LAIR Thread - * Rules: post #469

[Laa-Yosh]

You're kidding me right?

Wanted to ask the same thing.

That picture high above the city in the jeux-france shots...

Again - I don't care about it if its this ugly.

And fixing the lighting, well, which of the other games had realtime global illumination again with fluidly transitioning day-night cycles?

Lair has that? They've pretty much keep it out of the screenshots and movies then. And again, I don't care about the technology if it looks bad.

I haven't heard about them for any of the PS3 games at least, but maybe I missed something. In the context of this engine, I don't think it's a simple matter of 'fixing' the lighting and shaders. You're the expert, but I'd even question your 'making better textures' as a feasible option at this point, when they have to conform to these requirements.

If they've built a lighting engine that does not allow them to create good looking images, then what's the point in it??

I wish they'd hire you, so you'd get a chance to actually prove you could 'fix' their game.

We've already worked on two nextgen games, both already mentioned here on B3D as well - and in both cases they've contacted us... Textures for characters in one case and complete characters in the other.

 

[Laa-Yosh]

You complain about the lighting, but R&C's is worse than some PS2 games. There's no self-shadowing, not projected shadows, not even a change in shading when he goes from outside to inside. Textures aren't particulary high res either (and that's not taking into account the completely unshaded grass). For what they've shown, it doesn't come even close to Lair in scope. Thousands of enemies on screen, 10km + wide levels, unified lighting system, 1080p, etc...

But it looks good. Get the point?

Seriously, it even seems personal. Did you apply for a job with F5 and they rejected you or something?

No, but Naughty Dog offered me a job once a few years ago. Still won't make me partial in this...

 

[Laa-Yosh]

And also, by what are saying do you think Rockstar should fix GTA4s Textures, shaders and lighting because Heavenly Sowrd, R&C and Halo 3 look better and they have a big scale aswel?

GTA4 looks a lot better than Lair, too.

 

[Laa-Yosh]

And now for something completely different...

 

[patsu]

All games feature view distances up to several kilometers. Halo has some large battleships, HS will have armies of thousands of soldiers. Halo will have flying for sure.

If you move Master Chief up 20,000 feet and look down in any level. How many objects are there to show and animate ? Can you move freely and quickly in any direction on a 32km^2 area, land and interact with the objects/environments ?

In previous Halo games, flying is always in a relatively empty space, or in a ravine. In Lair, we have the whole shebang from ships in the ocean, dragons in the air and land animals on the ground.

As for large battleships, can you approach it from far and interact with it up close ? In my experiences, Halo 1 and 2 switched to a cut scene to show the landing (or crash landing).

All these lost opportunities represent possible gameplay elements (i.e. worm hunt, dragon CQC , landing on another dragon, then switch to fighting land animals or sinking ships in an instant).

I have not seen HS's large battlefield yet (or even Halo 3), so I can't really comment on them. I think the amount of freedom and interactable objects makes a difference.

The water in Lair is a joke compared to Halo...

If you say so... I'd say they serve different purposes. I also don't know how much water there is in Halo 3, and whether it is another "controlled" world as opposed to Lair's open world approach.

But the point is that bullet points and technology in itself cannot be used as an excuse for bad looking graphics (and boring gameplay).

Looking extremely good is only so important. Your philosophy is: "I don't care about the technology if it looks bad". Unfortunately mine is "I don't care about pristine graphics as long as the game is fun or at least takes me through an interesting journey". What Lair has is impressive enough, considering all the possibilities technology enabled. I have not tried Lair's gameplay. Have you ? My only real concern now is the SIXAXIS control.

It seems very likely that Factor 5 has gotten to excited and ambitious about their technical achievments and locked themselves into a corner where they can't create assets at a competitive quality due to time and other constraints.

Possible... doesn't mean they can't have a good game on their hands though.

EDIT: Also, I'm curious. What's wrong with Lair being a Rogue Squadron evolution (so Factor 5 can learn from their experiences) ? There are many sequels in this industry right ?

 

[Arwin]

Lair has that? They've pretty much keep it out of the screenshots and movies then. And again, I don't care about the technology if it looks bad.

Yeah, if I remember correctly it takes about 10 minutes before you notice a change, and most movies don't last that long.

If they've built a lighting engine that does not allow them to create good looking images, then what's the point in it??

Because maybe it's not about the stills? Apparently some of the levels are timed specifically at dawn/dusk so you get the dramatic transition from night to day with the rays of the sun falling across the landscape while you execute your mission. I'm excited for this because as of yet it is a rare thing in games ... I know there is a(n ugly) Le Mans game that supports this and there are probably others, but I've never played any game that does this yet myself. And it's just one of the many things the game does. Sure, maybe they can make it look better - usually with new platforms, as time progresses initially it's all about the tech as that's where there is a lot to do and to win, but as the tech pans out, the art becomes the most important way to make a game look good.

(They had an amazing 2D game by the way in the one-up show this week, that looked just stunningly beautiful. )

We've already worked on two nextgen games, both already mentioned here on B3D as well - and in both cases they've contacted us... Textures for characters in one case and complete characters in the other.

