LAIR Thread - * Rules: post #469

[Naboomagnoli]

IIRC there will indeed be shiny wet dragons in the game. The problem with the early trailer was that people inferred that the dragons would be wet and shiny all the time, rather than just in rain (which is slightly bizarre thinking).

I agree with people on the lighting issue with the sea-worm, just by comparing the worm with the dragon you can clearly see they are lit from very different positions.

Is it possible that the picture was originally just of the worm, and then somebody photoshopped in the dragon to give a sense of scale? Such an inconsistency seems odd for what should be a relatively advanced version of the final game (certainly more advanced than something with which you'd associate such a problem).

Edit: the dragon seems to be lit from the same direction as the nearby rock, so I doubt it.

 

[Crayon]

For those who don't get it....

The point of Laa-Yosh's ugly picture was:

To show how the water/rock environment is almost devoid of any design effort. The point of his picture was not to look just as good as the game- that's why it doesn't . The point was for him to knock around sliders and effects like he don't give a shit for about an hour and come up with something that is eerily similar to the MULTI MILLION DOLLAR production.

... changing gears...

I think that it looks very impressive. Ugly, but impressive. I don't know much of the technical bits behind why it looks bad and it seems that there are more than a few of us in the same boat. That is, we understand it's supposed to look bad, but we think it looks good.

Do any of the more experienced B3Ders have an opinion as to why these screens look good to the casual observer?

And seperatly; Is or is not that what really matters in the end?

 

[Arwin]

I think one of the issues at stake here is that we are very used to prebaked lighting in our games, but Lair, as far as I know, has global illumination of some sort with real-time day-and-knight cycles. How many games do we have that implement this at such a scale that we can compare this to? Lair, in that sense, seems fairly unique to me. I guess I am only one of the few that liked the original bridge demo, for all that it does. I'm not going to waste discussion time on these kinds of shots. Wake me up when we get some new gameplay, or when the first demo is released and people give their real impressions.

 

[Cheezdoodles]

Why didnt someone show this picture to begin with?

This one of the same dragon, with some selfshadowing, obviously looks much better, and much of the lightning arguments would have been dropped

 

[mckmas8808]

Hopefully with the new Ice and Jungle levels we’ll see something different and it will put a whole new light on the game, but right now, apart from the water, it is certainly not up to Factor 5 standards.

But see that's your opinion. There's hundreds of people that think it is up to F5's standards. There's plenty of people that think this is the best graphics shown on the PS3.

Saying this is a bad looking game is sorta reaching. If you don't like the colors or art then okay that's fine. But most people seem to at least respect that the total package graphics wise is good.

 

[patsu]

Too much french fries is bad for my noggin

For those who don't get it....

The point of Laa-Yosh's ugly picture was:

To show how the water/rock environment is almost devoid of any design effort. The point of his picture was not to look just as good as the game- that's why it doesn't . The point was for him to knock around sliders and effects like he don't give a shit for about an hour and come up with something that is eerily similar to the MULTI MILLION DOLLAR production.

But that area does look like a rocky coast and reminds me of highway 1. What more do you want to add to it ? Coconut trees and sea-shells ? To help casuals understand the difference, Laa-Yosh should show us what he can do within time and budget that is noticeably better and can fit into the game world (running real time and such).

What about the other goodies ? Is it reasonable to claim that the whole game has no artistic value based on just 1 small area and 1-2 screenshots of the same area ?

I think that it looks very impressive. Ugly, but impressive. I don't know much of the technical bits behind why it looks bad and it seems that there are more than a few of us in the same boat. That is, we understand it's supposed to look bad, but we think it looks good.

I know I shouldn't eat at In-n-Out Burgers too often. I came back from lunch and couldn't understand this paragraph no matter how I read it.

I agree that there are stuff to be worked on... but I just can't see (damn it !) why people say it's ugly. It may be wrong (like wrong lighting), but it looks better and good to me now. For the nth time, how old/new are the shots ? I remember seeing one of the Oprah's minaturaized shots a few months ago.

 

[homy]

For those who don't get it....

The point of Laa-Yosh's ugly picture was:

To show how the water/rock environment is almost devoid of any design effort. The point of his picture was not to look just as good as the game- that's why it doesn't . The point was for him to knock around sliders and effects like he don't give a shit for about an hour and come up with something that is eerily similar to the MULTI MILLION DOLLAR production.

... changing gears...

I think that it looks very impressive. Ugly, but impressive. I don't know much of the technical bits behind why it looks bad and it seems that there are more than a few of us in the same boat. That is, we understand it's supposed to look bad, but we think it looks good.

Do any of the more experienced B3Ders have an opinion as to why these screens look good to the casual observer?

And seperatly; Is or is not that what really matters in the end?

Sure you didn't read my comments.
I said

He spent 1 hour paintshop on top of an already good image and made it worse. I don't know what to tell you. Human factor versus algorithms.

He didn't create the new image from scratch. He did some touch-ups onto the image.
1 hour is too long for that kind of touch-up and it turned out to be worse.

