LAIR Thread - * Rules: post #469

[zed]

You can predict 90% of the responses in a thread without having to read it. Just look at the username and ablib away.

true thats how i do it also, look at user name + then is it a ps3 or xb360 title, once u have this info u can quite accurately predict the users general response

You seem to have missed two facts: I did this in just one hour, and Lair is admitted to cost $15-20 million... One would expect a little more difference between the two efforts.

not really as your shot is using 100% of the cpu + yet still takes seconds to render, the lair shot has to render at 30fps + plus has got a lot of other stuff going on the background, AI, culling etc

WRT the game itself i believe its gonna be either a huge hit or a total flop
yes the fire sux it seems as if theyre using one,one blending which looks crap on light colored backgrounds
in saying that ive gotta admit this definitely is an interesting title

 

[Bagel seed]

Here's another case of a thread where people are holding a developer to every screen released, and every bit of PR hype.. one sentence or ten. Personally, for me, that's just the marketing game that's being played by these devs and publishers. To be honest, I don't think it's really good for us enthusiast-types to take so much stock in (although if we didn't we wouldn't have so many wonderful discussions ). I suppose I just have a greater tolerance for these developer 'lies'. If they're quoted as saying 'huge 1000-solider battles' over and over again, in every interview for a year, only to have 100-solider battles in the final game, then yeah I guess I'll have a laugh and won't buy the game

I remember that early trailer and it looked impressive. Does the game look like it now? Not from the released screens, no. But I still think it looks good in other ways. Maybe their early stuff was just tech demo hype. Is it too soon to pass judgement on them based on the perceived differences? I suppose that's up to your personal level of commitment or mental investment into what these devs may have 'promised' you via the media.

I do agree about that fire effect though. It looks cheap and they should try to make it look like it's coming out more flame-like rather than jets of water style.

 

[AlNom]

So who gave me a bad rep point for "Not adding to the thread in a meaningful way." ? I guess I am at fault though, but use highlight on the rest of the post to see what I really thought

I did. I apologize now that I've seen your white text. I neg rep'd the post because you said in strong words that you did not approve of the screenshots and you failed to say why you thought so.

*grey text or small text would make it easier to find your joke.

If one of you super mods could remove the bad rep for that case, I would appreciate it.

 

[rounin]

Two things that stand out which aren't at all dependent on how screens were captured, are the modelling and lighting. The current dragons don't look a patch on those originals, and the current lighting is...well, it looks like PS2 level texture-based lighting to me. You can ignore all the other effects as being affected by the originals capture quality, but you can't miss the lighting and model detail. Compare this old image with this latest one (fourth one down). All the fine detail and realistic lighting is gone. The latest image doesn't even seem to have normal mapping on its belly. The light is coming from somewhere left and up judging by the leg and knight, but the shading on the belly scales doesn't match that.

It's just weird!

That's true. Now that you've pointed out that picture, it does seem to be a little weird. But given that theres not direct comparable screenshot it is kind of hard to draw many conclusions. I do agree that that older screenshot has a dragon that seems to have more detail.

I did. I apologize now that I've seen your white text. I neg rep'd the post because you said in strong words that you did not approve of the screenshots and you failed to say why you thought so.

Haha its ok. I was prepared for someone to give me bad feedback. As long as there was no bad intent or standing misunderstandings, all is good

 

[Hardknock]

In this case, Factor 5 have dug themselves a PR hole! They have talked up a lot of what they're doing, and showed an awesome trailer. People are keen to see the real game, and when it falls short of what Factor 5 have shown and said in the past, it's like 'What the...Dickens?!'

Basically, people swarm(ed) onto Screenshots from Lair for PS3 expecting to see mind-numbingly good visuals, a lot in part to Factor 5's reputation, and that's just not happening. So begins the amalysis of what's wrong and where things might be improved and whether the original targets were over-optimistic (or perhaps, how too optimistic they were!). Just revisit this interview to see Eggbrecht gushing, remind yourself of the early screenshots, and then come back to these screenshots and tell me you're right with him in his opinions of power! Especially when he says previous gobsmacking renderings were taken from in-engine. If he was doing that then, why'd's it look like this now? Something PS3 has suffered a fair bit of.

