Israel says killing Arafat an option

Terrorism has been repeatedly and widely condemned in the UN. Heck each time theres a major suicide bombing some mention is made at the UN of that... But its easy to condemn and not easy to deal with...

Why wouldnt the US itself not bring up condemnation of terrorist acts in the UN and not have that widely reported?

Not every act is mentionned of course only major ones. Anymore that the UN doesnt mention every palestinian house that the israelis blow up or refugee camp raid...
 
RussSchultz said:
Condemnation of Israel, but no condemnation of Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Hizbullah, Al Aqsa, etc.

There's obviously some sort of bias going on.

But that couldn't happen in the UN. Nope.

Wasn't that resolution proposal specifically about exiling Arafat?

Adressing a specific issue without mentioning a whole slew of other issues in the same breath isn't bias. What has Arafat to do with Hamas?

Maybe they should paste a standard disclaimer condemning Hamas etc. to every criticsm of Israeli occupation policy...

Besides, it's not like there was an lack of condemnation of Palestinian terrorism in the international community - happens every time a bomb goes off, actually.
 
What DOES Arafat have to do with HAMAS?

Nothing much, except have his Al Aqsa martyrs brigade regularly engage in joint "martydom" operations, along with Islamic Jihad.

He used to regularly call for martyrdom resistance operations in his Arabic speeches, though he's toned that down now that "we're on to him".
 
RussSchultz said:
Terrorism has.

Hamas, Al Aqsa, Hizbullah, Islamic Jihad hasn't.

They're "freedom fighters".

So the US, Canada, Britain and various other nations who support Israel have never brought forth condemnation of terror acts by those orgs? While at the same time declaring them illegal especially after 9\11?
 
RussSchultz said:
Nothing much, except have his Al Aqsa martyrs brigade regularly engage in joint "martydom" operations, along with Islamic Jihad.

The extend of Arafat's influence over Al Aqsa is questionable. The only connection seems to be that the Al Aqsa Martyr Brigade sees itself aligned with Arafat's secular Fatah movement (while most other terrorist groups are religious militants).

It is possible if not likely that the AAMB recieved aid from Fatah or recruit themselves from their ranks but then again, Arafat's grip on his very own organisation is probably extremely weak if it still exists at all and it is highly unlikely that Arafat can actually order Al Aqsa bombers into action. Arafat has been isolated for a long time now, his actual power base is close to zero and his main signifcance is that of a figurehead of resistance.

The truth is that Palestinian terrorism has a life of it's own. It doesn't need some leader in the back pulling strings. All they need are a bunch of people who can built TNT belts. People are flocking to them, the terror groups don't even need active recruitment. And every Israeli retaliatory action, every bulldozed home, ever targeted killing with "collateral damage" and every day of occupation will only increase this trend, no matter what happens to Arafat.

Do you honestly believe that removing Arafat from the game will have a positive impact on Palestinian terrorism?

He used to regularly call for martyrdom resistance operations in his Arabic speeches, though he's toned that down now that "we're on to him".

Some quotes/sources would be welcome.
 
L233, briefly..

If the Palestinian authority were serious about making a peace plan work, they would be routinely working with Israel and sending militants to jail.

Everyone agrees that Israeli settlements must stop, only a minority of crazy right wing Zionists argue for 'Greater Israel'. However, no peace plan will ever work when you have a Palestinian government that are illegitmate with respect to their own people, ie completely powerless (as you claim). Or the opposite, that are in cohoots with the terrorists.

Either way, the burden is on Palestine to get their act together. So long as popular sentiment is supportive of murderers, they don't deserve any concessions whatsoever.

I won't even bother giving you a cold war history lesson on the 6 day war as to why Israel occupied the West Bank, suffice it to say they were not at fault for taking preemptive military action, any country in the world would have done the same.
 
Fred, I think it's pointless to adress those points again, since we're running in circles. So i'll just stick to the Six Day War...

I won't even bother giving you a cold war history lesson on the 6 day war as to why Israel occupied the West Bank, suffice it to say they were not at fault for taking preemptive military action, any country in the world would have done the same.

The thing is that there is absolutely no evidence that the Arab nations were about to invade. Saber rattling is no evidence, neither is the (at that time) usual Arab strong talk or the ongoing low intensity warfare in the border regions. If the Arabs were about to attack, they wouldn't have been so open with their threats and military parading and all.

