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None of the games you mentioned make LAIR "look" terrible nor bad to me but your looking at it from a technical aspect in which you may be 100% correct.
LAIR Thread - * Rules: post #469
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None of the games you mentioned make LAIR "look" terrible nor bad to me but your looking at it from a technical aspect in which you may be 100% correct.
I dont understand how you mange to say this, as an answer to the comments in here.
The criticism mainly is about the lightning, the fact that the game is a bit to brown for most peoples tastes is also mentioned, and is also something alot of people also criticized it for. But thats irrelevant, its a color palette, its just opinions. Has anybody here said that its copying gears? Not a single person. The criticism about the lighting, and the environment, is fair, this is a high budget title, that promised VERY much in terms of land detail and graphics, and at this point is under delivering big time.
It has nothing to do with the game being for the PS3 or the X360, it does need selfshadowing, and we could do with something better than the crap lying in the water representing landmass, stop being so damn emotional about your console choices.
I've used simple fractal noise to generate the landscape, a simple 1 dimensional wave to generate the waves, two simple fractal noise textures for the water and ground bump maps, simple exponential fog, a single light source with a simple shadow map, and a Phong shader with a 'facing ratio' control on the self-illumination (so that the more a polygon faces away from the camera, the more it's cosidered to be lit regardless of the lights in the scene). And a simple bloom filter in Photoshop that's not even HDR-based.
All these are either things that a game artist can create and export from any 3D animation package, or features that have already been implemented on the Xbox1 to run in real time. If anything, I was held back by the 3-4 seconds of rendering time in my adjustments (offline software rendering is a lot slower in many things than hw rendering, for example triangle setup and shadow map rendering, because of speed vs. precision tradeoffs), whereas a reasonably good level editor should allow for immediate feedback in tuning the lighting and fog and some other parameters.
And the most interesting thing is that a talented artist could create a lot better looking image just by carefully adjusting the lighting, textures, and shader parameters...
Sorry but I've deliberately looked at the games from an artistic point and not from technical things - that should be nao's or some other coder's job.
I looked and I thought: "Amazing."
---> @Laa-Yosh: Do you have an opinion on why it is that the untrained eye sees this pictures and thinks so much of them?
But then I said, "ugh". I got a sort of conflicting feeling and would have been confused had someone not made a durect comparison to Gears. I'm getting the same vibe. It's imoressive in a "hey look what the Playstation does" sort of way, but it's also nasty and busy. The way the surfaces crawl with artificial detail is just plain ugly. Lots of generic design in the the characters, again reminding me of Gears.
So like Gears, I'm kind of waffling on this. And perhaps I'm doomed to being the lonely hater throughout the shelf life of this game, too. Explaining myself constantly and getting the occassional orange square for stepping on fanboys toes. =(
Perhaps Lair will have novel-and-competant gameplay yet be hailed as the savior of third person action? On the cover of every crap magazine. Yeah, then PS3 would certainly have it's Gears killer. =p
---> @Laa-Yosh: Do you have an opinion on why it is that the untrained eye sees this pictures and thinks so much of them?
But then I said, "ugh". I got a sort of conflicting feeling and would have been confused had someone not made a durect comparison to Gears. I'm getting the same vibe. It's imoressive in a "hey look what the Playstation does" sort of way, but it's also nasty and busy. The way the surfaces crawl with artificial detail is just plain ugly. Lots of generic design in the the characters, again reminding me of Gears.
So like Gears, I'm kind of waffling on this. And perhaps I'm doomed to being the lonely hater throughout the shelf life of this game, too. Explaining myself constantly and getting the occassional orange square for stepping on fanboys toes. =(
Perhaps Lair will have novel-and-competant gameplay yet be hailed as the savior of third person action? On the cover of every crap magazine. Yeah, then PS3 would certainly have it's Gears killer. =p
The point was that you could have just said that instead, as your image in itself was counterintuitive - the problems it really had in common was similar looking drab colors and similar looking lighting. The other aspects just don't measure up. But now that you mention it, I don't quite agree with some of what you consider to be the "most important" problems. For instance, 'unnatural' would relate back to the issue of art I mentioned. Overuse of speculars and bloom, I do agree with, but its no more worse than what has been already shown.
