ITAGAKI Clarifies X360 More Powerful Than PS3 in Interview Pt. 2
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mckmas8808
Legend
Acert93 said:
The point is there is nothing official. MS put their money where their mouth is by saying where (world wide) and when (holiday 2005). Sony has only given a when (Spring 2006) and no where. The lack of committment to where indicates it is still in debate, just like price.
But did MS really have anything official until recently? I think you're kidding yourself if you think that MS knew of their world wide release dates a year in advance. But I don't think you believe that, so it's no big deal here. And really why are other devs making games for the PS3 if they (supposly) have absolutely no idea when the console is releasing and where? Itagaki could have made a game for the PS3 if you wanted too just remember that. At the end of the day Acert your quote is what's really behind what he said.
Acert93 posing as Itagaki said:
mckmas8808 said:
First time I was trying to be subtle since I prefer to keep threads focused on topics and not people: Stop telling people what they do and do not think. This is the 2nd time in this thread you have done that it is not only annoying but rude.
Devs officially knew the 360 would ship in fall 2005 in the US for about a year. Officially, we knew a holiday 2005 world wide launch 6 months ago.
Lets talk about topics, not people. Thanks.
1. Did I say they did? Nope. 2. Yet you are persisting on the same line of thought about the PS3. Think about it. Itagaki is saying he is not even certain when it will launch, which is true on multiple levels. There is no exact date (that wont be nailed down until 2-3 months before hand) and I am pretty sure, as I mentioned above, that there is still discussion about what to do with Europe (see: PSP, PS2). A lot of that will depend on demand and production.
And back to the original point, from a developer stand point, that can be disconcerting. As far as we know Sony can be leaving a US Spring launch up for grabs dependant on the 360 launch. The fact some think it will be in the fall and some in spring does indicate a bit of confusion. Maybe not to insiders, but that is moot. Itagaki could not talk about that anyhow. He can only discuss public knowledge, which lines up well with his shifting of focus.
He could have, and still can. But it is much easier to create a game when you have a time table. It is bad to be 6 months early and even worse to be 6 months behind schedule. Obviously Tier 1 devs know a lot ASAP, but by all accounts Sony is being rushed into next gen to a degree. They have publically stated they feel it is too early. So it is not unthinkable that some of their decisions will be based on how the market goes, production of the parts, and importantly: How far games are coming along.
MS delayed the Xbox360 it seems a little bit to give devs as MUCH time as possible. If things are NOT shaping up come Spring I can see Sony delaying until fall.
Acert93 said:You know, I don't remember this type of questioning when SN Systems made similar comments in favor of the PS3 in Edge Magazine (only to find out a month later they had been aquired by Sony).
Of course political affiliations are relevant to the topic, but then call it what it is: You reject what he says because you believe he is in MS's pocket.
On the other hand I have not affirmed or disagreed with his comments--I think he knows a lot more about his games than I do and I will leave it up to him to decide what is best and more powerful for him and Team Ninja. Further, the 1UP.com question is completely moot; surprisingly Itagaki gives a thoughtful response. If he was in MS's pocket he would have said, "Of course it is!" Just note the CoD2 developers excitement over Xenos (which may be real or not).
Xbox f@nboys are going to dance a gig and feel good about this quote.
Sony f@nboys are going to find every reason they can to dismantle and discredit his claim.
And the rest of us are sitting here
Down the road 2 or 3 years from now we will get a much clearer picture of the issue. It will be decided by what devs create, not what they say. Until then feel free to bash him or praise him. Personally I have never played his games but I respect the fact he makes good games (based on reviews) and that he gives thoughtful replies. Doesn't mean they are right, but when Carmak, Newell, Itagaki, Miyamoto, Suzuki, etc... speak I think it is relevant within the context of their business model. They don't speak for the entire industry, but what they say carries weight and also should be viewed as their companies position.
