Is OBLIVION Possible on the PS3 without a HDD?

[jvd]

Perhaps its not just hte hardrive but the fact that game informer is reporting the dev kits only have a 1x bluray drive . Perhaps this will be true of the final hardware ? That may not be enough to constantly stream off of

I'm surprised there's a Bluray drive there at all - the pic we had of the dev kit, from the front anyway, made it look like there was no drives.

Anyway, Oblivion's streaming system presumably has to work in the absence of a HD, so whilst it may make it easier/faster with it, it should not present an obstacle to making it work on a system without a HD (and thus, wouldn't be a technical obstacle to any PS3 port..although this is a highly theoretical discussion, and I wouldn't expect Oblivion on PS3. But not for tech reasons).

Game informer august page 17

Game informer has learned that at the time of this writing , the ps3 dev kits only utilize a 1x blu-ray drive , which runs at 6.75mb/s versus 360's use of the 12x dvd (at 16.65 MB/s) Thus , if the ps3 sticks with a 1x Blu-ray drive , athough it will have more capacity than a dvd , the x360 would access the info on the discs fsater

IT states that sony may use a 4x bluray drive but they don't know .

Personaly i could belive a 1x and 2x drive . Don't really think they will put a 4x in there though

 

[Powderkeg]

I think they should port to both systems and require the hd to play.
No hd should display a message that says this game requires a hd.

Too many people would return the game unhappy that they couldn't play it, and that is bad. The bad publicity would hurt their overall reputation, and possibly hurt future game sales.

 

[jvd]

The beauty of the game console is that its a self contained unit .

Anything needed for the games should come with it . So far in the life of consoles 2 things have broken this rule . Memory cards and controllers .

Everything else has never had a great attached rate . People are not going to want to buy large memory cards only for one game and having to buy a certian size card .

I've had morrow wind saves of 12 megs . Obviously the more u play the game the bigger it becomes

 

[Gollum]

I think there are only very few game designs, if any, that absolutely MUST have a HDD. Clever coding can make up for many deficiencies.

That doesn't change the fact that for certain types of games a HDD is just incredibly convenient for the developers. Games with complex continuous worlds can obviously profit from a HDD in many ways, to argue otherwise is nonsense! Be it caching, storing world information, saves or allowing user made content, a HDD will just make the developer's live a whole lot easier and offers lots of potential for speeding things up and allowing customization, its a simple as that!

Could such a game be done without HDD? Probably. Would it be easy to do? No, it'd require more effort, plenty of workarounds and some features might have to be cut.

 

[ShootMyMonkey]

AFAIK, the only basis for putting in a 4x Bluray drive is that 4x is the minimum for Bluray to exceed the throughput of 12x DVD... that is, if you assume a baseline of 36 Mbits/sec. With a 54 Mbit/s baseline, 4x would put it at near hard drive throughput (although it would still have lousy seek times). There's conflicting data on Bluray throughput, and I don't know if it's something akin to a 1.0 vs. 1.# version of the spec or something... but there's some data that says Bluray's throughput is 36 Mbits/sec, and some other data that says 54 Mbits/sec. I find the numbers a little too convenient in that 54 is exactly 36 * 1.5.

 

[jvd]

I dunno , i think 4x will be very expensive . I think 2x will be the sweet spot . I dunno if we will see 1x drives but it may be a possibilty . They may be very cheap compared to the other bluray drives .

 

[MechanizedDeath]

The beauty of the game console is that its a self contained unit .

Anything needed for the games should come with it . So far in the life of consoles 2 things have broken this rule . Memory cards and controllers .

Everything else has never had a great attached rate . People are not going to want to buy large memory cards only for one game and having to buy a certian size card .

I've had morrow wind saves of 12 megs . Obviously the more u play the game the bigger it becomes

But memory cards this gen will be in the hundreds of MBs. At least they should be when you can get a 256-512MB CF for under $40 easily. So if a gamer doesn't want to pay what amounts to normal memory card prices for such a price, then they simply shouldn't play the game. Set a minimum game save spec, and there's no problem. Seems pretty simple to me. And they can cap the save files anyway they want. If they cap it at 50MB, then after that peak is reached, then corpses or items or whatever start getting overwritten in the game. On a technical level, the game shouldn't need an HDD. Not unless there's a real need for high-speed streaming that can't be performed by an optical drive. But with only 512MB to play with, I find that hard to believe. PEACE.

