Linux : PS3's downfall?

[Magnum PI]

since when has darwin become closed source?

http://www.macworld.co.uk/news/index.cfm?NewsID=14663&Page=1&pagePos=8

and did i get you right that you like desktop solutions based on freebsd but your don't like osx?

please read my post, it didn't say that Linux or FreeBSD were the best desktop-wise or that i don't like OS desktop-wise..
i would recommend windows XP over anything else for a dekstop..
i use myself linux as a desktop OS and i know about the shortcomings.. for the casual user it's not worth the hassle, they better use windows XP..

what do you think osx is?

an OS that i would neither choose for my desktop of my servers.

and how is it less secure than any other freebsd out there?

just look at the facts:

http://secunia.com/product/96/
http://secunia.com/product/1132/

They were affected by about the same numbers of security problems, but they were much more severe on macosx.

yes, its windowing manager is taxing on the hw but do you have in mind anything better for the desktop? xorg & co are millenia behind feature-wise.

if you had read my post you would have seen that i recommend windows XP for desktop.

quartz + cocoa are in a league of their own when it comes to versatility and oozness. at work i'm using xorg modular CVS HEAD + gnome - it's so far behind quartz + cocoa that it's not even funny.

as said above, i don't pretend linux is an interesting solution desktop wise..

IMHO linux desktop is immature

 

[Magnum PI]

Unix installations of any sort are only as "safe" as the software in the installation.

and it isn't safer that its configuration either

This is a pretty cool little trick, but it means almost any piece of software installed or written incorrectly can be a security loophole.

it's not like every software is installed setuid. on a default server installation i have 2% of binaries which are setuid.

fortunately unix-like OS are evolving, for ex:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Security-Enhanced_Linux

 

[Titanio]

Maybe it's just me, but if indeed the cheaper PS3 and this X360 add-on can't play the movies with maximum quality, then they are useless to me, I would never consider buying something like that.

If 1080p Blu-ray movie playback means so much to you, I'm sure you'll find the $600 for the premium PS3 to be a bargain as things stand at the moment. Nothing compares in terms of value when you start mixing in a desire for a HD movie player etc.

 

[Magnum PI]

Out of curiosity, how good is Linux with a desktop interface(like kDE) on 256 Meg ram? I heard MacOsX sucks with 256 meg, but I am not sure how efficient is their desktop interface..

it usable, not comfortable. if you use openoffice you'll want 512 MB at least.

 

[Urian]

linux isn't that overhyped..

whereas the desktop solution based on linux or freebsd are not the best, these are very efficient as server OSes.

running macosX on my servers would mean both a waste of resources (much less efficient) and security jeopardy.. and now even a closed-source kernel !

as anything apple, macosx is definitevely overhyped, i'd rather use windows XP on the desktop than the overbloated macosx, linux/freebsd on the servers..

I was talking with the usual desktop computer in mind.

I know that Linux is superior to OS X in servers.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

at work i'm using xorg modular CVS HEAD + gnome - it's so far behind quartz + cocoa that it's not even funny.

And people wonder why the general populace at large don't consider Linux user friendly. This line is the epitome of Geekiness!

 

[ban25]

In some ways this is true of any OS, but Unix and it's derivatives deal with security through the concept of an effective user. When I run a program on Unix, it can be flagged to change my effective Group and effective user to have high enough privelidges to do the operation requested even if I do not.

Huh? If the program is not setuid/setgid by root, it cannot do this.

 

[ERP]

Huh? If the program is not setuid/setgid by root, it cannot do this.

Right I was generalising somewhat, it isn't all applications just thise that require higher privelidges than those granted to the user.

And if they are actually set up porperly most of those don't need to be setuid/gid by root.

However IME most unix installations both have more applications than they should setuid/gid to root and don't really verify the quaility of those applications.

 

[ban25]

However IME most unix installations both have more applications than they should setuid/gid to root and don't really verify the quaility of those applications.

You're right, they do. A typical hardening procedure on most UNIX servers these days involves removing the setuid bits from all nonessential programs (usually all or nearly all of them). SELinux definitely bolts this down and other security focused systems like Trusted Solaris go well beyond the standard UNIX security model.

 

[DuckThor Evil]

If 1080p Blu-ray movie playback means so much to you, I'm sure you'll find the $600 for the premium PS3 to be a bargain as things stand at the moment. Nothing compares in terms of value when you start mixing in a desire for a HD movie player etc.

