OSX blows away XP in UI consistency, and it doesn't suffer from all the same lags and modality (whoops, explorer hung again!) It's delivering 2 years ago what Vista only promises to do and hasn't delivered yet. Hell, I'm waiting for a good bluetooth stack to show up in MS Windows. MS doesn't have it, nor any integration. My desktop PC is now my gaming platform, but OSX is my development platform.
Linux : PS3's downfall?
- Thread starter !eVo!-X Ant UK
- Start date
Sis said:
That's not a good argument for what a desktop OS for most users should have. The average user doesn't give a damn about visual basic. And frankly, most large businesses are running Unix/Linux servers. VB lives in the middle management IT area of boring form filling CRUD apps with reporting, but it is being rapidly obsoleted by HTML applications. A good AJAX HTML application can do everything a VB can do these days, and not require an expensive heavy client.
Treading on my area of expertise here. The power of Office is not VB scripting but Automation, the fact that nearly any part of Office can be used as a library from within any programming language. VB script is comparatively insignificant - you can only really do anything useful with VB script because all of Office is exposed through a half-decent object model, and that's the real point and power of Office. From Office 2000, you You can use JScript for that matter, and from 2003, the XML versions of documents are becoming useful too (could still be a lot better, but its getting there).
The best thing MS did for Desktops is develop the .NET Framework. I like that a lot better than coding applications for Browsers. Browsers may be getting good at this stuff, but they're still a lot slower than using .NET Windows Components and I can orphan a browser area into my application to still give me anything that a browser can, and use all sorts of online stuff. Also pretty easy to install and update online, and so on.
The biggest pro of Browser Applications is cross-platform compatability, though the different flavors of Browsers out there definitely don't help. For most purposes in our business environment, a .NET Framework application makes a lot more sense than a browser based application.
For the record, I never use scripting languages at all - I build all stuff you would normally script into a .NET Windows Application, that's more robust (doesn't clutter Word with plug-ins that potentially get in each others way), gives cleaner documents (ours never contain any Macro code whatsoever, so never cause problems at other firms), and is easier to maintain when upgrading to a new Windows / Office version.
The best thing MS did for Desktops is develop the .NET Framework. I like that a lot better than coding applications for Browsers. Browsers may be getting good at this stuff, but they're still a lot slower than using .NET Windows Components and I can orphan a browser area into my application to still give me anything that a browser can, and use all sorts of online stuff. Also pretty easy to install and update online, and so on.
The biggest pro of Browser Applications is cross-platform compatability, though the different flavors of Browsers out there definitely don't help. For most purposes in our business environment, a .NET Framework application makes a lot more sense than a browser based application.
For the record, I never use scripting languages at all - I build all stuff you would normally script into a .NET Windows Application, that's more robust (doesn't clutter Word with plug-ins that potentially get in each others way), gives cleaner documents (ours never contain any Macro code whatsoever, so never cause problems at other firms), and is easier to maintain when upgrading to a new Windows / Office version.
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I presume this is for businesses, right? My point is what is the home user going to need from an Office app? Word over the years has added scripting but I'm still using the features it originally had. Most of the stuff added later I've never even looked at! I've had a brief look at OOo. It looks capable enough, similar to Word and Access. I have problems of course and the help is a bit of a wild goose chase, as is the norm. It also doesn't look right, too large fonts, but that might be because I don't have a required font installed? Anyway, all PS3 would need is a simplistic wordprocessor, type and print with some text effects, and a mail-program, and that's got to be 90% of home use covered for letters, school reports, contacting granny, etc. I don't know what the use of spreadsheets is but the only people I know who use them are professional IT bods for their finances, and only a few of them too. I don't know anyone use a database. A Contacts database shared with the email program is as much as the majority will ever want. So for PS3 Linux to be a useable device capable of replacing the PC for most home users, the amount of software needed is likely limited, and most apps are probably too much. OpenOffice included. This is an area Sony could work on if they had sense. A super-simple computer that does 95% of what's needed is likely more preferable than a machine that can do 100% but is complicated, ad Linux could be a definite strength for PS3 if they targetted the computer illiterate with home applications.Arwin said:
Well, my point, which Arwin fleshed out much better than I, is that businesses do use the advanced features. And people tend to like what they work with. This cyclic function is why Microsoft sells so much software; by catering to business needs, not consumer needs.Shifty Geezer said:
So to your point: the consumer may not need it, but they may still want it. Sony will have to combat against that; but to be honest, packaging any kind of free software is probably a bonus, not a negative. I just wanted to point out that feature parity is not the only aspect worth considering.