(I've just skimmed through that interview again. For all the supposed technical competancy of their engine, I can't say I'm seeing much at all. How can Eggbrecht boast about their fire effect?!)

Exactly.

I'm taking a gander at the screens for the first time and the Water is the only great looking aspect. Everything else is just... ugh. The modeling look decent but the texturing on upclose and far away objects is horrible. Lighting leaves much to be desired (no hdr?).

I really wish this would get dropped down to 720p if that would somehow improve the memory available for more detailed textures.

Isn't this slated for Spring release? Not much time to make many changes I guess.

 

[Moonblade]

See, being a coder you can tell that there's not much on the technology side. Being an artist, I can tell that there isn't much on that side either - nice dragon models with pretty good source art (digitized maquettes as I've heard) but basically that's all.

Being a gamer, I like the looks of this game.

So the questions that jump into my mind are, how can this happen to such a high profile title; and why do people still find it that amazing? If it's this easy to please the audience, then most of the effort going into the asset creation could be a simple waste of resources.

It's just a matter of opinions, it's not like I'm easily pleased when it comes to how a game looks. Like you said, the dragons could use some self shadowing etc... but I think that the whole picture looks fine. I think you're disappointed mainly because your expectations were too high to begin with.

If you guys would let go of that 'zomg this factor 5 game is supposed to be the ultimate demonstration of PS3's superiority with hundreds of dragons on screen!', you would never criticize it like this.

 

[homy]

No; you've obviously already made up your mind on the issue and won't accept anything I have to say.
I've already spent too much time on this topic and it's clearly been in vain, no reason to get into any more debates.

Try me, I'm open.

 

[Cheezdoodles]

Try me, I'm open.

Your not open at all, you come into this thread with a statement about Gears of War (before anybody else mentioned it), and came here in "damage control" mode.

What Laa-Yosh showed, was that the environment and the water, isnt very spectacular. Further he complained about the shadowing, and explained why.

You, tried to ridicule his 1 hour quick paintshop job, which was just made to show how simple it is to get a result close to that, with virtually no work. Factor 5 has a budget of 15-20$ million, with such a budget, and virtually no storage limitations, (AND after bragging about how detailed the landmass will be), it should be leaps and bounds better than what laa-Yosh made up fooling around with no pay.

He mentioned the goals Factor 5 set in interviews etc, and felt like this is far from the end result they were implying. That was his point.

 

[Crossbar]

Does anyone have some information about the release date of this crappy looking game then?

 

[jonabbey]

Your not open at all, you come into this thread with a statement about Gears of War (before anybody else mentioned it), and came here in "damage control" mode.

What Laa-Yosh showed, was that the environment and the water, isnt very spectacular. Further he complained about the shadowing, and explained why.

You, tried to ridicule his 1 hour quick paintshop job, which was just made to show how simple it is to get a result close to that, with virtually no work. Factor 5 has a budget of 15-20$ million, with such a budget, and virtually no storage limitations, (AND after bragging about how detailed the landmass will be), it should be leaps and bounds better than what laa-Yosh made up fooling around with no pay.

He mentioned the goals Factor 5 set in interviews etc, and felt like this is far from the end result they were implying. That was his point.

I don't understand why it is a knock against Factor 5 that they are using an easy to accomplish (in Paintshop) effect in their real-time, lots-of-things-happening game.

It looks good. The water is really striking, and I don't recall seeing a similar effect in a live game. I'm Joe Consumer, not Joe Graphics Developer, but it looks good to me.

 

[mckmas8808]

I'm a modeler, I'm not skilled at creating landscapes at all* - and that is what I actually wanted to show. Lair's landscapes and lighting have very little artistic value, look like they've been rushed, and all this is really strage from a game that has an AA level budget (I think Factor 5 talked about $15-20 million) and promotion. A team of skilled artists should produce imagery that's a lot more complex and pleasing to the eye.



