Console forum double standards

Discussion in 'Site Feedback' started by eastmen, Jul 6, 2020.

  1. eastmen

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    There are a lot of spin off threads in the console forum. They seem to happen frequently but there are no standards for why they exist and often times have bias thread titles

    however I'd like to point to these threads

    https://forum.beyond3d.com/threads/...ed-last-generation-lockhart-switch-out.61856/
    "
    What if lower end hardware was targeted last generation? *LockHart Switch-Out*"

    the first post is a rant against a mid step console , second post answers the question using an example of an extremely successful console that fits that description currently on the market.

    of course the thread title (which may have been edited after the second post ) specifically calls out a single console manufacturer's rumored product


    Then we have
    https://forum.beyond3d.com/threads/portable-ps5-based-off-lockart-rumors.61864/

    This thread that was started which is a positive post on a speculated ps5 portable. Pointing out the double standard gets posts deleted and an angry rant from a mod

    So why the double standard ? Since the portable ps5 speculation is based off lockhart as the thread title implies why is this not simply in one of the lockhart threads ? Why not rename the first thread with ps5 portable also in the title or better yet remove lockhart from the title ?

    The moderator accused me of console warring but I'm not the one making these biased titles. What's more the deleted post by me had likes. So i'm not the only one that feels that way.

    There are also other posts that seem to support my thinking also

    https://forum.beyond3d.com/posts/2138255/ poster wondering why an entire thread was made for a wouldn't it be cool tweet

    https://forum.beyond3d.com/posts/2138094/ here is another pointing out the size of a ps5 and suddenly it will be portable


    What's more perplexing is that we have massive threads for these types of rumors already

    https://forum.beyond3d.com/threads/...n-rumors-and-discussions-post-gdc-2020.61645/
    https://forum.beyond3d.com/threads/...-price-point-and-marketing-2020.60836/page-20
    https://forum.beyond3d.com/threads/switch-2-speculation.61414/

    Then there are the lockhart threads themselves which i will just save time linking too.
     
  2. Shifty Geezer

    Shifty Geezer uber-Troll!
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    Double standard from whom?

    They also aren't positive or negative. The first post in the LH spin-off thread is an individual disliking the idea presenting a rhetorical discussion on what the impact would have been this generation with a lower-spec version a console. It's a discussion on that rhetorical concept. The PS5 Portable post is a a derail about PS5 portable from the LH discussion spawned off to allow people to discuss the notion of a PS5 portable.
    Because you post was about the platforms. you said:

    Its interesting how suddenly a lower spec machine can be such a great idea when it comes from the right company

    Your post isn't about the subject but the fact that in your opinion, different platforms get different treatment. Had your post been about PS5 portable, it wouldn't have been removed.

    So what? Some people took a tweet and ran with it. We aren't here to tell people what ideas they can and can't discuss.

    That has nothing to do with double standards. That's an individual expressing their personal opinion on the viability of a PS5Portable, in a thread about PS5 portable. What's the problem? Here's my own argument that a PS5 Portable seems a completely unrealistic option - that's my own personal opinion.

    I don't understand what these links are supposed to illustrate.

    At this point though, you really need to be clear on who is engaged in a double standard. All I'm seeing is a bunch of individual topics discussed by individuals. I don't see bias in the thread titles being spawned. I don't see any negative or positive spin - both threads contain for and against arguments from contributors.
     
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  3. iroboto

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    I mean, if this is the basis of your post; I think some of the titles are sort of a cutsie play. I don't think there is intentional bias or double standard. The topics are split according to keeping discussions within themselves as opposed to having 50 different discussions happneing in the same thread.

    There are pros and cons for normalization. That's something the mods will need to decide, if ti's too normalized the forum isn't moving on a thread together on all the threads, then people are bound to miss information on cross thread talk. On the other hand, when there are too many discussions ti's really hard to follow - in this case I find Resetera very hard to follow.

    You can just ask for a thread title change to be more serious and less cute. I don't think there is double standard here. Threads should indicate where it spawned from; users following a discussion but had the posts moved would not know where to go next.
     
