Linux : PS3's downfall?

[!eVo!-X Ant UK]

I was just a having a think about what can be done with linux on PS3 and i started to think what it could do TO PS3. Could it for example be used by hackers for a gameloader? or maybe used to disable the HDCP on HDMI and make the console output 1080p over component?

Ive never used Linux so a answear would be appriciated ( In dumbass terms would be helpful aswel )

EDIT : Cheers to who ever corrected the title for me.

 

[Urian]

Linux is one of the most overhyped Operating Systems that exist in the real world, I am still waiting for the Linux Desktop with the same quality of OS X.

I remember how Sony promised a PS2 expandable to a computer thanks to Linux and I was very happy with the idea, PS3 is going to appear with Linux inside and this is just an important thing, but we don´t know what treatment Linux is going to receive inside PS3.

 

[Magnum PI]

Linux is one of the most overhyped Operating Systems that exist in the real world, I am still waiting for the Linux Desktop with the same quality of OS X.

linux isn't that overhyped..

whereas the desktop solution based on linux or freebsd are not the best, these are very efficient as server OSes.

running macosX on my servers would mean both a waste of resources (much less efficient) and security jeopardy.. and now even a closed-source kernel !

as anything apple, macosx is definitevely overhyped, i'd rather use windows XP on the desktop than the overbloated macosx, linux/freebsd on the servers..

 

[Magnum PI]

I was just a having a think about what can be done with linux on PS3 and i started to think what it could do TO PS3. Could it for example be used by hackers for a gameloader? or maybe used to disable the HDCP on HDMI and make the console output 1080p over component?.

as much as with any other OS, sony can limit what the user can do.

it's not like it would be offered in an open form like it would be on a PC.

 

[Titanio]

Could it for example be used by hackers for a gameloader? or maybe used to disable the HDCP on HDMI and make the console output 1080p over component?

Just to be clear, 1080p for games will be possible over component with a cable of suitable length. 720p will also be possible for movies, until studios start implementing ICT (which I now hear won't be for another 5 or 6 years?).

As for Linux and security, I'm not sure what will or won't be possible. We'll have to see what it looks like. But as is, we do know right now that it'll be running on top of the hypervisor, possibly as an application (and the priveledges that might imply). But we'll see. PS2 Linux is probably your best guide here.

 

[DuckThor Evil]

Just to be clear, 1080p for games will be possible over component with a cable of suitable length. 720p will also be possible for movies, until studios start implementing ICT (which I now hear won't be for another 5 or 6 years?).

Are yoy saying that 1080p for movies is not possible over component?

 

[Titanio]

Are yoy saying that 1080p for movies is not possible over component?

I'm not entirely clear on the matter, but apparently Blu-ray allows only 720p or 1080i over component - independent of AACS guidelines - simply because so few televisions support 1080p over component. If you have a 1080p TV, you'd be advised to get the HDMI-enabled PS3 if you want 1080p for movies (and I'm sure if you're the type of person with 1080p TV, you could afford it ).

My info is second hand though, so feel free to correct me if this isn't true.

 

[silhouette]

Out of curiosity, how good is Linux with a desktop interface(like kDE) on 256 Meg ram? I heard MacOsX sucks with 256 meg, but I am not sure how efficient is their desktop interface..

 

[DuckThor Evil]

My info is second hand though, so feel free to correct me if this isn't true.

No I was just asking as this was new information for me, come to think of it, it does make sense, I wonder if there is even 1 TV out there that supports 1080p over component, or whether those are even going to be available. Hmm it's a bit nasty issue, I mean component is more than enough to carry 1080p, but if the TVs don't support it it's a bitch.

I hope most people will realise this before making their PS3 purchase, because it would be a nasty suprise to find out after one has already bought the cheaper version. I myself have never even considered the cheaper one, but I'm sure there are going be lot's of people who are not interested in 1080p Blu-Ray-movies, but might be after couble of years.

Casual gamers and people overall don't know too much about these things, so I could see this as becoming a big problem and certainly Phil Harrison's words that the two versions function identically can be seen in a different light after this, ofcourse this has to true for any of this to apply.

 

[Titanio]

No I was just asking as this was new information for me, come to think of it, it does make sense, I wonder if there is even 1 TV out there that supports 1080p over component, or whether those are even going to be available. Hmm it's a bit nasty issue, I mean component is more than enough to carry 1080p, but if the TVs don't support it it's a bitch.