If you consider the points I raised to be irrelevant, thats fine with me but the fact is that a lot of people like what they're being shown, myself included and I raised some issues I had with the image. Some coincided with what was already highlighted and others were what I've had problems with this game since the beginning. I've raised issues on the game in terms of static images (for example, army variation textures), and I've raised issues with the game when it was in motion (army AI).
To be quite honest, just as you want to say that there are a huge amount of people who refuse to accept the faults with the game, one could easily just accuse you yourself of refusing to accept that overall, the game has its merits and looks good. Whether you like it or not, for the vast majority, its not a major disappointment and your calling out and self-martyring was simply not called for.
Edit:
It seems by the time I finished writing and posted, you have rested your case.
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I laugh all the way to the bank Laa-Yosh. Rounin was right.
Laa-Yosh, if you have artistic eyes to judge somebody's works why don't you use your eyes to judge your own works. Your image looks terrible in every way.
You brought up Gears in your comment then look at this screenshot and tell me how can Gears be compared to Lair. Hints to you, look at the texture of the wall, the entrance, and the truck. Those textures are similar to ps2 games texture.Laa-Yosh said:
http://media.xbox360.ign.com/media/747/747891/img_4050867.html
That was the intetion... you clearly don't get anything that I've written here.
From a technical standpoint, it is at least one level better than any game currently out on any console - including the PS3.
If it's artistically any good (or just a bad choice of screenshots, some looking rather good) is a totally different question.
Im sorry, from what technical standpoint?
Please enlighten me in the technical works that makes this on a whole other level than any other game we have seen images from?
Have you never seen a normal mapped thing before?
Or a pixel or vertex shader?
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Care for some explanation on the second part of my comments?
Explain why Gears looks that way in the screenshot, which you are so proud of.
http://media.xbox360.ign.com/media/747/747891/img_4050867.html
Why? I really can't see it... and if we're at it, whatever happened to the hundreds of dragons on screen?
I'm starting to believe that what we see is Lair 2.0, where the first version had to be scrapped for some reason (unreachable goals?), and F5 is now rushing to complete a game that's completely different from their original vision.
No; you've obviously already made up your mind on the issue and won't accept anything I have to say.
I've already spent too much time on this topic and it's clearly been in vain, no reason to get into any more debates.
This is what's happening.
Every one agrees that we judge the screenshot as its current status and not as of the final version. You brought up we need to wait till Lair 2.0. You jump to the conclusion that hundred of dragons is unreachable. It's no point of talking if you don't know where you are heading.
In this case, Factor 5 have dug themselves a PR hole! They have talked up a lot of what they're doing, and showed an awesome trailer. People are keen to see the real game, and when it falls short of what Factor 5 have shown and said in the past, it's like 'What the...Dickens?!'
Basically, people swarm(ed) onto Screenshots from Lair for PS3 expecting to see mind-numbingly good visuals, a lot in part to Factor 5's reputation, and that's just not happening. So begins the amalysis of what's wrong and where things might be improved and whether the original targets were over-optimistic (or perhaps, how too optimistic they were!). Just revisit this interview to see Eggbrecht gushing, remind yourself of the early screenshots, and then come back to these screenshots and tell me you're right with him in his opinions of power! Especially when he says previous gobsmacking renderings were taken from in-engine. If he was doing that then, why'd's it look like this now? Something PS3 has suffered a fair bit of.
(I've just skimmed through that interview again.
For all the supposed technical competancy of their engine, I can't say I'm seeing much at all. How can Eggbrecht boast about their fire effect?!)Am still looking for that SIGGRAPH presentation... Meanwhile, I found this for GDC 2007. Perhaps someone can interview him/ask him hard questions
"More Than Just A Pretty Map - Creating Next-Generation Materials for Lair
Presenter: Matthias Worch
Session Description:
Next-generation materials are more than just an accumulation of color and normal maps. Join us as we take an in-depth look at the techniques that were used to create the highly detailed materials in LAIR.