  4. BRiT

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  5. BRiT

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    Now as a normal forum goer, if I'm in a Sony thread about a product, I do not want to see constant Microsoft products at all. Likewise for seeing constant Sony mentions in any Microsoft thread. Same for going into an Android thread and seeing it filled with Apple talk.

    The only time its suitable is if it's a general comparison thread or about the general industry and not about specific products.
     
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  6. Shifty Geezer

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    eastmen has said in PM that the double standard is with the moderators. Firstly, if the issue is the moderators, it should be posted as site feedback and not mid-thread. Your exact post was this:

    but then ps5 and this whole gen would be held back !

    Its interesting how suddenly a lower spec machine can be such a great idea when it comes from the right company
    You are replying to orangpelupa and talk about a double standard. If your complaint isn't aimed at him, there's absolutely nothing in you post to say as much. Please be sure to indicate who you are addressing and keep response in a relevant places so their interpretation is correct.

    I also can't see how that is a criticism of thread titling as opposed to a criticism of board-wide prejudice. Your post is basically saying the board has a double standard is saying LH is a bad idea and PS5 is a good idea.

    As for the thread titles, I can't see anything untoward. Both are laying out the conversation intentions:

    What if lower end hardware was targeted last generation?

    Portable PS5?


    The only difference is the spawn notification to show the threads are derived from another discussion and the OP isn't a thread opener. *LockHart Switch-Out* vs.*based off Lockhart rumors*

    This just shows the thread they are from. If it were me, I'd have used *spawn*, but I can't see anything biased or 'double standard' about the choices above. There's nothing positive or negative in the titles. The opening post is just wherever the mod decided to cut it out from the source and isn't particular indicative of anything. And, as I've said before, even if a post is 'negative', it's only as the POV of that poster.

    I would agree with you if the thread titles were something like, "Lockhart is a lame idea that'd gimp game development for the entire generation - discuss" and "wouldn't it be awesome to have a PlayStation 5 Portable that plays all PS5 games?!?!" but they aren't. Nothing like.
     
  7. eastmen

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    I believe that thread title was already changed

    There is an obviously negative thread with a companies console in it. The first post in the thread is an obviously negative take on what it would mean. There are already multiple other threads to discuss such a product in. We don't need to have a new thread with a named console that may or may not exist and that we only know rumors about at this point.

    I'll have to read it, I haven't seen this post yet.

    If you read the post about lockhart that I linked too it would do just as well as a general thread about a speculated console without naming a console. It would do even better in one of the other threads I posted above in my first post. I don't see a reason to have a specific thread about a rumored piece of hardware.


    If the thread title is supposed to be cute make sure it fits with the tone of the actual post.
     
  8. eastmen

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    Your proving my point because you refuse to put the full thread title in Blue Bold. Your omitting it because of its negative connotation. Your also not addressing why it has its own thread instead of being part of one of the other threads I listed.

    So yes I believe the mods left the full title up and thus the bias is on the part of the mods. You also removed a post of mine that had like because people agreed. You then felt the need to publicly call me out and when you didn't like my responses you deleted those also.


    I don't see what is wrong with my original post.

    Its in reference to another discussion that seems to be allowed on this forum. After all it has its own thread about the implications it would have had on last gen while calling out the code name for an ms project. It also has to do with its impact on the ps5 which is also in the thread title of the thread i posted in. At the same time it points out that lockhart holding back the industry warrants its own thread on this forum but a portable ps5 which would possibly be even lower spec than lockhart is getting its own positive thread. Like I said you couldn't have moved the discussion back into the Lower end hardware thread targting lockhart and change the name. Or any of the speculation threads that already exist , some of which i posted.

    So again - negative post implicating MS hardware in the title is okay. Posting about a piece of hypothetical sony hardware inside of a thread about said hardware is not okay. Sums up the bias .
     
  9. BRiT

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    I guess it all comes down to organization and trying to keep threads on topics. This tries to avoid any sort of huge widely topical threads. Having vast topical threads makes it impossible for casual forum users and even myself to figure out what is inside a thread. To me it's easier to tell where I can find topics by quickly looking at the thread names. If it's not in it's own thread, then I have to go searching for particular keywords in a thread to see if it's even mentioned.

    Now imagine coming back to threads after an entire generation where it's 6 or 7 years later. It's easier to see the posts most directly related to something when it's in it's own thread.