Well, like I said, I wish they'd give you a shot. It'd be interesting to see whether this is really a matter of bad art / taste, or whether this is a matter of sacrifices that had to be made for the engine. It is probably a mixture of both, but it'd be interesting to see how much of the one and how much of the other.

 

[Cheezdoodles]

Apparently some of the levels are timed specifically at dawn/dusk so you get the dramatic transition from night to day with the rays of the sun falling across the landscape while you execute your mission. I'm excited for this because as of yet it is a rare thing in games ... I know there is a(n ugly) Le Mans game that supports this and there are probably others, but I've never played any game that does this yet myself.

Tons of games simulate night to day cycles. Practically all GTA like games, and tons of others.

 

[Cheezdoodles]

You're kidding me right? which of the other games had realtime global illumination again with fluidly transitioning day-night cycles?

Lair, doesn't have realtime GI. No game has. They have faked GI done mostly through ambient occlusion but its hardly GI.

 

[one]

And now for something completely different...

http://www.penny-arcade.com/images/2007/20070518.jpg

Starships are relatively low-poly and don't animate...

 

[Crossbar]

Honestly, now that we know about quite a few very good looking PS3 games, I just can't comprehend what people like in this one. The new videos even show things like repetitively tiled ground textures - but lighting, shaders and effects are still totally underwhelming compared to practically every other A-category game already out there, not to mention the unreleased ones. I just can't understand this...

I can't really compare this game to a bog standard FPS Halo-style game or any other game for that matter. For gods sake, I will be flying a freaki'n dragon.

Seeing the smooth movements of the wings while flying over that glittering ocean tickles my imagination. From your previous posts I've learnt that you don't like the art direction of this game, but to me it looks decent, and if some ground textures are repeated in those 32x32 km maps, well, I think I can handle that.

I don't know what the game play will end up like, but from what's been said so far in interviews with Julian the story sounds interesting.

 

[deepbrown]

As we're talking about screenshots and how ugly Lair's are meant to be.

How is this ugly?

http://www.n4g.com/M/8/Images//40000/40779_med.jpg

http://www.n4g.com/M/8/Images//40000/40781_med.jpg

http://www.n4g.com/M/8/Images//34000/34958_med.jpg

http://www.n4g.com/M/8/Images//34000/34960_med.jpg

http://bp3.blogger.com/_qGtGl4NFC8s/Rd3Klkh-rsI/AAAAAAAADRw/Qb7CQhoqMDI/s1600/lair-05.jpg

http://www.ps3only.nl/screenshot.php?image=lair10_227413.jpg

http://www.ps3only.nl/screenshot.php?image=lair9_981405.jpg

http://i16.tinypic.com/4hx3eih.jpg

http://generationdreamteam.free.fr/afrika/lair/Laircompo.jpg

To me all those screenshots are pretty good looking. And watching their videos the water looks just as good. The shadows on the mountains (whether pre-baked or not) is very impressive. Day and Night cycles happen in real-time....you can see them in the videos as the sun comes up after the night...and it looks a beaut.

You may say I'm being selective, and then go on to show 10 ugly screenshots. But the claim was "they can't provide good looking screenshots"...well I just showed you some.

In addition there are moments when the gameplay looks like a CG movie (notice I say "moments" and "looks like" ie. approximates) ...here you can see two impressive moments in these gifs:

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a81/mckmas8808/Lair_Animation_3.gif

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a81/mckmas8808/Lair_Animation_2.gif

http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t242/belvedere351/lairwat.gif

http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u80/Stillmatiking/lairleap2-1.gif

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v500/EvilTaru/cellowned.gif

 

[Cheezdoodles]

As we're talking about screenshots and how ugly Lair's are meant to be.

How is this ugly?

http://www.n4g.com/M/8/Images//40000/40779_med.jpg

http://www.n4g.com/M/8/Images//40000/40781_med.jpg

http://www.n4g.com/M/8/Images//34000/34958_med.jpg

http://www.n4g.com/M/8/Images//34000/34960_med.jpg

Well, for one the mountains look like crap. The land mass except for cities is just big brown mass with some shading.

Nice water tho

 

[Neb]

Well, for one the mountains look like crap. The land mass except for cities is just big brown mass with some shading.

Nice water tho

That's exactly what I saw to, and low polygon meshes for the mountains (what makes them look bad, hard edges). Textures for the terrain at distance is a mixed bag and this game for shure doesn't have GI as somone suggested.

The first video released (mid-air dragon battle) from Sony's show this year demonstrated graphics that was a disappointment (for me atleast but I may have high standards). The explosion effect when the monster exploded onscreen was horrible (smoke and fire sprite effect badly done) and there was a noticable slowdown when the body parts fell down.

Although the fire stream from the dragons mouth seems to look better now but then it seems to be smaller in diameter to so... smaller always looks better! :smile:

Perhaps it is better to wait for the final game before talking more abut this game as the graphics gets upgraded in one demonstration just to be downgraded a couple of months later in another demonstration and up and down like a roller coaster!

 

[NERO]

Perhaps it is better to wait for the final game before talking more abut this game as the graphics gets upgraded in one demonstration just to be downgraded a couple of months later in another demonstration and up and down like a roller coaster!

