ITAGAKI Clarifies X360 More Powerful Than PS3 in Interview Pt. 2

[Inane_Dork]

I really don't understand why it's so hard to believe that two machines can be close enough in capability that APIs and particular game demand are enough to tilt favor towards one or the other. We've been hearing that there will not be a big difference between the X360 and PS3, graphically speaking. Well, this is the logical conclusion of that.

It's not that obtuse.

 

[Titanio]

We've been hearing that there will not be a big difference between the X360 and PS3, graphically speaking. Well, this is the logical conclusion of that.

It's not that obtuse.

We've been hearing a lot of different things depending on who you listen to, and what timeline they're looking at.

Graphics is one thing. Overall capability is another. Cue a debate we've already had a million times here

 

[czekon]

I really don't understand why it's so hard to believe that two machines can be close enough in capability that APIs and particular game demand are enough to tilt favor towards one or the other.

my point hard + soft .If PS3 really is much more powerfull then X360 then no software can change this, but if they both are quite similiar then good soft can decide on what dev can do with hardware.

 

[3roxor]

Xbox360 (at the moment) has much better dev kits. Main reason is that the Cell SPE'S aren't fully supported yet.

 

[Black Dragon37]

Xbox360 (at the moment) has much better dev kits. Main reason is that the Cell SPE'S aren't fully supported yet.

I heard there were branch prediction software for the SPEs...

 

[AbbA]

1UP: If the PS3 is amazingly powerful, would you consider developing for it?

Itagaki: When is it supposed to come out?

1UP: 2006? [Laughs]

Itagaki: Don't you think it's pointless to get all worked up about a piece of hardware when you don't even know when it's supposed to come out?

For now this is a non sense comparison.. i think he would have to wait for final Ps3 devkit..

 

[BlueTsunami]

1UP: If the PS3 is amazingly powerful, would you consider developing for it?

Itagaki: When is it supposed to come out?

1UP: 2006? [Laughs]

Itagaki: Don't you think it's pointless to get all worked up about a piece of hardware when you don't even know when it's supposed to come out?

For now this is a non sense comparison.. i think he would have to wait for final Ps3 devkit..

So has Itagaki had a chance to get his hands on a PS3 development kit? I thought him making bold statments like that, that he had already fiddled around with one.

 

[Master-Mold]

Is the RSX even finalized yet?

When it comes down to it most people put visuals vs. visuals as the more powerful benchmark. I don't think processing power will be an issue on either system. Really I think its going to be the RSX vs. Xenos that will ultimately decide who has the more powerful system.

The only processing issue I see is what devs are going to put in more time to use the SPEs and which won't. In that regard the 360 may have a processing edge 75% of the time if devs can get more power using less time and resources. However if someone really spends the time the Cell may be a beast that out paces the XCPU, but I bet this will be rare.

 

[scooby_dooby]

Ya I agree that the GPU's are more important for the overall perception of power, lowest common denominator next gen will be 1 PPE + GPU, whichever games cross-platform titles look better, will probably get the nod for bext GFX. AAA titles will be too close to call.

 

[mckmas8808]

1UP: If the PS3 is amazingly powerful, would you consider developing for it?

Itagaki: When is it supposed to come out?

1UP: 2006? [Laughs]

Itagaki: Don't you think it's pointless to get all worked up about a piece of hardware when you don't even know when it's supposed to come out?

How does he not know when the PS3 will come out? Hell we just found out what day the X360 is coming out. And what does an exact release date have to with developing for a system?

 

[Master-Mold]

How does he not know when the PS3 will come out? Hell we just found out what day the X360 is coming out. And what does an exact release date have to with developing for a system?

I don't even think Sony knows exactly when its coming out. There are alot of yet to be decided factors that will play into this.

I bet they have a 4-6 month loose window starting in about June 06' to December 06'.

Exact release date means alot to a dev. Do you want a title for launch? How much time will you have? Will you have to re-allocate resources etc. What if a college professer told you a thesis was due at some point but you didnt know when.

 

[ShootMyMonkey]

Is the RSX even finalized yet?

Last I heard, yes. What they refer to as "tape-out" actually means that the microarchitecture and IP is final and set in stone. Any changes in that end would require back-tracking and tacking on at least another 6 months. Things like clock speed and core voltage and other similar things that aren't internally controlled can change, but that's a function of manufacturing.