Why don´t you stop being so wishy-washy about all of this? It´s not a crime to say a console is more powerfull than the other. At this point the general feeling is that PS3 is more powerfull. When Itagaki was asked which hardware is more powerfull, he brought in software and spinned his response until X360 was the best for him. That, to me, is clearly a sign that he is in MS´s pocket.
Be careful about this, I´m NOT dismissing his comments, like I mentioned, X360 seems to be to some degree easier to develop for. However, stretching that comment to saying the hardware is more powerfull is just not acceptable, it´s not a firm foundation to base that opinion, since software can be improved, while hardware cannot. This isn´t that relative Acert, he was asked which hardware was more powerfull, and he conceeded PS3 was. The rest is product of his strong affiliation to MS, it´s not very wise to leave your fanbase (especially when on the other side your fighting games are laughed at), so that´s expected.
mckmas8808
Legend
Acert you are taking what I'm saying the wrong way. I apolgize for making the "I know what you are thinking" comments. But if Itagaki wanted to port DOA4 to the PS3 or make an orginal product for it he could have done that too. You've stated that yourself in your last post. But how is MS SO different than everybody else. Hell if that's the case Nintendo should have darn near 0 3rd party support. Developers didn't even know what the controller was going to look like until a couple weeks ago.
My point is actually what you said. Itagaki really wanted to talk about his product coming out this year and not some fairytale game that's not even coming out for the opposing console that's coming out next year. Him not making a game for the PS3 has nothing to do with not knowing the exact date down to the hour of release. He just doesn't think that people should get worked up and hyped for a system that they don't even know the release date for.
My point is actually what you said. Itagaki really wanted to talk about his product coming out this year and not some fairytale game that's not even coming out for the opposing console that's coming out next year. Him not making a game for the PS3 has nothing to do with not knowing the exact date down to the hour of release. He just doesn't think that people should get worked up and hyped for a system that they don't even know the release date for.
Itagaki hasn't exactly said anything about not developing for the PS3, and if I was TN I'd probably make my first next-gen game on X360 as well since it's coming out so much sooner. Personally I'm waiting to hear what devs have to say when they have final dev kits for both systems along with more mature software tools. If MS didn't have better tools at this point than Sony, then I'd be really worried about the X360. Really, at the end of the day this quote is pointless because I'm sure that the X360 is better to develop for at the moment due to being closer to release and having final hardware, and in that context I'm sure that their dev kits are probably more powerful to go along with the better software. Will this be the case when both systems are released? Don't ask me.
Master-Mold
Newcomer
PS3's so-called power advantage is right now theoretical based on specs. People are making assumptions that are too early. You cannot even take developers 100% seriously because of their allegiances or development plans. You really think Itagaki will say the PS3 is more powerful or Kojiam saying the 360 is superior? Of course not.
I have seen nothing that shows me this superiority of the PS3 thus far. Just smoke and mirrors. I think the hardware is going to be so close it is going to be dependent more than ever on the people making the product. However I could also be wrong.
I have seen nothing that shows me this superiority of the PS3 thus far. Just smoke and mirrors. I think the hardware is going to be so close it is going to be dependent more than ever on the people making the product. However I could also be wrong.
ShootMyMonkey said:
I know a lot of developers can crank out good games for the PS2 but out of curiosity, is the PS2 'fully utilized' at this point. For instance are developers using both of the VU units? IIRC, that was one of the challenges of the PS2. (if thats what the definition of fully utilized for a PS2)
J
ihamoitc2005
Veteran
Almasy said:
He was very clear no? He openly said his job is to make xbox360 games.
Not everyone's perception of a PS3 pwer advantage is based on theoretical specs. In my case I've looked at the architectures (of the CPU's really) and I look at Cell and how it does things and think to myself 'yeah, that's a good way round the bottlenecks. I can see there's certainly potential in this design and I'd expect it to be able to manage more then conventional CPU's in a good few areas. Might be a bind for some people to write for but i trust devs will get their heads around it eventually.'Master-Mold said:
There's a difference between a blind following of hype or marketting numbers and an educated speculation based on research.
ihamoitc2005 said:
Well, that´s what some people are questioning. He is very close to MS, and his fanbase is on MS consoles, so he found a way to spin facts until X360 was more powerfull for him. I don´t know, it´s just so annoying to hear some wishy washy fellow make essays on this interview and how a not as powerfull console can be turned into the most powerfull based on magic.