See, being a coder you can tell that there's not much on the technology side
So the questions that jump into my mind are, how can this happen to such a high profile title; and why do people still find it that amazing?

See what you seem to forget is that there is no other open-ended game that looks better than this. Open-ended like GTA. Think about it.

 

[patsu]

If you guys would let go of that 'zomg this factor 5 game is supposed to be the ultimate demonstration of PS3's superiority with hundreds of dragons on screen!', you would never criticize it like this.

I don't think they can let go. I have similar opinion as dfan.

I like the original trailer and concept shots. They gave me a sense and vision of what they were/are trying to achieve. Coming from a different industry, I believe an early prototype/render like that gives the team an identity and vision to shoot for... so the suits (execs), bean counters (finance controller especially !), weirdos (artists), geeks (techies) and paranoids (the project managers) can work towards something common. I supposed these guys may come and go. When new chaps join the circus, they'd have to stick to the game.

I can't imagine people actually want them to tone down the fire in the original videos. If they were to swap it for the current fire-like death ray, it doesn't give the right idea to the team and audience. It would remind me of Godzilla's fire (A different kind of game).

While we have not seen hundreds of dragons yet, that scene did give me a sense of scale the team is trying to achieve (What's the big deal with hundreds of flying dragons anyway ?). At this moment, I still get that sense by the large number of soldiers, smokes, arrows, waving flags, waters, and faraway dragons (Check the 720p screens)... plus Oprah and her super-sized cousins. The original concepts did not show the super-sized critters right ? So did anyone here give them credits for doing it ? The waters, not highlighted in the original concepts, are nice too.

Here're some responses from GAF's chespace (affiliated with MS, I think ?):
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=5647464&postcount=14
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=5647533&postcount=40

The art direction in LAIR certainly is very special. You couldn't achieve this level of consistency and quality across the board without a strong aesthetic vision.

This game has vision.

Listen, I don't like the fire as much as you do... and I hope F5 still have time to fix it. I also hope that the gameplay is good and the animation is smooth enough. I'm a graphics noob and can't detect some of the more subtle shading details.

But to try to discredit work of art and technology like this is em... strange to say the least.

Even if they have failed in an earlier attempt and are rushing for v2.0, I still think it's a decent effort. I mean "rushness" is common in large projects in 1 form or another. And from the GDC 2007 presentation, it seems that the work is more than just simple maps and lighting that some make it out to be.

Does anyone have Factor 5's GDC 2006 presentation slides ? I tried to watch the latest video interview but it's just too long and boring for me. I still fail to watch it end-to-end for the 13th time.

I'm off to late lunch now. You guys take care.

EDIT: btw, how old/new are these screens ?

 

[Shifty Geezer]

If you guys would let go of that 'zomg this factor 5 game is supposed to be the ultimate demonstration of PS3's superiority with hundreds of dragons on screen!', you would never criticize it like this.

Oh, I'd still be grumbling! The lighting's just plain wrong. Doesn't matter who made the game or what they've shown earlier. However, it's also very inconsistent. This pic shows self-shadowing and convincing lighting on the Sea Worm (lighting from lower-left side)...

Whereas this one shows the same critter looking phoney (lighting from top right)...

If the final game picks up as well as it's likely too, it'll look very good. And I hope they nail the fluid dynamics. That still doesn't stop some pics being wrong though, and I'll continue to dislike the pics and point out what's wrong with 'em 'til they're fixed!

 

[slackpiv]

You, tried to ridicule his 1 hour quick paintshop job, which was just made to show how simple it is to get a result close to that, with virtually no work. Factor 5 has a budget of 15-20$ million, with such a budget, and virtually no storage limitations, (AND after bragging about how detailed the landmass will be), it should be leaps and bounds better than what laa-Yosh made up fooling around with no pay.

Well his paintshop job is unforuntely not real-time being rendered into an actual virtual environment. For example any artist can do the same for gears of war using maya or any set of tool. It proves nothing like nao said.

 

[rounin]

Whereas this one shows the same critter looking phoney (lighting from top right)...

