Image Quality and Framebuffer Analysis for Available/release build Games *Read the first post*

Since you basically keep saying the same thing (that it's only a destructive process, correct me if I'm wrong) I will simply address all here if you don't mind.

First let's recall AA we are talking about here is loosely the act of doing something to get rid of aliasing. MSAA for example is trying to address the issue for edge aliasing since mathematical edges practically introduce infinite frequency that cannot be displayed on any finite pixel, thus introduce aliasing.

The real AA would be getting rid of those extra frequencies on analog/continues space before sampling at the resolution of the display. Getting rid of extra frequencies generally means applying a low-pass filter. Concisely AA is applying low-pass filter before sampling (or something equivalent).

The reason blind low-pass after sampling doesn't work is basically the low-pass band your final signal can carry is already "corrupted" by aliasing.

Because how rasterisation works real AA is not practical. The second best thing is emulating the continues space with a higher resolution discrete space (aliasing of which is less then aliasing of lower resolution sampling), and do the downsampling from there. This is called SSAA also how bullshots are created. Downscaling is applying low-pass filtering and undersampling in this order (which is also what proper interpolation is equivalent to).

Since this is also expensive, MSAA tries to emulate SSAA for edges only. So What MSAA does when resolving pixels is low-pass filter (average 2 or more samples) and then only pick one (subsample).
Of course that low pass filter is a poor one, and the aliasing for higher resolution samples is generally significant but not a bad effort overall.

The moral of the story is MSAA already "blurs" before subsampling. QAA just uses a different low-pass filter, something arguably stronger (but not necessarily better). And it's not equivalent to MSAA + blur for edge pixels (since those extra samples are potentially from different surfaces).
Hence, you cannot come up with a blur filter to apply after 2xMSAA that gives the same edge quality as QAA.

Your explanation it's really appreciates but I found the whole discussion only based on the point to pass the concept QAA 'suck' than on technical matter here :???: when simply depend of the use of it. It's pretty notice to anyone who a minimal knowing in the matter that any AA filter 'destroy' the details in the sharpness of the picture, surely not at the level of QAA but there are a lot of variables when we compare different filter edge. The whole discussion seems try to pass the concept only in favour of a personal taste & no more from what I have readen until now, although the technical explanations are ever appreciable.
 
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You're not serious about either of those comments...are you? :???:
Sure
#1 I hope youre not suggesting that QAA is gonna be quicker than 2xAA, as thats logically impossible. At best in a perfect scenario it will be the same speed since its goes
Do 2xAA, then do a blur.
#2 why not, some games let u choose the resolution already eg GT5 prologue I believe lets u either play at a higher res + less AA or lower res + more AA.
Now say the games target is Xresolution with 4xAA, I + the other users would like to have the option to dial the AA down (with a possible improvement in FPS)
 
Uh ? 3-4 ms is not exactly free...

But I thought that Quincunx was the only AA that the RSX supported in hardware, and is by far the cheapest AA you can get on the PS3? Isn't the cost of 2xAA on RSX much higher than Quincux?
 
Speaking of Quincunx ;)

Yet the lighting/contrast for the PS3 shots seems anything but dull ... But hey, Quincunx seems appropriate for a title called Blur. ;)

I have it from very reliable source (i.e. the dev programming it) that the lighting on the PS3 is done with SPU assistance.
 
Just look at the mirror frame on PC shots, its quite clean.

Also I was actually shocked to see boxy pixels on both console shots when i loaded up that image on firefox, but then I realized the browser was displaying a zoomed in image. :)
 
Yet the lighting/contrast for the PS3 shots seems anything but dull ... But hey, Quincunx seems appropriate for a title called Blur. ;)

The contrast setting is to high making it look worse. VHS effect anyone?

But yes Blur and therefore blur.
 
Oh there is AA in the PC shots. Seems to have trouble on certain edges.

Hmm yes I noticed it on the other images wher it is more pronounced. Got that BFBC2 problem. That is what happens when they stick to a 7-8 year old API called DX9.