The focus of this session is on the artist. It will present multiple ways to quickly and efficiently create color, normal and height maps for realistic materials. It will also demonstrate different ways of acquiring source data for these maps, for example by scanning real world surfaces. To address the bigger picture, we will look at the texture/material creation process from a technical art director's perspective. We will review different approaches to a company-wide shader authoring system and discuss ways to spread material creation knowledge throughout the team.
Idea Takeaway:
Attendees will acquire techniques that help them to quickly and efficiently create realistic-looking materials for next-generation games.
Intended Audience:
Texture artists and art department managers working on next-generation 3D games."
EDIT: FWIW, I'm actually happier than before where Lair is concerned. As for Factor 5's interview, I watched it like 10 times... but everytime my mind wandered off to some other places. They need to show their game instead of talking. That way I can draw my own conclusion.
"More Than Just A Pretty Map - Creating Next-Generation Materials for Lair
Presenter: Matthias Worch
Session Description:
Next-generation materials are more than just an accumulation of color and normal maps. Join us as we take an in-depth look at the techniques that were used to create the highly detailed materials in LAIR.
The focus of this session is on the artist. It will present multiple ways to quickly and efficiently create color, normal and height maps for realistic materials. It will also demonstrate different ways of acquiring source data for these maps, for example by scanning real world surfaces. To address the bigger picture, we will look at the texture/material creation process from a technical art director's perspective. We will review different approaches to a company-wide shader authoring system and discuss ways to spread material creation knowledge throughout the team.
Idea Takeaway:
Attendees will acquire techniques that help them to quickly and efficiently create realistic-looking materials for next-generation games.
Intended Audience:
Texture artists and art department managers working on next-generation 3D games."
EDIT: FWIW, I'm actually happier than before where Lair is concerned. As for Factor 5's interview, I watched it like 10 times... but everytime my mind wandered off to some other places. They need to show their game instead of talking. That way I can draw my own conclusion.
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In this case, Factor 5 have dug themselves a PR hole! They have talked up a lot of what they're doing, and showed an awesome trailer. People are keen to see the real game, and when it falls short of what Factor 5 have shown and said in the past, it's like 'What the...Dickens?!'
Basically, people swarm(ed) onto Screenshots from Lair for PS3 expecting to see mind-numbingly good visuals, a lot in part to Factor 5's reputation, and that's just not happening. So begins the amalysis of what's wrong and where things might be improved and whether the original targets were over-optimistic (or perhaps, how too optimistic they were!). Just revisit this interview to see Eggbrecht gushing, remind yourself of the early screenshots, and then come back to these screenshots and tell me you're right with him in his opinions of power! Especially when he says previous gobsmacking renderings were taken from in-engine. If he was doing that then, why'd's it look like this now? Something PS3 has suffered a fair bit of.
(I've just skimmed through that interview again.
One problem, is that those are off-screen screenshots that are of poor quality themselves. I wasn't there to see them myself, but perhaps our imaginations are filling in for that which was lost in the transfer to camera.
Also, they show only 2 dragons in that amazing sequence, and they are rolling around wet in the rain. Obviously the circumstances of the recent shots are to say the least, different. I don't know the technical details behind how rain will affect the current dragons as they are (in terms of resource taxing, effect on framerate, if any), but I think its safe to say that with their progressive mesh system and other tricks, the original trailer could actually be achieved since it is only 2 dragons (it might be a tech demo offered in game just to prove something)
The scene with the hundreds of dragons might or might not make it in the game, but so far we're seeing levels that have ground details, or take place near ground, making it maybe impractical for them to do that at the same time (resource wise). Perhaps they will do that on a high-sky flying level where for some reason the player cannot decend below the clouds or takes place of the ocean.
In the end though, I do agree with the fact that their boasting of their fire system is rather embarassing and actually laughable.
Two things that stand out which aren't at all dependent on how screens were captured, are the modelling and lighting. The current dragons don't look a patch on those originals, and the current lighting is...well, it looks like PS2 level texture-based lighting to me. You can ignore all the other effects as being affected by the originals capture quality, but you can't miss the lighting and model detail. Compare this old image with this latest one (fourth one down). All the fine detail and realistic lighting is gone. The latest image doesn't even seem to have normal mapping on its belly. The light is coming from somewhere left and up judging by the leg and knight, but the shading on the belly scales doesn't match that.
It's just weird!
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