For prosumer and home use, PS3 will do just fine with AJAX, Flash 7 (at least, please 
) and seamless UNIX shell support. If I were Sony, I will not stop at just distributing a Linux distro, I will also:
* Develop/endorse a Sony brand of desktop based on one of the Linux desktop frameworks. This will allow the community to develop for PS3 specific integration and enhancements consistently across open source packages. It will also allow Sony some form of control to achieve good user experiences (like Apple but more open). But I doubt it will happen unless Sony is very far ahead in defining itself.
* Support open source Cell projects for multimedia, security and networking applications to anchor Cell into mainstream use. This will generate more licensing activities for Cell, and also shorten development time for Cell applications.
) and seamless UNIX shell support. If I were Sony, I will not stop at just distributing a Linux distro, I will also:* Develop/endorse a Sony brand of desktop based on one of the Linux desktop frameworks. This will allow the community to develop for PS3 specific integration and enhancements consistently across open source packages. It will also allow Sony some form of control to achieve good user experiences (like Apple but more open). But I doubt it will happen unless Sony is very far ahead in defining itself.
* Support open source Cell projects for multimedia, security and networking applications to anchor Cell into mainstream use. This will generate more licensing activities for Cell, and also shorten development time for Cell applications.
!eVo!-X Ant UK
Banned
Im lost I asked a few simple questions in my first post and get a load of crap in reply
I asked a few simple questions in my first post and get a load of crap in reply !eVo!-X Ant UK said:Im lost
Well, people answered you and the discussion took a different turn.
In recap, it's possible that it could be used to do the things you mentioned using linux, but it's possible to do those things not using linux as well. It all depends on what kinds of restrictions are in place at a lower level. Linux may make it marginally easier, but not enough to really affect the outcome in any significant way.What linux does provide is a nice, standard, and freely available platform with a huge software base and reasonable quality development tools. It is extremely cheap for Sony to include, it is almost totally devoid of games (no competition for PS3 games), and it has a lot of high quality software that inevitable will be ported to the PS3 that sony doesn't have to spend money developing.
Nite_Hawk
!eVo!-X Ant UK
Banned
Nite_Hawk said:Well, people answered you and the discussion took a different turn.
What linux does provide is a nice, standard, and freely available platform with a huge software base and reasonable quality development tools. It is extremely cheap for Sony to include, it is almost totally devoid of games (no competition for PS3 games), and it has a lot of high quality software that inevitable will be ported to the PS3 that sony doesn't have to spend money developing.
Nite_Hawk
Thank You
Atlast somebody told me in dummy language
I doubt they want people to buy "cheap workstations" aslong the PS3 is sold at a loss. Im positively surprised that Linux will be there from the start, I did expect it to turn up later in its life.Urian said:
Whats solely missing these days are "homecomputers" and I think thats the spot where PS3+Linux could fit in. Im rarely using Linux, because I dont like the variety of distributions and, because of that, the general "ducttape"-feel when you start looking under the surface (ever tried to fix a complex configure-file?).
Now, whichever Distro Sony choose could become way more lean and straightforward than the rest by focusing on 1 architecture and 1 set of standard (base-)libraries. Way easier to get into, even if the resulting programms would be less portable. Just look at the Amiga which created an vast amount of freeware&PD Programms ( and a huge, still active collection of those - "Aminet"), while still having a fair share of commercial programms & games.
If people bought PlayStation as a work station, Kutaragi would proably top himself. It's a station for playing, not for working!Npl said:
Though I miss the days of homecomputers, with homebrew a mainstay of their use, the entry level price of PCs has dropped so low it satisfies the requirement. Not the same feel to it, but a £300 Dell with Windows XP and MS Works and monitor covers the majority of home requirements. To get back to that 'homecomputer' feel I think a high level BASIC would have to come with the machine. When PSM has CD's of PS3 homebrew apps created by 12 year olds in the bedroom, the homecomputer will be back
Shifty Geezer said:If people bought PlayStation as a work station, Kutaragi would proably top himself. It's a station for playing, not for working!