 

[mckmas8808]

I agree that there are stuff to be worked on... but I just can't see (damn it !) why people say it's ugly. It may be wrong (like wrong lighting), but it looks better and good to me now. For the nth time, how old/new are the shots ? I remember seeing one of the Oprah's minaturaized shots a few months ago.

These shots are probably at least 2 to 3 months old. Some of them older.

 

[nAo]

I don't think it's the best thing we have seen on ps3 so far, but it's certainly getting better overtime, and I also can see why ppl love it and why some hate it, their art direction is controversial for sure.
To be honest some shots look very good..other shots..well, not very good..but it's kind of growing on me. It's really one of those cases where you want to susped your judice until you get the final game..

 

[mrcorbo]

I've used simple fractal noise to generate the landscape, a simple 1 dimensional wave to generate the waves, two simple fractal noise textures for the water and ground bump maps, simple exponential fog, a single light source with a simple shadow map, and a Phong shader with a 'facing ratio' control on the self-illumination (so that the more a polygon faces away from the camera, the more it's cosidered to be lit regardless of the lights in the scene). And a simple bloom filter in Photoshop that's not even HDR-based.

He didn't create the new image from scratch. He did some touch-ups onto the image.
1 hour is too long for that kind of touch-up and it turned out to be worse.

How could you possibly not understand the above quote from Laa-Yosh to mean that this image was in fact created from scratch?

 

[Laa-Yosh]

Sure you didn't read my comments.
I said

He didn't create the new image from scratch. He did some touch-ups onto the image.
1 hour is too long for that kind of touch-up and it turned out to be worse.

I did create the image from scratch... two polygon planes, some displacement to create water waves and hills, simple shaders with fractal textures, render without antialias, then add bloom in Photoshop...

It's actually quite interesting that some guys say it looks a lot worse then the original shots, while others say that I've just manipulated an original shot, though...

 

[mckmas8808]

I don't think it's the best thing we have seen on ps3 so far, but it's certainly getting better overtime, and I also can see why ppl love it and why some hate it, their art direction is controversial for sure.
To be honest some shots look very good..other shots..well, not very good..but it's kind of growing on me. It's really one of those cases where you want to susped your judice until you get the final game..

And Jezus Christ man I can't wait till Sony unveils your game. Because really we've seen WAAAAY more of Lair than Heavenly Sword. Tells me your game is some time off from release. I hope we see more next month.

 

[rounin]

I don't think it's the best thing we have seen on ps3 so far, but it's certainly getting better overtime, and I also can see why ppl love it and why some hate it, their art direction is controversial for sure.
To be honest some shots look very good..other shots..well, not very good..but it's kind of growing on me. It's really one of those cases where you want to susped your judice until you get the final game..

Coming from you, it doesn't really mean much because your "we" would be different from everyone else's "we". Certainly it wouldn't be an understatement to say many people are hoping that Sony will show more of what their first/second party developers have cooked up after all these months of radio silence

 

[Laa-Yosh]

Have you seen the desert, snow, or jungle areas yet? OKAY THEN!

I'd like to see them... if they look better, why do we have to look at old images?

 

[mckmas8808]

I'd like to see them... if they look better, why do we have to look at old images?

Because sometimes Sony does crazy things with their marketing. Look at Heavenly Sword.

 

[rounin]

I should probably follow this game more closely : I had no idea it was an open-world and I had no idea there was going to be other distinctly different areas.

 

[mckmas8808]

I should probably follow this game more closely : I had no idea it was an open-world and I had no idea there was going to be other distinctly different areas.

Yep. It's sorta GTA like. Fly where you want when you want. That's the crazy thing about the hate that I don't understand with this game.

Laa-Yosh is sorta different. He's arguing against the art side. But technially come on. We ALL know it's doing big things.

 

[Capeta]

Because sometimes Sony does crazy things with their marketing.

You mean like show target render CGI disguised as realtime stuff?

 

[Crayon]

But that area does look like a rocky coast and reminds me of highway 1. What more do you want to add to it ? Coconut trees and sea-shells ?



I know I shouldn't eat at In-n-Out Burgers too often. I came back from lunch and couldn't understand this paragraph no matter how I read it.

A) Coconuts and sea shells.... I think you're onto something. Some scantily clad women wouldn't hurt. Better make them on the young side, I think. And an In and Out Burger would add to the atmosphere.

B) I just got back from breakfast. It's 5 in the afternoon. And I can't understand that paragraph, either. =(

I think I meant to say that, I can see all the things "bad" about the pics since they've been pointed out to me, yet I look at them and still think "thars some good graffiks!". And I'm not alone.

 

[mckmas8808]

I think I meant to say that, I can see all the things "bad" about the pics since they've been pointed out to me, yet I look at them and still think "thars some good graffiks!". And I'm not alone.

That's because the same can be done to Gears of War, PGR3, etc. but to do that is stupid. Everything can't be perfect. But the true question is does the overall picture look good? And to me that answer is yes.

Now all we need from this game is good animation and a steady 30 fps.