Maybe the vids shown at gamer's day aren't final, but isn't this game already being pressed? I thought tge release date was June?

 

[deepbrown]

Maybe the vids shown at gamer's day aren't final, but isn't this game already being pressed? I thought tge release date was June?

Was July 31st (it's now august sometime...prob early august)

 

[betan]

I, for one, welcome the mountains (and especially the rocks) that don't look like newly cut (low poly) and painted white green on top. I don't see any edges at all. And those "some shaders" look pretty good too.

Personally don't like the low level dragon textures and consider those beasts significantly ugly. Hopefully this is intentional and we will ride more beautiful ones as the game advances.

That said, cannot see any point discussing the art direction of the game, you either like it or you don't. Not to say there is nothing between, just no point discussing art.

Techwise, the bad things I can see are 2d grass and some of the splash/explosion images.
Maybe not the grass but those images will likely be fixed. They certainly look like placeholders.
Oh and of course static ground troops. Soldiers looks very good individually though.
Dynamic mesh thing sometimes makes buildings look boxy from distance but I can live with that as long as scale is good. Flying animations indeed look unnatural time to time.

Overall the game is a tech showcase but I certainly hope there is more to it than that.

My only real concern now is the SIXAXIS control.

That is the only thing I'm pretty sure will be OK. I have read many negative comments regarding motion controls implementations in different games but yet to agree with any. In general lack of easily perceptible boundaries requires getting used to but overall they all turn out fine.

 

[archangelmorph]

IMO the only really ugly thing I can see with this game are the particles for the explosions and the logic thereof..

Why would a giant flesh-and-boned-manta explode into giblets after you hit it with a couple of fireballs..?

This just about the only area which concerns me regarding this game to be honest since F5's last gen star wars offerings had similar problems with the look of the larger-scale explosions looking cheap and poorly done..

I think with the increased fidelity of the game's engine it's quite worrying to see that even at such a late stage the developers at F5 still don't seem to recognise exactly how bad these flat, PS1-looking explosions actually look (not to mention their relevance either) in the context of the game and they are the only major factors I can see which completely ruin the visual believability of the world, much more than a few blurry ground textures or non-photorealistic water could IMO..

I *reeeeeeaaaally* hope F5 can FIX those nasty particles before release and actually take some time/care/consideration into making the enemy deaths (whether it be a creature, a ship or a dragon) more believable, otherwise they will serious run the risk of ending up with a title that clearly shows how an overall technical direction (as opposed to an artistic one) can ruin the overall look/belieavability of a game, in a development process which is constraint to a finite time schedule/budget..

 

[ultragpu]

it's easy to pick the flaws in such a giant scale of a game. with all due respect what do u guys expect? every single textures look so sharp that it bleeds ur eyes? every dragon boast 50k polys? u just cant get the best of the best for everything in a game like this and i know u all know this. but some of u just seems to cling on those insignificant flaws, trying to look down the game as if it's ps2 qaulity and not appreciate the sheer amount of eyecandies it offers. i love lair's art style, it's realistic approach in design and it's easily one of the most impressive console games thus far.

 

[ultragpu]

IMO the only really ugly thing I can see with this game are the particles for the explosions and the logic thereof..

Why would a giant flesh-and-boned-manta explode into giblets after you hit it with a couple of fireballs..?

This just about the only area which concerns me regarding this game to be honest since F5's last gen star wars offerings had similar problems with the look of the larger-scale explosions looking cheap and poorly done..

I think with the increased fidelity of the game's engine it's quite worrying to see that even at such a late stage the developers at F5 still don't seem to recognise exactly how bad these flat, PS1-looking explosions actually look (not to mention their relevance either) in the context of the game and they are the only major factors I can see which completely ruin the visual believability of the world, much more than a few blurry ground textures or non-photorealistic water could IMO..

I *reeeeeeaaaally* hope F5 can FIX those nasty particles before release and actually take some time/care/consideration into making the enemy deaths (whether it be a creature, a ship or a dragon) more believable, otherwise they will serious run the risk of ending up with a title that clearly shows how an overall technical direction (as opposed to an artistic one) can ruin the overall look/belieavability of a game, in a development process which is constraint to a finite time schedule/budget..

u must've missed out all those videos on gamer's day and dev walkthroughs. the explosion was vastly changed and improved upon. they're volumetric and gives off their own ambient light. and regarding to the exploding mantas, their bodies wre filled with gas so it's bit like a flying gas tank.

 

[Cheezdoodles]

it's easy to pick the flaws in such a giant scale of a game. with all due respect what do u guys expect?

Scale of the game doesn't really matter in this aspect, it makes flaws more acceptible but the mountains looking like big brown craps with bump mapping, with no detail, is unnacceptable imo.

Ruins the immersion of the game, specially in the screens with beautiful cities, followed with big, brown ,bumpmapped-to-hell mountains in the background. Doesn't blend in at all.

And really is this game so big? My impression is a few cities and vast landscapes filled of randomly generated mountains and water. Its not like they spend a lot of money designing these mountains.