 

[jvd]

40$ is fine for 256megs but to require someone to have to buy a 40$ memory card when they can get a 16 meg one for 10$ is going to be hard to do .

Even so needing a memory card of 256 megs for one game is going to be very hard to swallow . Esp a game that should have hundreds of hours of play time posible

 

[MechanizedDeath]

40$ is fine for 256megs but to require someone to have to buy a 40$ memory card when they can get a 16 meg one for 10$ is going to be hard to do .

Even so needing a memory card of 256 megs for one game is going to be very hard to swallow . Esp a game that should have hundreds of hours of play time posible

PS1 cards were either 128k or 256k. PS2 jumped to 8MB. Anyone expecting to get away with 16MB or anything under 100MB gets no pity from me, and gets exactly what they deserve. Let's not base this discussion on the ignorant cheapskates.

Second, no game will need a save file of 256MB. Those will be few and far between. But if a $30 card (note: I'm sticking to the same price as current-gen memory cards) is filled by the next-gen Madden, as the current gen game ate like half a card, then they will have to grin and bear it, period. The increase in capacity means nothing. It's the price that matters. Memory cards will cost like $30. Either swallow the cost, or don't. If someone didn't want to have to eat a whole memory card for one game this gen, they had the option of not buying the game. Seems very simple to me. PEACE.

 

[Sean*O]

Problem is, the dev hasn't explicitly said that there was a PS3 version in the first place. And thus, they haven't made any comment about why it might not be feasible on the PS3. This is all assumption based on what is now a baseless rumor. Take that how you will.

Well, there are probably several other places it can be verified that it was planned as a PS3 release, but here is one example: Game Informer, August, 2005, page 21.

Oblivion is an eagerly awaited Xbox 360 title, and when we did the exclusive cover story on the game (see issue #138) it was also being slated for the PS3.

So I guess that baseless rumor made it into print at least two times, the latest of which references an older article, and would not have been pointed out if the original article was in error.

 

[jvd]

PS1 cards were either 128k or 256k. PS2 jumped to 8MB. Anyone expecting to get away with 16MB or anything under 100MB gets no pity from me, and gets exactly what they deserve. Let's not base this discussion on the ignorant cheapskates.

except sony dictated the smallest memory card side. Now they are allowing sd and memory sticks which range in size from 4 megs (don't think sold anymore ) to 1 gig soon 2 gig . Thus allowing this the are stating that any of these sizes are for the ps3 .

Second, no game will need a save file of 256MB

Yet a game like oblivion may very well need more than 256 megs to run correctly thus the use of the hardrive. They may have features that need that space while active in the game . Its hard to say that u can make oblivion work right with out a hardrive when neither of us know the inner workings of the game .

Its apparent that the devs think they need the hdd .

 

[MechanizedDeath]

Well, there are probably several other places it can be verified that it was planned as a PS3 release, but here is one example: Game Informer, August, 2005, page 21.

So I guess that baseless rumor made it into print at least two times, the latest of which references an older article, and would not have been pointed out if the original article was in error.

But you mentioned Bethesda, not GI. Does GI have a 100% hit rate or something? As far as official word from the dev/pub responsible for this game, there's been none. The most I've read is that they said "next-generation systems". Not that it's not true, but there's no evidence this has ever been official. And even less evidence that plans were changed due to the lack of a HDD. If there's some official word on this, it will put it to rest. I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility, just that there's no reason to believe it at this point without some corroborating evidence. PEACE.

 

[Sean*O]

LOL,

I guess they just made it up?

Point taken though. If Bethesda ever bothers to make an official press release on this subject, leaving egg on Sony's face, I will point that out.

 

[MechanizedDeath]

except sony dictated the smallest memory card side. Now they are allowing sd and memory sticks which range in size from 4 megs (don't think sold anymore ) to 1 gig soon 2 gig . Thus allowing this the are stating that any of these sizes are for the ps3 .

Yet a game like oblivion may very well need more than 256 megs to run correctly thus the use of the hardrive. They may have features that need that space while active in the game . Its hard to say that u can make oblivion work right with out a hardrive when neither of us know the inner workings of the game .

Its apparent that the devs think they need the hdd .