The only fact that can be perceived is that Israel attacked in a carefully planned and perfectly executed surprise attack and crushed the armies of several nations in six days. Personally, I find it rather hard to belive this was possible if the Arab nations were really on full alert and on the verge of attack within days (as Israel claims). Israel lost less than 800 men - against an Arab force of supposedly 250.000 ready to attack! Yeah, sure.
Syria with their supposed invasion army of 100.000 (including 1000 tanks) managed to shell a whooping 205 houses. That was indeed one mighty invasion army...

More interestingly, Syria did NOT invade when Israel attacked Eqypt. They simply fired artillery with limited success. If they really had 100.000 tropps ready to invade, they would have done so.

There is an interesting interview with an Israeli historian adressing some of those point:
http://www.uncommonknowledge.org/800/806.html

It also adresses the Jordanian actions and the Israeli attack on Syria.

It's just not as simple as official Israeli propaganda would us to believe, in fact, it looks rather unlikely that the Arabs would have fired the first shot.

Even if you give Israel the benefit of doubt and accept that they felt genuinely threatened by an imminent Arab attack... that still leaves open the issue of what happened AFTER the Six Days War.

The military occupation of Golan, West Bank and Gaza was the result of the Six Day War. This placed Israel in the unique position of having a significant bargaining chip. The UNSC resolution (which the USA agreed to) concerning the occupation acknowledged this and called for something which could be seen as the first viable Middle East peace plan:

The Arabs were to accept and acknowledge Israel as a state in exchange for a Palestinian state in the occupied territories. The Arabs were inclined to accept, in fact, Jordan accepted without reservation.

The problem is that Israel never used that bargaining chip. Instead, they moved in. Colonized. That's why some people say that Israel lost the Six Days War on the seventh day. They took absolutely no political advantage of the situation. They sacrificed their bargaining chip in favour of a Greater Israel Zionist ideology instead of using it to to foster a lasting peace with the Arabs who were, after facing crushing defeat, probably for the first time ready to listen.

The acknowledgement of Israel as a state and it's right of existence in the pre-1967 bordern and a Palestinian state would have been a viable compromise. Actually, that is the only viable compromise even today.

Israel failed to act on that chance. And when the peace process was finally initiated in the early 90s, one of the major obstacles was that Israel was expecting the Palestinians to compomise on the comprimise!

Just look at the maps of the two "generous offers". They're ridiculous. Add in the painstaking bargaining about every god damn meter of Palestinian land which was the result of the moronic settlement policy.

And maybe the biggest misconception is that Israel was and is ready to give up the settlements. They are not. They were expecting the Palestinians to compromise on the compromise in which the Palestinians already conceded 60% of what once was Palestine. Even on the height of the peace process there was not one Israeli administatrions that actually agreed to dismantling the settlements, even in the long term. On contrary, they increased the rate of expansion. The Israelis were never ready to give up colonized land and frankly, unless the Israelis begin to stick to the original compromise, no peace process will ever have a chance of success.

Compromise means that both sides give something up. Israel tried to retain what they wanted and just give up what they aren't interested in anyway. Israel thought they could have peace without any painful concessions (i.e. the complete retreat from the occupied territories, including the settlements). What Israel was shooting at was really just a continuation of the occupation with different means. Keep the settlements and control over all important areas in the occupied territorries (inlcuding control over water) and let the Palestinians deal with security in return for some scraps of land and a virtually powerless self-government.

Even at the time during the peace process when terrorism wasn't much of a problem, Israel failed to meet minimum requirements with their proposals. So the notion that it's only terrorism that stands in the way of perpetual peace and bliss in Israel and Palestine is rather misguided.
 
Sorry, L233, I'm going to have to disagree with your assessment.

Israel dismantled settlements in the Sinai when it was given back to Egypt as part of the land for peace deal with Sadat. Given that, I would propose that if other countries came forth and offered peace for their land back, that would have been accepted also.

Of course, Gaza and the Westbank aren't claimed by any nation. It seems that its more useful to Arab nationalism in that form, than a separate Palestinian state.
 
RussSchultz said:
Sorry, L233, I'm going to have to disagree with your assessment.

Israel dismantled settlements in the Sinai when it was given back to Egypt as part of the land for peace deal with Sadat. Given that, I would propose that if other countries came forth and offered peace for their land back, that would have been accepted also.

That analogy doen't really work, for several reasons. First, Sinai settlements never had the extend of West Bank and Gaza settlements. Second, the area was strategically exposed and a a peace settlement with Egypt put Israel into the position of consolidating their settlement activity in West Band and Gaza. Third, Israel was dealing with a powerful state - that's quite a difference from dealing with a stateless people without an army. And finally, there were just 12 years between the Six Days War and the Israel-Egypt peace treaty while there have now been ~ 35 years of settlement activity in the West Bank and Gaza.