The only processing issue I see is what devs are going to put in more time to use the SPEs and which won't. In that regard the 360 may have a processing edge 75% of the time if devs can get more power using less time and resources. However if someone really spends the time the Cell may be a beast that out paces the XCPU, but I bet this will be rare.

Mmmm... I think after quite some time passes, it may not be that rare anymore. It's largely the same story with the PS2, which was fairly ill-utilized by almost every developer early on, but just about everybody can make something technically superior in all aspects to those early titles nowadays. Largely because established practices and design philosophies have spread around as programmers and artists jump around from company to company, and have all become status quo.

The fact that both RSX and Xenos aren't really poly-pushing fillrate beasts and more shader processing beasts means that there will probably be several paths you could go down where the CPU could outstrip the limits of the GPU. For instance, processing AI for more NPCs than you can render -- and then you either cut back on the art assets so you can render more or you advance the AI to fill in spare CPU time. Which do you think would make the gamers happier?

 

[Acert93]

How does he not know when the PS3 will come out? Hell we just found out what day the X360 is coming out. And what does an exact release date have to with developing for a system?

We have known MS was aiming for a world wide release this holiday season for 6 months, and before that developers knew MS was aiming for a fall release since for almost a year. One of the worse kept secrets in the industry.

Currently all we know from Sony is that it will ship in Spring of 2006 in at least one region. This is not verified to be world wide. Some are worried it wont hit Europe until 2007. There is a lot of speculation that the US wont see it until Fall 2006.

Note the difference: Everyone and their mom knew the Xbox 360 was coming Fall 2005 for 12 months. There is, and has been, much more uncertainty about the PS3 launch. So back to your question:

And what does an exact release date have to with developing for a system?

If you are developing for a platform it is nice to know your target release date. If your game is a US exclusive it would be damaging to aim for a Spring launch if the US was not going to see the PS3 until Fall--6 months later.

I am CERTAIN certain devs have been given estimations of when the console will launch in the different territories, but right now Sony is pretty tight lipped. I am sure Itagaki is NOT on the inside circle of those devs as TN is pretty much Xbox 360 exclusive right now (although Tecmo is not).

Anyhow, he is making a next gen game right now and it will be done Fall 2005. In a nutshell he is saying: Why are you worked up about something that wont be here until next year when THIS is here now, this fall.

He is redirecting the question back to his product. He is probably a LITTLE annoyed. He has this interview to talk about HIS GAME on the Xbox 360 and the interviewer keeps going back to the same question. All he is saying is, "Hey look, the game we are interviewing about is here this fall. You don't even know when the other machine will launch. We have a launch date for my game--so lets focus on the issue at hand".

From a journalistic stand point the reporter pressing is really rude. Itagaki takes it pretty well and refocuses the discussion: Lets talk about our product that is shipping this year. We don't even have a launch date on the other system, so lets gets excited about what we do know and what we don't.

It makes sense in that granting interviews to the press is really only done for one reason: To bring attention to your product. I think his response is a nice way of saying, "Lets talk about my product that is shipping this November".

 

[mckmas8808]

I don't even think Sony knows exactly when its coming out. There are alot of yet to be decided factors that will play into this.

I bet they have a 4-6 month loose window starting in about June 06' to December 06'.

Exact release date means alot to a dev. Do you want a title for launch? How much time will you have? Will you have to re-allocate resources etc. What if a college professer told you a thesis was due at some point but you didnt know when.

Are you kidding? To be honest I really can't tell, because Sony has said repeatly that the PS3 will come out in Spring 2006. Now in what terriories is what most people are questioning. Fact is we will see the PS3 come next spring.

 

[Master-Mold]

Are you kidding? To be honest I really can't tell, because Sony has said repeatly that the PS3 will come out in Spring 2006. Now in what terriories is what most people are questioning. Fact is we will see the PS3 come next spring.

No Im not kidding.

You are assuming things without waiting to see how the cards play out between now and then. Phil Harrison himself in an interview said the timeframe isnt 100% nailed down but they are aiming for Spring.

It could be sooner (doubtful) or it could be a later Holiday release or it could even slip to 2007 but its unlikely.