1. Again, set the memory card size on the box. If you buy a small card for a cheap price and find you can't play a game b/c it's too big, then you have your own ignorance to blame. That or you can buy a bigger card. CF cards come in all sizes. But you'd have to be a fool to think you can get away with a small card when every other memory/storage spec has more than doubled. This is clutching straws. If you pay the normal price you would for a memory card ($30), you will get more than enough storage space for even the most diabolical PC game save file.

2. If they need more than 256MB, then they are doing something wrong. The space limitation is being questioned for downloadable content. That's a supplementary feature, not a mandatory one. So the PS3 version would just be without the expansions. I cannot fathom any mandatory gaming function that would require more than 256MB when they have to know that a good number of 360 owners won't even have broadband connections. And file sizes in the hundreds of MBs are prohibitive on dialup.

Is it impossible? No. But then, I don't know why the storage requirements for this game would jump by over ten-fold. They could modify the save function to fit within memory card restrictions, or axe the downloadable functionality or just post on the box, "ATTENTION: 256MB memory card owners am cry." If Square can make a HDD-only game for a system that had it as an add-on, Bethesda can make a game that only works with an add-on HDD or a 512MB card. I don't even think this game will come to the PS3, but I don't think it has anything to do with the lack of an HDD. Game saves should not approach 5% of the total game size. It would suggest ridiculous inefficiencies in the game. That or the game is generating huge chunks of content on the fly, which is still very unreasonable. I think this is a hollow argument. PEACE.

 

[MechanizedDeath]

LOL,

I guess they just made it up?

I made no such claim. Could they have gotten wrong info? Could they have confused the target systems? Could they just plain be wrong? Why exactly should we believe a mag claim that goes contrary to everything else we've seen on the official record? Again, I don't think it's ever gonna see the light of day on the PS3. But what proof is there that it was due to the HDD? That's the crux of the matter, that there's a glaring lack of it. PEACE.

 

[jvd]

1. Again, set the memory card size on the box.

which is just as limiting as needing hardrive support . Neither will have a 100% tie in ratio like on the xbox 360

2. If they need more than 256MB, then they are doing something wrong

I disagree. Have you played a game in the scope and vastness of oblivion ? From all i've read the only game bigger than it are mmorpg and even then only the more recent mmorpgs

What you don't seem to get is that if the game needs 256 mbs of room then your limiting the game to ps3 owners who have 256 mb sticks or up . Which is a smaller percentage of ps3 users . With the x360 you don't have that problem

 

[MechanizedDeath]

which is just as limiting as needing hardrive support . Neither will have a 100% tie in ratio like on the xbox 360

I disagree. Have you played a game in the scope and vastness of oblivion ? From all i've read the only game bigger than it are mmorpg and even then only the more recent mmorpgs

What you don't seem to get is that if the game needs 256 mbs of room then your limiting the game to ps3 owners who have 256 mb sticks or up . Which is a smaller percentage of ps3 users . With the x360 you don't have that problem

Restricting the game to a certain file size is not limiting. If you set it to a file size that fits within the limitations of a $30 card, then I don't see the problem. I'm assuming most PS3 owners will know to buy memory cards of a certain size or larger. Either from Sony, from devs, or from their friends and store clerks. Is it limiting to post a minimum PC spec on a PC game box? No. It's the smart thing to do to make sure customers know what they need to have before they put the cash down. So then PS3 games will have a memory card spec (which PS1 and PS2 games currently do), and PS3 owners will get used to checking this spec to make sure they have the required card space to save a game file.

As for Oblivion, neither of us know what game save files require. You're guessing as much as I am. Why do you choose to assume files will be a quantum leap larger than current Morrowind games, and larger than just about every PC game file we've got today? What's your reasoning? I thought your prior rationale was already debunked in this very thread.

Also, who knows what average PS3 owners will have for memory cards? Like I said, I got a Viking 256MB CF card LAST SUMMER for $30. You can currently find 512MB cards for $20 ($35 before rebate). You can find 1GB CF cards for $50. This is now, 8 months before the PS3 lands. I don't think I'm the one who doesn't understand here. You're assuming small memory cards and big save files. Basically the worst possible scenario. I'm assuming normal save files and big memory cards, which is what we currently have. If someone can't afford a 256-512MB card, and they're buying a $300 console for this specific game, then they get what they deserve. I see no point discussing this further. PEACE.

 

[jvd]

Restricting the game to a certain file size is not limiting

Of course it is . Please stop downplaying the limitations imposed by not having a hdd built in .