Yep for sure I will buy the HDMI model no question about that, however I won't be upgrading my 61" 720p TV until it's lamp dies, so until then 1080p means basically nothing to me, as I rather watch 720p on my 61" than 1080+ on my 22" 4:3 monitor...
I agree that for 600$/e it would be great value if I already had 1080p set, but for the first couble of years it would basically be for games, so I don't view it as great value, but decent value, I probably won't buy one at launch, unless the launch games are truly spectacular. Basically 400e's is a sweet spot for me, and I'm very reluctant to pay more, maybe this time I will wait for price cut's and also better line up of games, it would certainly be the first time I'd manage to do something like that.

 

[one]

I hope the Linux for PS3 accelerates the development of GPU-accelerated desktop projects on Linux such as http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/RenderingProject/aiglx and user-friendly shells for those who are too lazy to type Unix commands in a terminal or edit conf files.

They are what Windows Vista and MacOSX offer, except for DRM platform such as Windows Media. Then third parties offer drivers and applications.

 

[Megadrive1988]

I think Linux is going to be a great benefit to PS3. I guess the PS2 did not have enough memory or enough non-floating point performance (general purpose computing) to run *enough* Linux apps to make it a massive success.

the PS3 has 8x the RAM, a standard harddrive, much better general purpose compute performance with the refined PPE (correct me if im wrong) and built-in networking (ethernet)

I admit I know incredibly little about Linux, next to nothing, but from the little I do know, it was probably Sony's only real option. since Sony would never accept Microsoft's offer of Windows on PS2 or PS3, and I doubt Apple would allow Mac OS on a Playstation (correct me if thats untrue)...


I'm looking forward to some computer-like functionality out of my PS3, that I could not EASILY get from PS2 without jumping through many hoops (the PS2 Linux Kit).....

I'm looking forward to many if not all of the features that Sony promised for PS2 users in 2001 (AOL Instant Messenger, chat rooms, Email, streaming RealMedia, Java, Flash, etc)

 

[patsu]

Hmm... there seem to be 2 needs now:
(A) Ability to develop and run open source Linux software
(B) Ability to run more than just games (AOL, Flash, blah blah)

For (A), I think we can only run them in a separate environment like PS 2. My guess is we most likely cannot access the game-side of the run-time, or even the hard disk (not sure at all). But we may be able to boot into Linux and use it as a PC (hopefully we can program Cell).

For (B), I *think* it's like what we have for PSP now (web browser with Flash, RSS, and more Internet stuff promised), plus the Playstation Network Platform. However only Sony certified apps/games can run here. We most likely cannot run software from (A) in (B). Well... you probably knew that already

Even so, I have some prototype on my laptop and partially on a PSP (not fully working): I want to do something hi-level and simple, for end users to script and run a Cell network like the original patent It's still far away but at least the networked virtual world is done after months of part time work. Now if I can find some more time without my wife divorcing me, I need to interface it with the Cell simulator (Totally not sure whether it's possible, but I just went ahead). Nothing fanciful, just the bare bones and something kludgy for proof of concept. Thanks for the delay, I still have 6 months to go (may be 6 years )

So yeah I'm looking forward to Linux on PS3.

 

[Nite_Hawk]

since when has darwin become closed source?
http://www.opensource.apple.com/darwinsource/


and did i get you right that you like desktop solutions based on freebsd but your don't like osx?

what do you think osx is? and how is it less secure than any other freebsd out there? yes, its windowing manager is taxing on the hw but do you have in mind anything better for the desktop? xorg & co are millenia behind feature-wise. quartz + cocoa are in a league of their own when it comes to versatility and oozness. at work i'm using xorg modular CVS HEAD + gnome - it's so far behind quartz + cocoa that it's not even funny.

You should try XGL with compiz ontop of xorg. It's absolutely amazing how much progress has been made in the last 6 months. I've currently got dual screens setup on a *fx5200* at work running 1600x1200 on each display. The entire desktop is running at reasonable speed with all of the opengl effects enabled. The only time it slows down a bit is when rotating to new desktops with lots of windows open. It is easily as impressive as OSX.