Though I miss the days of homecomputers, with homebrew a mainstay of their use, the entry level price of PCs has dropped so low it satisfies the requirement. Not the same feel to it, but a £300 Dell with Windows XP and MS Works and monitor covers the majority of home requirements. To get back to that 'homecomputer' feel I think a high level BASIC would have to come with the machine. When PSM has CD's of PS3 homebrew apps created by 12 year olds in the bedroom, the homecomputer will be back
The current PC could never meet that requirement. Back in the days, homecomputers like the Atari 800 / C64, but more importantly, the Atari ST and Amiga 500 (I've had both) had fixed hardware. Coders could dig deep and create awesome demos, games, or even cool other stuff, and they'd run for everyone. PCs for a short while, when VGA was all that mattered, was in a similar position. But since then, PCs fragmented into thousands of configurations and became useless.
Except for helping developing PSP homebrew of course. The PSP is the closest thing I know now to the days of the homecomputers and early PCs, in several ways - the hardware is accessible, and you have both Lua Player (=basic, basically) and C/C++ developers, and some people sussing out the hardware on deeper levels (3d support, VMX, etc.)
If the PS3 comes with Linux, although the machine is complex, it can be a lot more like then again, but we'll just have to wait and see for now how useful that PS3 distro will be and if it'll happen at all at that.
Sony, on the off-chance you are reading this, do it! I'm drooling at the idea of having a 1920x1080p HD TV with PS3, keyboard, mouse, Linux distro, and Cell enabled C compiler. Just give us Nvidia drivers that support OpenGL ES to start with, and we'll take it from there! You'll get tonnes of cool Playstation Network downloadable content in no time.
Arwin said:Sony, on the off-chance you are reading this, do it! I'm drooling at the idea of having a 1920x1080p HD TV with PS3, keyboard, mouse, Linux distro, and Cell enabled C compiler. Just give us Nvidia drivers that support OpenGL ES to start with, and we'll take it from there! You'll get tonnes of cool Playstation Network downloadable content in no time.
judging by the psp situation, that does not intrigue sony at all.
You don't need to use VB to "script" Office components. And if you only need to deal with Office document formats, one can do that far easier with third party tools. I can process Excel spreadsheets using Perl, Python, Ruby, or Java and all are better languages than VB. This will become less and less relevant as the new Open Document Format takes off.
As for .NET, yes, the best thing Microsoft did for the world of desktops was to copy Java, or rather, the best thing they did for *MS* desktops was to copy Java. I don't think they did anything for the world of Apple desktops or Linux desktops (Mono is irrelevent) tho.
Still, VB is a terrible language, and if Office scripting is the only reason for it to exist, I say let it die.
As for .NET, yes, the best thing Microsoft did for the world of desktops was to copy Java, or rather, the best thing they did for *MS* desktops was to copy Java. I don't think they did anything for the world of Apple desktops or Linux desktops (Mono is irrelevent) tho.
Still, VB is a terrible language, and if Office scripting is the only reason for it to exist, I say let it die.
Magnum PI said:
Derailing the thread, I know, just can't leave that unanswered.
I'm still amazed how a single article, based on no sources (official or not), but pure speculation (fear of pirates? where the hell does this so-called journalist get it from?) turned the whole net into believing Darwin's kernel has gone closed-source.
Publishing of the x86 sources of the OS X's kernel is as of now delayed, that's all there is to it. Even an Apple employee had to surface to cover THAT crap :/ What a shame.
Apple said:
There. (going back to lurking mode)
darkblu said:
Could be the reverse - the Homebrew situation showed them there's a demand, and more importantly, there's a supply - talented coders willing to create content for free.
Similarly, they need something to rival Xbox Live Arcade, and creating content for the "Playstation Distribution Network" using the official SDK wouldn't work, too expensive. This would be a good solution. And from the looks of it, the PDN is also for PSP stuff, as you can register yourself on one of Sony's official sites if you want to provide content.
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