    It's also why most websites and news sites have separate articles for each topic. Otherwise we'd have 1 thread for all topics, taken to the other extreme.

    As to when it's time to split something out to it's own thread, I tend to wait until it feels like there's enough critical mass around the concept. It's purely a gut feel thing, nothing quantitative like after N posts within Y timeframe within Z relevancy.

    I tend to fall on the side of being semi-organized.
     
  10. Globalisateur

    Globalisateur Globby
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    Beyond 3D is a private forum moderated by a small group of moderators. As moderators are humans, and like in every others similar forums, there are some editorial stances that are applied.
     
  11. Shifty Geezer

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    I don't refuse. I talk about the two aspects separately to break down their contributions.
    I don't see what you dislike about the spawn notifications. I didn't omit them for any reason. I talked about both spawn notifications. But why is *LockHart Switch-Out* bad but *based off Lockhart rumors* good? :???:

    Because they were off topic! You used a post directed at an individual to complain about the moderators, with a comment that didn't in any way explain you were complaining about the titles. I removed the post and gave you a notification why. It then went into a public discussion because you posted it publicly. I then removed further off-topic discussion and directed you to lodge a complaint about moderation in the Site Feedback forum. And now you're trying to express my actions as a wrong! ;)

    How can anyone reading it know what it's about if you haven't explained as much? How can anyone know that a reply to orangpelupa isn't directed at him and your complaint of double standards doesn't include him?

    You're reading so much crazy weirdness into this. You are somehow seeing *LockHart Switch-Out* as a negative when it doesn't contain any negative connotations, and somehow seeing *based off Lockhart rumors* as some sort of positive.

    Maybe that would have been a better choice. I don't know, I didn't spawn them. But there's nothing wrong with the choices made or the titles or the content.

    Now you're complaing about the OP content of those threads and not the titles.

    I have absolutely no idea what your complaint it and I can't see any coherency in your arguments - heck, part of your logic is that someone liked your post - but I'll change the titles to vanilla *spawn* if that'll make you happy and hope that solves the problem.

    ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
     
  12. eastmen

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    Its odd wouldn't you say that we can have a thread about general rumors with over 60 pages of reponses where all sorts of rumors would go but now for a ps5 portable idea we suddenly need its own thread? There are no rumors out there from any reliable source confirming or hinting at a product. At least with lockhart we have heard about developer profiles for the hardware , dev kits going out , code name showing up in code and so on and so forth.

    I also don't understand why we are attaching names of products to threads where the intent of the thread is negative. The title has now been changed but by having the name of the console in the title even as spawn information it denotes that the conversation is about that console and the first post that created the thread paints a rather negative situation and ties it through the thread title to that product. It be similar to a thread that started something like Thermal issues in consoles (PS5) and then the originating post is imagine last gen having the largest ever console produced to cool a console who's clock speeds a variable just to keep up with the competition.
     
  13. BRiT

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    I didn't view any of the threads as being negative towards Lockhart, regardless of the initial post that spawned the thread. As more people participate the more it takes on a general neutral tone.

    With that said, I do see and understand both view points. Maybe part of that is growing numb to people being people and showing their own personalities in the posts. "Oh, that's just Bob being Bob." *shrug*

    Different people, different views. Just a part of human nature, or so I'm told as being a robot I don't have any insights into that. :-D
     
  14. eastmen

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    The aspects aren't separate and are part of the same title. When you read the title with lockhart in it and then look at the first post which paints a negative narrative to a console specifically like lockhart but last gen what else would be implied. The title has already been changed I see so someone agrees. But something better would be the original title and then (speculation on how a lower end console might have faired in previous generations) Not to mention that the premise of the post has no bearing on this generation since something like lockhart or ps5 lite would be bc with the previous generation of consoles something that would have been largely impossible last generation.

    My first post was on topic and removed.

    My response was a general response since his post was about how great such a situation is in contrast to a large thread about how the situation would be bad from another console manufacturer

    Very simply put when you read the thread title and then the first post of that thread which is negative it paints lockhart as negative. You can read my response to Brit above for an example.