What will be really exciting is when XGL is far enough along that work on XeGL starts taking place. XeGL is a project to basically create independent opengl/egl drivers that an xserver can run ontop of (similar to XGLX portion of XGL). Ultimately the goal would be run X as just another egl application so that vendors wouldn't need actually write thier own X drivers. They would only need to write opengl drivers (which presumably they are already good at doing). AIGLX is another approach which extends the current xserver with opengl support. A better explaination of all of this along with some diagrams can be found here:

http://principe.homelinux.net/

Nite_Hawk

 

[darkblu]

http://www.macworld.co.uk/news/index.cfm?NewsID=14663&Page=1&pagePos=8

that's a pity. though from my perspective nothing changed - i'm on a g4 here. the greatest impact from the closing of the x86 kernel source *atm* is for those running osx on non-apple x86 hw, and i don't remember apple ever announcing support for such *shrug*

please read my post, it didn't say that Linux or FreeBSD were the best desktop-wise or that i don't like OS desktop-wise..

ok, my bad. i thought you also meant desktop-wise as the ps3 will be more of a desktop with minimal server functionality. funny, that's pretty much what my g4 does here - it's my daily desktop and also runs a couple of low-load servers.

i would recommend windows XP over anything else for a dekstop..

well, i wouldn't. to each his own, i guess.

i use myself linux as a desktop OS and i know about the shortcomings.. for the casual user it's not worth the hassle, they better use windows XP..

hmm. out of curiosity, how much exposure have you had to osx?

just look at the facts:

http://secunia.com/product/96/
http://secunia.com/product/1132/

They were affected by about the same numbers of security problems, but they were much more severe on macosx.

did you check by any chance the 'impact' charts there?

if you had read my post you would have seen that i recommend windows XP for desktop.

yes, i see that now. we'll have to agree to disagree here..

as said above, i don't pretend linux is an interesting solution desktop wise..

IMHO linux desktop is immature

..but here i have to wholeheartedly agree.

 

[darkblu]

You should try XGL with compiz ontop of xorg.
<snip>
Nite_Hawk

thanks, Night_Hawk, i'll definitely give it a try when i have the free time. btw, i hope it does work over DRI?

 

[Nite_Hawk]

thanks, Night_Hawk, i'll definitely give it a try when i have the free time. btw, i hope it does work over DRI?

There are some howtos on the compiz.net forums here:

http://www.compiz.net/viewforum.php?id=5

And if you search around there are a lot of distro specific installation instructions on various forums and wikis (such as the ubuntu wiki).

Nite_Hawk

 

[Magnum PI]

hmm. out of curiosity, how much exposure have you had to osx?

enough to dislike it

i have no serious grief against macosX, not like linux. so i can't disagree with you if i don't like macosX it has everything to do with culture and taste.

it can be surprising because i like very much the idea of a unix-like system with a good UI, and i was a happy NeXT user twelve years ago. to each his contradiction

 

[Magnum PI]

for sure eye candy is making big advances on linux desktop.

but the real limitations of linux desktop remain.

ie: there is too much UI inconsistency. dialogs, menues varying from an application to another. gnome kde, gtk, qt.. i use mainly gnome and gnome applications and it's so lacking i don't undestand the philosophy behind:
crippled open/file dialog, printer dialog where you can only configure a tiny subset of printer parameters, itunes-wanabee media player that you can't even configure to downmix to mono..


despite the progress made on that GL-acceleration front, a linux desktop feel a lot less snappy than a windows XP, adding eye candy doesn't help at all here.

i've nothing agains GLX, AIGLX and all (tested AIGLX + patched metacity at home), but they tend to slow down your desktop to a crawl.

at least since xorg forked from xfree86 things are evolving much faster.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

ie: there is too much UI inconsistency. dialogs, menues varying from an application to another. gnome kde, gtk, qt.. i use mainly gnome and gnome applications and it's so lacking i don't undestand the philosophy behind:
crippled open/file dialog, printer dialog where you can only configure a tiny subset of printer parameters, itunes-wanabee media player that you can't even configure to downmix to mono..

That is a big problem and something MS got very right in it's standardization. I tried Win-GIMP and though powerful, the interface is so alien compared to what I'm used to it was hard to use (ignoring some killer bugs!).

Anyhow, I've just downloaded OpenOffice and I'll give that a whirl, see whether that on PS3 will satisfy my meagre requirements. Office2000 is utter overkill for me (and most people - do we really need Visual Basic scripting?!) and something that offers only the basics would suffice as an alternative for home use.