A restriction is a limit .

Is it limiting to post a minimum PC spec on a PC game box

Sure it is . If you put the minimum to high the game wont sell to those with pc specs lower than that .


Your trying to downplay the lack of a hardrive . However bethsda already trumpted up the hardrive in the xbox and now again the xbox 360 . ITs important for them and I'm going to go with the fact that as of now what they want to do is not possible on the ps3 . It certianly not power diffrences as surely the ps3 is at least as powerfull or on par with the xbox 360. So i'm going with the hardrive missing .


Bethasda obviously feels that the hardrive missing will not allow them to put the game on the ps3 or in doing so would change the game greatly and they are not willing to risk it .

Not to mention once again the game will be 6 months or older when it lands on the ps3 . Thus to sell well it will hae to launch with the console or around launch. Leading to price problems . Not everyone at launch is going to spend 40$ which is almost another game on a memory card . Not when you can get a smaller one for cheaper . Your looking at ps3 300$ or more , 100$ in games your at 400+ add in 20$ for a memory card and 30$ for a controller and your at 450$ + . If they need the hardrive then your looking at most likely another 75-100$ added on bringing you to 525-550 + to play this game .

Obviously they feel that is to expensive also other wise the game would be announced .

As for Oblivion, neither of us know what game save files require

I don't think they will be smaller than elder scrolls and i have saves over 10 megs . The whole world is supposed to be bigger with more npcs and more npcs that interact and aging for each npc among other new things .

a 10meg save is nothing , i wouldn't even think 20 megs for a save is a big deal on the pc sector

As for the ps3 . Owners will use current memory cards that work in it or new memory cards . I don't see someone spending 400$ on a system and 2 games and then diving in and buying a 50$ memory stick .

Let alone this is only saves you are discusing . Not hardrive acess which will now be gone .

 

[DotProduct]

The current Morrowind seems to depend on the XBox HDD. The HDD allows you to stream objects, textures, heightmaps and music all at once.

With DVD/Blueray only you are only able to stream one huge serial chunk of data, because you can´t afford to seek around o the disc.

Here you run into trouble for a game like Morrowind. Morrowind is 2-4 times more detailed than GTA (textures, geometry...) and even with 512/256 MB of ram you are probably forced to stream the heightmap/landscape data and certain textures and certain geometry.
According to the players position new textures, geometry and the heightmap are streamed and I cant see any way to store such data to generally minimize seek times.

So the hdd is an issue, but I am pretty sure that oblivian was never seriolsy planed for ps3.

Fans of the genre will get Oblivian for the PC or XBox360 and not wait for Ps3. The PS3 target audience isnt really the target group for Oblivian. Ps3 customers are used to linear -story telling- RPGS from japanese developers and not used to those free roaming rpgs we saw from time to time on the pc (U7, U8, Fallout1/2, Migh n Magic 6++, Baldurs Gate 2, Planetscape Torment, Gothic). Morrowind was an (successfull) experiment, but there is a reason why Final Fantasies sell more. Games like Morrowind were aimed at hardcore PC gamers and those people never tended to buy a Playstation. Some where temped by the XBox because of Kotor, Halo and Jade Empire. I think very few traditional console only gamers played Morrowind. Probably alot Morrowind XBox players where just sick of upgrading their PC.

 

[c0_re]

If there were a feasible way to bring it to PS3, would it not be reasonable to assume that the developers, who could potentially stand to gain million$ from accomplishing that feat, would have done so?

No because everyone on this board are smarter than a company that sold millions of copies the largest most complex PC\Console RPG ever.

Most likely the reason the saves are not huge is because all the data is indexed, referenced and compressed into a single file and while that is fine for saving the static data for the save data it's worthless for reading\writing\streaming in real time, the file is extracted and combined with standard game data off the DVDROM for use as part of the save\load process, and thats just to load up your saved game.

Hello? I'm pretty surprised I'm the first to mention this, and if Oblivion is possible without a hard drive how was a game like morrowind impossible without one, sure the Xbox is older but Oblivion is much much more complicated.

Another advantage is you can stream from more than one device, I've seen Xbox games that stream music\audio off the DVD-ROM and other game related stuff off the hard drive, Halo1 and 2 are perfect examples.

In the end though it's not a big deal it's on 360 and PC, chances are if you have a PS3 you'll also have one of those available to get your Elder Scrolls fix.