I hope most people will realise this before making their PS3 purchase, because it would be a nasty suprise to find out after one has already bought the cheaper version. I myself have never even considered the cheaper one, but I'm sure there are going be lot's of people who are not interested in 1080p Blu-Ray-movies, but might be after couble of years.

Casual gamers and people overall don't know too much about these things, so I could see this as becoming a big problem and certainly Phil Harrison's words that the two versions function identically can be seen in a different light after this, ofcourse this has to true for any of this to apply.

It's pretty simple, if you have a 1080p TV with HDMI, you might want the premium pack. Anyone else should get by fine with the other pack.

 

[DuckThor Evil]

It's pretty simple, if you have a 1080p TV with HDMI, you might want the premium pack. Anyone else should get by fine with the other pack.

well 1080p set's today are not found in very many homes, however in 3 years things will be different, especially in the US. So basically if you go with the cheaper version now, you should have had made the desicion not to buy 1080p set in 5-6 years and that is pretty big desicion to make( I know that's not entirely accurate, but close enough to make my point)
And because people don't even Know about these things I can see some pissed of customers in few years when 1080p tv's starts shifting to homes and they find out that their PS3 can't play movies at 1080p.

edit: does this also mean, that the HD-DVD add-on for X360 also won't play movies at 1080p?

 

[Titanio]

well 1080p set's today are not found in very many homes, however in 3 years things will be different, especially in the US. So basically if you go with the cheaper version now, you should have had made the desicion not to buy 1080p set in 5-6 years and that is pretty big desicion to make( I know that's not entirely accurate, but close enough to make my point)
And because people don't even Know about these things I can see some pissed of customers in few years when 1080p tv's starts shifting to homes and they find out that their PS3 can't play movies at 1080p.

TBH, I don't think most people, casuals at least, would notice that they're PS3 isn't outputting a native 1080p movie signal versus a scaled 720p output! But by the time this would be of concern to most people, I think PS3 would be quite cheap (if they wanted a HDMI one) or they'd possibly be in the market for dedicated players anyway. I really don't think it's a big deal, though, I'm sure most could live with the 720p scaled until they have a dedicated player, or a HDMI-enabled (slim, perhaps? ) PS3.

edit - on HD-DVD I'm not sure. But the first HD-DVD players that only support component don't offer 1080p.

 

[crystalcube]

linking linux to PS3's downfall ?
in corporate space IBM is the biggest supporter/contributor of Linux. They must have fallen pretty low by now

Linux is still an OS and all systems are hackable. Linux doesn't makes it easier or difficult. Does absence of Linux makes a system less hackable ? Modders sill hacked the boxes for Xbox/PS2.

On the other hand , depending on how much Sony permits, it can allow homebrew to run on PS3.

 

[darkblu]

OT, sorry

linux isn't that overhyped..

whereas the desktop solution based on linux or freebsd are not the best, these are very efficient as server OSes.

running macosX on my servers would mean both a waste of resources (much less efficient) and security jeopardy.. and now even a closed-source kernel !

as anything apple, macosx is definitevely overhyped, i'd rather use windows XP on the desktop than the overbloated macosx, linux/freebsd on the servers..

since when has darwin become closed source?
http://www.opensource.apple.com/darwinsource/


and did i get you right that you like desktop solutions based on freebsd but your don't like osx?

what do you think osx is? and how is it less secure than any other freebsd out there? yes, its windowing manager is taxing on the hw but do you have in mind anything better for the desktop? xorg & co are millenia behind feature-wise. quartz + cocoa are in a league of their own when it comes to versatility and oozness. at work i'm using xorg modular CVS HEAD + gnome - it's so far behind quartz + cocoa that it's not even funny.

 

[crystalcube]

what do you think osx is? and how is it less secure than any other freebsd out there?

You cant compare both just because OS X looks like FreeBSD under the hood , it is not freeBSD. Kernel for both is very different. FreeBSD is a monolithic kernel while OS X uses a modified mach microkernel.

You have to consider other things also e.g. there have been many issues with QuickTime which do not impact FreeBSD because there is no QuickTime for FreeBSD but its packaged with OS X.
They are similar but not the same , you can easily verify this by looking at last 6 months security advisories for both system , they are completely different.

 

[darkblu]

You cant compare both just because OS X looks like FreeBSD under the hood, it is not freeBSD. Kernel for both is very different. FreeBSD is a monolithic kernel while OS X uses a modified mach microkernel.

fair enugh. but kernel protection models aside, what can freebsd do that darwin cannot do just as well?

