My Wii is even louder than my PS3 when there is a disc spinning in it. And I have no problem with mandatory installs. Though I imagine that because of the huge backlash DMC4 got, other devs might be reluctant do continue this trend.
 
Again, it was an option, and not the official graphics system of PS3. It was probably important as a bullet point for developers to think 'that'll be nice and easy' but the thing with consoles, and closed hardware like computers of old, is invariably you throw out as much of the OS and systems as you can and write everything straight to the hardware!
 
It's not that no one is using it, it's just that to get the most out of the hardware, the top devs will just toss out much or all of that bulky API completely. Even for Resistance 1 Insomniac did not use OpenGL but fed the RSX directly.

On a PC you need abstraction layers like OpenGL to cope with compatability issues dued to there being so many legacy and competing GPUs out there. For a fixed platform it is not optimal.

It's there for people get get code up and running quickly on their platform. It's not meant to be a long term solution for great results.
So, is that also with DirectX and the 360?
 
I take it this is assumption??

Capcom is not the only developer to do mandatory installs with the PS3 prior to playing.

I look forward to learning more about this issue.
Could you name and link, some developers other than Capcom who have released games mandating an install to HDD?
 
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