Right now I have to admit that I was not aware that they were even the same creature

For the "odd looking" picture, though, is it not possible that the light source is lower and coming from the right side of the picture, like during sunrise or sunset? It would still be odd though, considering the lit up sky in the background. Perhaps pictures from different builds? All in all, it is a rather weird phenomenon and I agree that we should point it out I hope the Factor 5 team reads this or nAo passes this on to them

 

[mckmas8808]

Why? I really can't see it... and if we're at it, whatever happened to the hundreds of dragons on screen?

I'm starting to believe that what we see is Lair 2.0, where the first version had to be scrapped for some reason (unreachable goals?), and F5 is now rushing to complete a game that's completely different from their original vision.

Jezus Christ you are horrible when it comes to this game. I swear you know somebody in the industry that works on this game and you 2 must have some hate for each other. The game isn't even freaking out and you are saying they scraped the original game.

Have you seen the desert, snow, or jungle areas yet? OKAY THEN!

 

[Paul]

Are some of the replies really serious in this thread? The game looks really great and in motion it will look even better, which seems to be how things go for these new consoles. Games are so so in pictures, and much better in motion. All of the cherry picking over these screenshots just further outlays the agendas of said people when it comes down to it, it's so transparently clear.

 

[avaya]

Jezus Christ you are horrible when it comes to this game. I swear you know somebody in the industry that works on this game and you 2 must have some hate for each other. The game isn't even freaking out and you are saying they scraped the original game.

Have you seen the desert, snow, or jungle areas yet? OKAY THEN!

No I don't think he has a vendetta against this game. I am partial to the Sony platform and I agree with him.

I don't think Factor 5 does bullshots or pre-rendered video and calls it realtime. The demonstrations shown at TGS '05 and GDC '06 far exceed the stuff we're seeing right now (those were blatently realtime since they were manipulated live). The dragon models were another level.

Something clearly changed, or maybe those were just demonstration runs of what is possible but they were unable to achieve it (in sufficient time/budget) as their contracted schedule or project schedule demanded.

Quite frankly I am certainly not overly impressed by this game. Even in motion. It looks like someone smeared vaseline over it. That might be clichéd but it's the truth. I've read the GAF thread on these new screens and some people are calling it the best graphics on PS3 or even next-gen (Final Fantasy XIII kills it IMO). This leaves me genuinely questioning their sanity or maybe you guys see something in it I don't.

Maybe it's all to do with the artistic design and the colour palette. I am not going to excuse a games graphics because it has hundreds of enemies on screen, or it does lots of crazy stuff in realtime. If the end result is not visually striking I'm going to call it poor. Maybe that's ignorant, maybe that's not. But we're talking about FACTOR 5. I expect a lot more from them and frankly I can't understand why this game looks so bad.

Hopefully with the new Ice and Jungle levels we’ll see something different and it will put a whole new light on the game, but right now, apart from the water, it is certainly not up to Factor 5 standards.

 

[homy]

Your not open at all, you come into this thread with a statement about Gears of War (before anybody else mentioned it), and came here in "damage control" mode.

What Laa-Yosh showed, was that the environment and the water, isnt very spectacular. Further he complained about the shadowing, and explained why.

You, tried to ridicule his 1 hour quick paintshop job, which was just made to show how simple it is to get a result close to that, with virtually no work. Factor 5 has a budget of 15-20$ million, with such a budget, and virtually no storage limitations, (AND after bragging about how detailed the landmass will be), it should be leaps and bounds better than what laa-Yosh made up fooling around with no pay.

He mentioned the goals Factor 5 set in interviews etc, and felt like this is far from the end result they were implying. That was his point.

Geez, for one I didn't say Gears is bad before he said Lair is bad. He said Gears is superb that's why I brought up the screenshot so he can tell me why Gears is better.
He spent 1 hour paintshop on top of an already good image and made it worse. I don't know what to tell you. Human factor versus algorithms.

 

[idsn6]

Apparently Factor 5 needs to release new screens of wet dragons in the rain with a high specular component, like all the early screens that are now being held up as tangibly better.
But then they'll be lambasted with complaints about shiny shiny dragons again.
What to do, what to do.