 

[mckmas8808]

Acert I agree with you assertion that Itagaki flipped the question around this talk about his product coming out this year. But I know you don't fully believe that the devs don't have any idea when the PS3 will be coming out. Didn't Sony announce that the PS3 was targeting for a Spring release of 2006 in spring of 2005? Thats one full year ahead of time for consumers. I seriously doubt that devs found out the exact same day and time that we the gamers found out.

Isn't there something called NDAs? Of course the game devs can't tell us when they will be releasing their games until the console developers give up the release date. I know for sure if Itagaki wanted to make a launch title for the PS3 he could have. Not knowing a release date is just not a good enough excuse to me.

 

[Acert93]

The fact that both RSX and Xenos aren't really poly-pushing fillrate beasts and more shader processing beasts means that there will probably be several paths you could go down where the CPU could outstrip the limits of the GPU. For instance, processing AI for more NPCs than you can render -- and then you either cut back on the art assets so you can render more or you advance the AI to fill in spare CPU time. Which do you think would make the gamers happier?

Ewww good question!

Really depends. I can see games with 1,000 semi-intelligent troops being a lot of fun, but also a dozen really sophisticated ones as well.

In general I think AI has a looooong way to go, so far that even "smart AI" is dumb (it can be hard and dumb at the same time IMO). Also, gamers tend to like the "super hero" type mentality--a group of 10 troops approach and you kick their butts! I think a mob can be made to be more "believable" in that you can have a high level of detail but the small things--the hard things--are not focused on because of the group is distracting. With a single one-on-one EVERY detail stands out if it is not right. If you are focusing on one character little thinigs like blinking, breathing, hair, etc all stick out. Facial expressions, small manurisms, etc... The focus is different. And when it becomes human-on-human how do you do all those little facial expressions? The input devices just don't allow us to express outselves, and even AI has limitations. So far the best facial expressions, in HL2, are all precanned. Ditto speech.

So I guess a large smart mob is more appealing to me. But I KNOW a lot of gamers who will disagree

 

[mckmas8808]

No Im not kidding.

You are assuming things without waiting to see how the cards play out between now and then. Phil Harrison himself in an interview said the timeframe isnt 100% nailed down but they are aiming for Spring.

It could be sooner (doubtful) or it could be a later Holiday release or it could even slip to 2007 but its unlikely.

100% nailed down means not being able to say March 27 or May 13 you know exact to the day dates. Saying they are not 100% doesn't mean they may launch in March 2006 or maybe September 2006 or maybe Feburary 2007. He is talking about a specfic day and month.

 

[Master-Mold]

100% nailed down means not being able to say March 27 or May 13 you know exact to the day dates. Saying they are not 100% doesn't mean they may launch in March 2006 or maybe September 2006 or maybe Feburary 2007. He is talking about a specfic day and month.

I am just saying that if you are planning on picking up a new PS3 in the Spring of 06' you might be disappointed.

They will launch when the time is right for them. As I said before there are too mnay variables right now to bank 100% on Spring 06'. Just be ready for it if it doesn't make it.

I bet Spring 06' is about 50/50 right now. The picture should be a little clearer around Jan 06'.

 

[Acert93]

But I know you don't fully believe that the devs don't have any idea when the PS3 will be coming out.

Didn't Sony announce that the PS3 was targeting for a Spring release of 2006 in spring of 2005? Thats one full year ahead of time for consumers. I seriously doubt that devs found out the exact same day and time that we the gamers found out.

The point made is that there is more uncertainty. There is still some question about where and when the PS3 will launch. 6 months difference is a long time. And no, I do not believe every dev has an inside scoop.

Heck, its not like every Dev gets a devkit, let alone inside information. Companies leave a lot of this close to their chest with key partners having the scoop first. So while of course they know before consumers, I would wonder about the release dates. e.g. I am not sure if Sony knows the EXACT release date/month (it appears MS pushed their release date back, internally, even recently). Further, I would not be surprised if there is no decision on Europe yet. I have a feeling availability of key parts and demand in Japan/US will decide that.

The point is there is nothing official. MS put their money where their mouth is by saying where (world wide) and when (holiday 2005). Sony has only given a when (Spring 2006) and no where. The lack of committment to where indicates it is still in debate, just like price.

I am sure tier 1 devs have a good idea, but for someone like Itagaki it is kind of moot. "Stop asking me about a machine when I don't even know when it will be out! I have a product shipping in 60 days on a great platform, lets talk about that!"