You have to consider other things also e.g. there have been many issues with QuickTime which do not impact FreeBSD because there is no QuickTime for FreeBSD but its packaged with OS X.

it may be packaged with the os but it's in no way required for the work of the system. plus apple are not exactly lazy with their qt security updates.

They are similar but not the same, you can easily verify this by looking at last 6 months security advisories for both system, they are completely different.

ed: sorry, misread the above. i'll go check the freebsd security advisories now to see if they differ that fundamentally security-wise.

 

[DuckThor Evil]

TBH, I don't think most people, casuals at least, would notice that they're PS3 isn't outputting a native 1080p movie signal versus a scaled 720p output! But by the time this would be of concern to most people, I think PS3 would be quite cheap (if they wanted a HDMI one) or they'd possibly be in the market for dedicated players anyway. I really don't think it's a big deal, though, I'm sure most could live with the 720p scaled until they have a dedicated player, or a HDMI-enabled (slim, perhaps? ) PS3.

edit - on HD-DVD I'm not sure. But the first HD-DVD players that only support component don't offer 1080p.

Maybe it's just me, but if indeed the cheaper PS3 and this X360 add-on can't play the movies with maximum quality, then they are useless to me, I would never consider buying something like that. I know that some 1000$ dedicated player will probably have better image quality due to image processing etc., but losing 1080p to 1080i is not acceptable to me when movies are considered. If I buy PS3 at launch I don't want to buy another one later on when I upgrade my TV, even if I didn't notice the difference between scaled 720p and real 1080p, although I'm sure I can tell the difference on big screens.

 

[ERP]

Unix installations of any sort are only as "safe" as the software in the installation.

In some ways this is true of any OS, but Unix and it's derivatives deal with security through the concept of an effective user. When I run a program on Unix, it can be flagged to change my effective Group and effective user to have high enough privelidges to do the operation requested even if I do not.

This is a pretty cool little trick, but it means almost any piece of software installed or written incorrectly can be a security loophole. Most more modern operating systems deal with privelidges through a central database, which has it's own issues. My experience during my university hacking days where counting the number of systems on Janet that you had root access to was entertaining, is that with unix the more useable the system is the easier it is to find a hole.

Having said that, we're not talking about OS level access, assuming that the core security architecture on Cell is well thought out, I can't imagine running linux will make much in the way of difference to it's security. Getting to root security in the OS doesn't do you much good if the OS is talking to the hardware through a seperate layer underneath.

 

[Shark Sandwich]

I'm not entirely clear on the matter, but apparently Blu-ray allows only 720p or 1080i over component - independent of AACS guidelines - simply because so few televisions support 1080p over component. If you have a 1080p TV, you'd be advised to get the HDMI-enabled PS3 if you want 1080p for movies (and I'm sure if you're the type of person with 1080p TV, you could afford it ).

My info is second hand though, so feel free to correct me if this isn't true.

You can convert 1080i to true 1080p in exactly the same way progressive scan DVD players today convert 480i to 480p. Basically, when you take 24 fps film and convert it to 60 fps video, you show each frame multiple times. This is 3-2 pulldown. . . it shows one frame 3 times, the next twice, the next 3 times, etc. Since you have multiple frames of video for each frame of film, you can combine the odd and even scanlines and reconstruct the entire frame in all its glory for progressive scan TVs

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1080p
"As long as no additional image-degradation steps were applied during signal mastering (such as excessive vertical-pass filtering), the image from a properly deinterlaced film-source 1080i signal and a native-encoded 1080p signal will look exactly the same."

Of course, for video games rendered natively at 1080p at inconsistent framrates, you would be SOL if you were using component cables. It would be impossible to de-interlace the signal.

Anyway, sorry to derail this topic even further. Just wanted to clear up a misconception that I've seen many, many times.

 

[Tap In]

Just to be clear, 1080p for games will be possible over component with a cable of suitable length. 720p will also be possible for movies, until studios start implementing ICT (which I now hear won't be for another 5 or 6 years?).

...and to think, all of those pages of posts about the downfall of the HD DVD add-on because it doesn't have HDMI, wasted.

I'd be thrilled with component 720P or 1080i for my HD content. My TV does not display 1080p and I'm in no mood to go buy one for another 4-5 years.

as to the topic on hand, I think it's great if PS3 allows users to experiment with Linux. Hopefully they will have limits in place to prevent problems over the gaming network.