Considering that, you simply cannot conclude that Israel is willing to give up West Bank and Gaza settlements from the fact that they gave up Sinai settlements 25 years ago, especially considering that they have been expanding settlement activity during the peace process of the 90s.

Of course, Gaza and the Westbank aren't claimed by any nation. It seems that its more useful to Arab nationalism in that form, than a separate Palestinian state.

So you think an Arab nation should "claim" the West Bank and the fact that no Arab nation does is proof that the Arabs are interested in the problem to persist?
 
My dear friends, lets remenber some recent history:

1 - In june 29 the militants groups unilaterally called for a ceasefire but the Israeli troops carried out several deadly arrest raids and assassinations during the unilateral truce, prompting revenge attacks by militants. Looks like an Israel fault.

2 - Now Arafat is talking about truce with a bilateral ceasefire and Israel is talking about more assassinations and killing Arafat.

IMHO Israellis dont want peace and many want the "Great Israel" :rolleyes:
 
You simply cannot conclude that Israel is willing

You originally said "never used occupied lands as a political tool".

I showed you they did, and therefore were willing.

Can they now? My Israeli friends say "yes, nobody but hardcore zionists want the settlements."

I'm certain that if Israel was guaranteed:
-security from terrorist activities originating outside its borders
-non-aggression from attacks from its neighbors
-normalized relations

They'd stop meddling in the Palestinian territories, dismantle the settlements and be glad they don't have to deal with it any more.
 
pascal said:
My dear friends, lets remenber some recent history:

1 - In june 29 the militants groups unilaterally called for a ceasefire but the Israeli troops carried out several deadly arrest raids and assassinations during the unilateral truce, prompting revenge attacks by militants. Looks like an Israel fault.
Yes, let us remember recent history:

http://216.239.39.104/search?q=cach...1o0.html+cease+fire+29&hl=en&ie=UTF-8

Nothing but roses and songs from the Palestinians. And assasin bullets from the Israelis.
 
Right. Arresting murderers is obviously an act of agression worthy of revenge killings on innocent civilians.
 
Many inocent Palestinians died too. IIRC 3~4 times more Palestinians than Israellis. And there are 6.000 Palestinians in Jail. And many hundreds of thousands in the midlle of hell. Hard to believe all these people are cold blood murderers.

Anyway someone tried to make truce and then was hunted and killed. Dont you expect some reaction?

Do you really believe it is possible to make peace hunting members from militant groups? :?:
 
So you propose offering free passes to murderers?

Lets consider the drug cartels in South/Central America: Should they be given amnesty from their crimes because they profess willingness to give up their illegal activities in the future?

Islamic Jihad, Hamas, Al Aqsa ARE cold blooded murderers. Or hot blooded if you want to say they're stoked by nationalistic freedom aspiration. Regardless, they're murderers plain and simple.
 
Lets see.....
_ Aug. 3: A Palestinian gunman ambushes an Israeli car near the West Bank town of Bethlehem, badly wounding a woman and her 9-year-old daughter and slightly injuring two other children.

_ July 28: The body of an Israeli soldier who had been missing for a week is found in northern Israel. Police investigators suspect the 20-year-old serviceman was kidnapped and killed by Arabs.

_ July 25: An Israeli soldier fires a tank-mounted machine gun at a car stopped at a West Bank roadblock, killing a 5-year-old Palestinian boy. The military said the shooting was accidental.

_ July 15: A Palestinian stabs an Israeli man to death as he sits with his girlfriend on a Mediterranean beach promenade near the seaport of Jaffa.

_ July 7: A suicide bomber from a breakaway faction of Islamic Jihad blows up inside a house in central Israel, killing a 65-year-old woman.

_ June 30: A Palestinian gunman kills a Bulgarian laborer at work on the barrier Israel is constructing along its boundary line with the West Bank.

pascal wrote:
Anyway someone tried to make truce and then was hunted and killed. Dont you expect some reaction?
That goes both ways......
 
RussSchultz said:
Islamic Jihad, Hamas, Al Aqsa ARE cold blooded murderers. Or hot blooded if you want to say they're stoked by nationalistic freedom aspiration. Regardless, they're murderers plain and simple.
Again, do you believe it is really possible to have peace while hunting militant groups ?
 
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