Image Quality and Framebuffer Analysis for Available/release build Games *Read the first post*

[grandmaster]

I'm not going to buy the PS3 version just to grab it (can't say I'm really THAT impressed with the 360 one to be honest), but the weirdo scaling method seems to be in MazingerDUDE's shots as well. Where there should be smooth lines, there are odd dimples, just as on 360.

It's as though vertical resolution is being stretched and rather then blur, they're doubling the odd line.

The pillaring is there by default by the way. I'm actually wondering if scaling down vertically will cure the sprites of their problems.

 

[AlNom]

It's as though vertical resolution is being stretched and rather then blur, they're doubling the odd line.

It may be worth noting that the oddity has a 5-5-6 regularity. (5-pixels from a pixel of the double pixel wide column to the next, 5-pixels to the next occurrence, then 6 pixels to the next, and then it starts again)

I'm not going to buy the PS3 version just to grab it

They don't offer a demo?

I'm actually wondering if scaling down vertically will cure the sprites of their problems.

It does but... hm...

 

[grandmaster]

That sounds like a 'nearest neighbor' Photoshop resize technique... it means that more than 12% of the character detail has been lost.

There's no playable demo that I can see on the US PSN, and it's not available at all in the EU.

 

[Rotmm]

There's no playable demo that I can see on the US PSN, and it's not available at all in the EU.

I'd wait until tomorrow, as Thursday is PSN day for demo's, movies and the like.

 

[rekator]

That sounds like a 'nearest neighbor' Photoshop resize technique... it means that more than 12% of the character detail has been lost.

There's no playable demo that I can see on the US PSN, and it's not available at all in the EU.

So the game is not a 1080p native?
If yes, why not using the hardware scaler of the 360? Who give good results.
On PS3 I understood the need to implement a good software scaler, but in this game it's seem to not be good?
And I don't think that SF2 use all the resourcse of the PS3 so you have room for made a really good software scaler, like the DVD upscale of the PS3.

 

[Gradthrawn]

I'd wait until tomorrow, as Thursday is PSN day for demo's, movies and the like.

Not for Thanksgiving. Update day was yesterday.

 

[grandmaster]

So the game is not a 1080p native?
If yes, why not using the hardware scaler of the 360? Who give good results.
On PS3 I understood the need to implement a good software scaler, but in this game it's seem to not be good?
And I don't think that SF2 use all the resourcse of the PS3 so you have room for made a really good software scaler, like the DVD upscale of the PS3.

The framebuffer is 1080p. It's a 1080p game. The backgrounds are full 1:1 1080p.

However, the character sprites have every fifth or sixth line doubled. I mean, if we can spot it, I'm sure the programmers would have done do too.

I'm wondering if it's a space-saving measure.

 

[user542745831]

The framebuffer is 1080p. It's a 1080p game. The backgrounds are full 1:1 1080p.

If you look at what AlStrong wrote:

Looking at the 720p shots closely, it seems the problems are still there, but are amplified (more noticeable) at 1080p. :s Perhaps a problem with the sprite technology they're using?

The environments appear to be fine (and even sharper than 720p upscaled to 1080p using a lanczos filter), so they're likely drawn at 1:1 pixel ratio.

It sounds as if he is saying or supposing, that the backgrounds are upscaled from 720p to 1080p when in 1080p mode.

Which is correct?

Furthermore:

The game isn't really 1080p, isn't it? Or at least not 1920 x 1080p. The horizontal resolution actually should be less because of those relatively big black pillarbox bars at the left and right side of the picture, shouldn't it?

Same seems to go to 720p mode, as those relatively big black pillarbox bars at the left and right side of the picture are there, too.

I'm wondering if it's a space-saving measure.

Could those pillarbox bars be a space saving measure, too?

Or do you think it's 'only' there to compensate overscan on some displays?

And, another question :

What exactly do you mean with space saving measure? Do you mean saving space for the actual PSN/XBLA download? Or some kind of hardware requirements saving because of 'hardware stress' or something like that?

Can't imagine the latter case, because both, PS3 and Xbox 360 should be cappable of drawing/rendering/what ever the game at full 1080p without much problems, shouldn't they?

 

[grandmaster]

When he says they're likely drawn at a 1:1 pixel ratio, I think from the grabs we can be fairly sure he's referring to 1080p, not 720p. Indeed, he's saying they're sharper than upscaled 720p.

I've no idea why the sidebars are there to be honest. The original SSF2T was 4:3 of course but I see no reason why these bars are there in an 'HD' remake. There already is a display option similar to Warhawk's for compensating for overscan so it's not there for that reason. It may well simply be that they did not want to generate more background scenery over above SSF2's original compositions, but that seems to be stretching reason a bit.

You're right about 1920x1080 of course, but 1080p - strictly speaking - refers only to the amounts of lines, not the precise horizontal and vertical resolution. You could work out the resolution simply by cropping the bars in Photoshop or whatever.

 

[AlNom]

Which is correct?

Sorry, I meant that the environments in the 1080p shots were sharper than the 720p shots scaled to 1080p using a lanczos filter, which the hardware scaler would have used by default. Even upscaling the 720p shots the same way would not have given the character aliasing issues; the 1080p shots are still clean, not blurry. And then, the fact that the environment does not exhibit the same character aliasing issues tells me something else is going on. Environments appear drawn as best as can be.

On a side note there was some neat discussion on sprite rendering on current gen consoles awhile back: http://forum.beyond3d.com/showthread.php?t=37705

 

[user542745831]

Thank you for your replies.