The list of things that were behind Itagaki's comment is long. That is one possibility. Another is that, for him, it IS more powerful.Almasy said:
scooby_dooby
Legend
Inane_Dork said:
No, don't you listen? THat's simply NOT possible. He MUST be lying.
ihamoitc2005
Veteran
Too complicated.
He said PS3 too complicated for him.
Inane_Dork said:
He said PS3 too complicated for him.
aaronspink
Veteran
Titanio said:
Well if you want to know just about the hardware and nothing else. Then they are both useless. I mean, that CELL chip and that Xenon chip really don't do any good without power. And its pretty hard to do much of anything without a controller. And for some reason neither run C. I can't fathom why someone wouldn't design hardware that directly ran C.
The only way you can answer a question about performance is to put it into a contex and for anything to do with computers that contex must include a development enviroment. There have been machines designed that had incredible potential, but very poor delivered performance because the development enviroment was borked.
Aaron Spink
speaking for myself inc.
ihamoitc2005
Veteran
expletive said:
No. No hardware ever fully utilized and only few developers come close. Especially true in PC world since all games developed for different hardware at once. In PS2 games this is due to fully programmable vector units enabling new graphics methods untried as yet however development budgets have limits and so not all can be done in given time period.
Okay...? I took that as meaning it was more complicated than it should be, and made practical performance less than he could get from the X360. I'm not saying Itagaki is not influenced by fanbase, sales, MS bribes, etc. I'm just saying that he might be right. I doubt any of us here could refute that without serious investigation.ihamoitc2005 said:
I have not been wishy-washy at all. I have a very pragmatic approach to game development. I think it is blatantly obvious that Sony and MS had a different view processing balance this generation and each design tailors to that philosophy. Further, the general designs themselves are completely different: One tends toward elegant design, the other toward brute force. Their vision of multi-core designs is completely different and they have balanced their CPUs for different design problems. They clearly have different expectations of where performance bottlenecks are and what the vision of future software will be. Just look where the memory controller is on each platform and that should give you a good idea of what the console revolves around.Almasy said:
I think each architecture has advantages and disadvantages. They will benefit some games more than others--on the balance which it will benefit more I do not know.
And neither do you.
Obviously I am not going to recover all the ground on "power". If the points and analogies were lost on you I am not sure I can explain the complications of saying one things is better than another without a context. To use the GPUs as an example, Xenos will allow HDR+MSAA and can do a very fast Z pass and dedicate all of the shader logic to vertex shader ops which will accellerate certain shadowing techniques. Does this make the Xbox 360 more powerful? Of course not. Because while this may be a relative bottleneck on RSX comparitvely, there will be bottlenecks on the 360 side to balance them out. There may be cases where PS3 has more collision detection while the Xbox 360 may have more indepth AI. There are so many variables it is not even funny. The basic one being: What do you want to do with your game and what are the strengths of the respective platforms? If you think PS3 or Xbox 360 is more powerful (obviously in your case it is the PS3) in every situation you are ripe for a very rude awakening.
But if this makes you happy:
P4 > Athlon64 > Xenon = CELL
I am sure I can find a lot of scenarios where this is true from an application standpoint. Without a context--or knowing a developers design goals--it is nearly impossible to say one, unequivicably is more powerful. Heck, ERP has stated that the Xbox is more powerful than the PS2 in basically every way... with an exception! And guess what? There are games where that exception was relevant! So in those games PS2 > Xbox.
It is pretty much agreed that these consoles are much closer this gen in real world performance than last gen (and we all saw how that turned out). And it is not all clear cut as my previous Sig notes. To quote DeanoC:
So if no greater than an authority than DeanoC can note in certain situations that Xenon is more powerful, why is it that YOU are having such a problem understanding this?