    See above


    The Original post and the title are hand in hand. You read a topic of an article and then read the story. If the article is negative it will cast what you read inside with a negative light.

    When you read the thread title with lockhart inside it and then read what a bad situation it would have been last generation , the two go hand in hand.

    The problem is that a negative thread shouldn't be tied to a product , esp an unannounced one while another product is treated differently. I already gave an example of a better thread title.
     
  15. Shifty Geezer

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    Then you're reading wrong. The title didn't have lockhart in it. The tag telling us where the discussion came from had LH in it, but the subject is independent.

    Similarly, we don't control the order of ideas are submitted, so if you grade a thread as positive or negative based on the first post, you're doing it wrong. That OP is just the opening opinion. eg. A conversation, "Which was the worst console in history? *Wii U rejects*" that opens with a post from another discussion, "WiiU was far and away the worst console ever,.." and then followed by 200 pages of thousands of people extolling the virtues of WiiU and claiming it their favourite console would not and could not be construed as a negative thread for WiiU.

    You should not be judging a thread as 'positive' or 'negative' from the title, especially not sing the pointer to it's origin thread as any indicator of positive or negative. You shouldn't even be judging it as positive or negative anyway. It's a discussion.

    No. Did you not read my post? I said I changed it anyway to make you happy. I don't see the problem.

    That's a discussion point. this has nothing to do with your concerns over the title and representation of LH. Honestly, it looks like you just don't like that discussion because it talks about products you are too close to.

    I'm about to get angry at this. If you can't see what's wrong with your post, there are issues with your posting on this board. I don't know how I can spell it out any differently.

    Your complaint is that the content of the board, as denoted by the choice of thread titles from spawns, was wrong. That's a Site Feedback complaint not directed at orangpelupa. But you replied to orangpelupa so by association, you were talking to him, or others in agreement with him, in that thread. "My response was a general response". Then you should have labelled it as such so we knew! If you aren't clear in who you are communicating with, don't go blaming the moderators for removing content as misplaced. Although in this case it was misplaced because your comment should have been in Site Feedback and directed at the moderators.

    If your not willing/able to realise that replying to someone with content not directed at them is wrong, I dunno how can you expect us to come around to thinking that the order of posts in a thread define whether it's positive and negative and to enforce a 'all first posts are positive' protocol or something.

    I get what you're saying, but that's not how threads work. They are a whole discussion, not a first post. It's a discussion, not a magazine article.

    What's actually happened here is a discussion about LH had divided opinion. MrFox created an analogy referencing this generation. That spawned a side discussion about what the analogy would be which a moderator spawned into its own thread with a reference to the source. You see a mention of a 'Lockhart' thread and the first post is describing an under-powered current-gen console, and your MS's affiliation feels uncomfortable with that despite it being a neutral discussion once it's spun out.

    I can understand how you see that.

    1) You shouldn't, it's a spawned out thread.
    2) If you have issues with a thread title, you should contact the mod team and not post a 'general comment' in a thread, especially after quoting a poster. There's no way that can be understood as anything other than a reply to the poster.
    3) It's not a double standard. There's no strategy in removing posts for a new thread. We just cut where the new thread appears to begin. Here's an example: PlayStation 5 reveal reactions *spawn
    There were no complaints about this being a 'negative thread' for PS5. After several minutes, I've stopped looking for more because there just aren't any. There aren't a host of 'positive' and 'negative' threads. You've a sample size of two threads and you've decided there's a double standard!

    If you'd just PM'd the mods and asked for the association to be removed, I'd be fine, but now I'm grumpy. I've wasted a bunch of time trying 1) to understand what you're talking about and 2) to see if there really is a problem. And through all this process, you've just repeated you've done nothing wrong, not even admitting posting a general remark in a reply is confusing!

    The thread title has been changed. That's as much as needs doing IMO. If any other mod wants to do more, like find a different starting post from the LH discussion that's all 'positive' and move that to the top of the thread, or move a 'PS5 portable is a crap idea' post to the top of that thread, have fun. I think this is a load of old hoo-ha about nothing from someone who can't leave their work at home when coming here and is seeing our discussions as part of their corporate marketing. I'm not going to advocate any sort of controls over the representation of any products from any companies (outside of stomping down on trolling).
     
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