You could work out the resolution simply by cropping the bars in Photoshop or whatever.

720p without the big black pillarbox bars at the left and right side of the picture:
1216 x 720

1080p without the big black pillarbox bars at the left and right side of the picture:
1824 x 1080

 

[MazingerDUDE]

http://www3.telus.net/public/dhwag/RYU.jpg

This is one of the screen shots released earlier, there're quite few of them if you search places like IGN.

I believe this represents the native drawing res of character sprites.

I merged it to the Grandmaster's 1080P capture,

http://www3.telus.net/public/dhwag/RYU2.jpg

As you can see, the in game characters are upscaled about 10% from its original size.

The upscale method seems very primitive leaving artifacts, but it somehow maintains the sharpness

Considering how the back ground is done at native 1080P, I think they chose this method to avoid having blurrier looking character to the backgrounds.

Then again, why didn't they draw the characters just 10% bigger to begin with?

 

[grandmaster]

Good work there, I think you've cracked it. Definitely looks as though the whole character artwork is being blown up in a rather ugly manner.

 

[Richard]

<snip>Then again, why didn't they draw the characters just 10% bigger to begin with?

Nice work man. As for why, I suppose this has probably something to do with animation budget concerning either ram (unlikely) or download size. AFAIK (someone more in touch the console side correct me please) the current XBLA limit is at 350Mb, with this game being widely reported as the one to change MS's mind about keeping the original 150Mb limit.

So, unlike backgrounds which are mostly static (or crudely animated - some parts of some sets required at most 6 frames for a waving arm, pedalling cyclist, etc.) the characters require tons of animations so even a 10% reduction in pixel area means huge gains for the entire animated frame budget.

 

[rounin]

Why is the resolution for PS3 Far Cry 2 listed as a white font on a white background? Does that mean its not confirmed?

 

[user542745831]

Nice work man. As for why, I suppose this has probably something to do with animation budget concerning either ram (unlikely) or download size. AFAIK (someone more in touch the console side correct me please) the current XBLA limit is at 350Mb, with this game being widely reported as the one to change MS's mind about keeping the original 150Mb limit.

So, unlike backgrounds which are mostly static (or crudely animated - some parts of some sets required at most 6 frames for a waving arm, pedalling cyclist, etc.) the characters require tons of animations so even a 10% reduction in pixel area means huge gains for the entire animated frame budget.

So, if it's because of download size, what about the 720p mode then? Do you think the 720p characters and backgrounds are unique ones, that do use their own space?

So that there is used space for the 720p versions and 1080p versions.

If yes, wouldn't that be a waste of space? To make only 1080p backgrounds and real 1080p characters would have saved some space then, wouldn't it?

The 720p mode then could be a downscaled version from 1080p, couldn't it?

Furthermore:

You are talking about XBLA. What about PSN? Is there such a restriction/limit in download size, too? Because it seems, as if the PS3 version has upscaled 1080p characters, too.

Why is the resolution for PS3 Far Cry 2 listed as a white font on a white background? Does that mean its not confirmed?

Would like to know that, too.

For Xbox 360 it says:

Far Cry 2 = 1280x696 (2xAA, centered on 720p window)

Isn't it a 'letterbox' in this case instead of a 'window'?

 

[Richard]

So, if it's because of download size, what about the 720p mode then? Do you think the 720p characters and backgrounds are unique ones, that do use their own space?

So that there is used space for the 720p versions and 1080p versions.

I don't believe they're using separate 720p and 1080p versions of the characters, no. Backgrounds, as I mentioned, can be handled differently and is probably worth it to have 1:1 @ 1080p and downsampled for 720p.

The 720p mode then could be a downscaled version from 1080p, couldn't it?

It could, if the characters were 1:1 @ 1080p. What MazingerDUDE uncovered is that characters possibly aren't 1:1 in either 720p or 1080p. They're likely stored once and (down/up)sampled for both resolutions.

You are talking about XBLA. What about PSN? Is there such a restriction/limit in download size, too? Because it seems, as if the PS3 version has upscaled 1080p characters, too.

This is hand-drawn 2D art. Even if they didn't have limits on the other version it's not cost effective to double your animation budget so that one version can be slightly (?) better than the other. Someone more knowledgeable of the current download limits should chime in.

 

[AlNom]

Someone more knowledgeable of the current download limits should chime in.

The general limit for XBLA games is indeed 350MB. There will be exceptions made on a case-by-case basis, of course. With their biggest memory card being 512MB subtract 128MB for the NXE, that leaves 384 for profiles and other content. It seems they're cutting it close at 368MB for the game.

AFAIK, there is no limit for PSN.

edit:
tid bits of info from their blog

-Each character has roughly 200 (+ or 50) frames of animation
-The art for each frame is cut up and stored as a bunch of rectangles, or tiles. When the game needs a piece of art, it calls for the specific tiles it needs and reassembles the frame. This is more efficient because many of the sequential frames only have slight changes in them and the code will only call for those changes.


Comparing their original art to the new art (much fewer colour shades), they likely saved a fair bit of space there as well.

 

[user542745831]

edit:
grabbing tid bits of info from their blog

Assuming you got that from this source:

http://blogs.capcomusa.com/blogs/digital.php/2007/06/29/thawk_art_how_they_do_it

?

 

[djskribbles]

Why is the resolution for PS3 Far Cry 2 listed as a white font on a white background? Does that mean its not confirmed?

I don't think its been confirmed, but some people seem to think its the same, except they used QAA instead, which explains the slightly blurrier image.