Which some of you have been chomping at the bit to say.
Ironically, I have seen Xbox fans in this thread be very constructive and not go the route, "SEE! Another dev saying Xbox 360 is more powerful!" The only people I see getting all bent out of shape about this is a certain number of PS3 fans.
Its like you are looking for a fight--and yet no one is going to give it to you. I am kind of proud of some of the Xbox fans. I think they have come to grips with the concept that contrasting designs may in fact have strengths in different areas and that in the end it is not really relevant.
Which is ironic considering some of the abuse many have taken about buying an Xbox because it was more powerful.
And obviously you have not followed the train of logic about "power" as admitted above and come with the priori assumption your console of choice is the most powerful--no questions asked.
You wish to crucify only one aspect of his statement. He had more than one reason and you are assuming it was a cop out. As far as we know maybe he likes the tools so much that, like other devs, he felt compelled to include that in his comments because it is such an important aspect of his perception (irregardless of the hardware).
I like how you twist things. He said no such thing. He actually did not comment on the hardware, instead rephrased the question in the context of game development--and his answer was the Xbox 360 was more powerful.You still cannot grasp the concept of "power" and how it is not the same for every game (or dev house within their limitations and design philosophies) and now you are inserting words into his mouth.
Unbelievable!
ihamoitc2005
Veteran
complicated
I think he's very clear his job is making xbox360 games. Therefore it is not his job to do PS3 games no?
Also, looking at difficulty, with simple games like DOA probably 1-2 threads enough so Xenon CPU very easy compared with CELL, twice as much cache. But if more than one core needed Xenon is very difficult but DOA not so technically demanding so one core probably more than enough. It is no wonder he gets 60fps while other developers get 30fps. He only has to worry about GPU performance but other developers must worry about multi-core performance and GPU performance together.
Also, Itagaki not so good with PS2 vector units so unlikely he is very good with SPE. I think it clear for his type of game, CELL is too complicated and not needed.
Inane_Dork said:
I think he's very clear his job is making xbox360 games. Therefore it is not his job to do PS3 games no?
Also, looking at difficulty, with simple games like DOA probably 1-2 threads enough so Xenon CPU very easy compared with CELL, twice as much cache. But if more than one core needed Xenon is very difficult but DOA not so technically demanding so one core probably more than enough. It is no wonder he gets 60fps while other developers get 30fps. He only has to worry about GPU performance but other developers must worry about multi-core performance and GPU performance together.
Also, Itagaki not so good with PS2 vector units so unlikely he is very good with SPE. I think it clear for his type of game, CELL is too complicated and not needed.
ihamoitc2005 said:
Given this reality, isnt the development environment, and its ability to leverage the hardware, almost equal in importance to the theoretical performance of the hardware?
Of course i'm not saying a 100% utilized NES can trump a 50% utilized PS3, but consoles in the same generation?
I firmly believe that you would have gotten no other answer from Itagaki other then one that puts the 360 in a positive light, no doubt. He's aligned with MS and thats the reality.
But honestly i wouldnt be surprised if a more impartial developer said the same thing.
Why?
Because the 360 was designed that way, its the whole MS strategy. From unified shaders, EDRAM, UMA, 3 identical cores on the Xenon, all the way down to superior development environment built from familiar yet powerful tools, the whole platform is about EFFICIENCY and maxmimum UTILIZATION - getting the most from the hardware AND the developers.
(I'm sure at some point MS figured they could gain 10% on the hardware compared to the competitors based on this idea but we'll never hear it because its not savvy marketing.)
Am i saying the 360 will be net/net more powerful? no. Theres no way to know that at this point. But to rule out that the entire chain, dev tools to shaders, couldnt produce a 'better' product is close-minded. Microsoft has bet billions on this strategy and whether it succeeds or not reamins to be seen, but it clearly is well thought out and worth some consideration.
J
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