Just look at the mirror frame on PC shots, its quite clean.

Also I was actually shocked to see boxy pixels on both console shots when i loaded up that image on firefox, but then I realized the browser was displaying a zoomed in image. :)

Well it is nice they got MSAA for the mirrors and high-res, not all racing games have MSAA for mirrors. Also the image is 2560x4462 7MB so PC version was set to 2560x1600 and the console images upscaled. Huh...
 
Is the 360 version 2xMSAA? I thought it was 4x.
Just look at the overpass bridge jaggies. I'd say both 2xMSAA and 2xQAA are comparable, as in they're both crap.
Also the far away crowd in the 360 version has the GTA4-style dithering...interesting.
 
But I thought that Quincunx was the only AA that the RSX supported in hardware, and is by far the cheapest AA you can get on the PS3? Isn't the cost of 2xAA on RSX much higher than Quincux?
2xAA, QAA, 4xAA are all done in hardware with the RSX, 2xAA is cheaper than QAA.
for the last time

The only reason developers use QAA instead of 2xAA is cause they think it gives a better result visually NOT because its faster (or has less memory requirements)
 
Sure
#1 I hope youre not suggesting that QAA is gonna be quicker than 2xAA, as thats logically impossible. At best in a perfect scenario it will be the same speed since its goes
Do 2xAA, then do a blur.

That's not how it works. There's not some extra step added on the end that performs a blur. The hardware just uses a different filter when resolving the subsamples. Anyway my issue was the part of your comment where you stated that developers choose it simply because it performs worse.

#2 why not, some games let u choose the resolution already eg GT5 prologue I believe lets u either play at a higher res + less AA or lower res + more AA.
Now say the games target is Xresolution with 4xAA, I + the other users would like to have the option to dial the AA down (with a possible improvement in FPS)

Not too long ago, MSAA was simple. Your backbuffer and depth buffer has some number of subsamples, you'd render your geometry to it, and then it would get resolved upon being presented to the front buffer. For modern games this is no longer the case. With deferred rendering, HDR, and other post-processing techniques MSAA is no longer as simple as flipping some isolated switch. Instead more and more parts of the pipeline have to become "MSAA aware", which starts to require that your rendering pipeline be designed with a specific approach towards MSAA in mind. This is especially true for console games, where weird hardware-specific quirks come into play. Thus it's becoming less and less practical to offer the user a smorgasbord of MSAA types and gracefully handle all of them.

There of course plenty of non-technical reasons for why offering MSAA as option would be a bad idea (and they're probably a lot more convincing), but since this is a technical forum I won't mention them here.
 
That's not how it works. There's not some extra step added on the end that performs a blur. The hardware just uses a different filter when resolving the subsamples. Anyway my issue was the part of your comment where you stated that developers choose it simply because it performs worse.
yes blur was the wrong word, though I dont think I said dev's choose it cause it performs worse, they choose it because they believe it looks better visually than 2xAA.
yes heres what I said
thus the developers believe it looks better thus they choose it.

#2 its not *that* technically challenging, in fact its quite simple, note im saying give ppl the option of being able to switch things off (lower quality), not the opposite eg adding higher AA whatever since that can run into issues with memory etc
 
I think the monitor sizes also play a factor here. Developers don't exactly do their work with 40"+ screens where QAA's inadequacies really stick out.

Anyway, any word on Blur? The game that is :p
 
I think the monitor sizes also play a factor here. Developers don't exactly do their work with 40"+ screens where QAA's inadequacies really stick out.

Anyway, any word on Blur? The game that is :p

Most developers I know work with smaller TVs (e.g. 32"), but they put them on their desks, which means pixels are much, much bigger visually than a 50" in a living room.
 
yes blur was the wrong word, though I dont think I said dev's choose it cause it performs worse, they choose it because they believe it looks better visually than 2xAA.
yes heres what I said

Well you actually said "QAA is actually slower than 2xAA, thus the developers believe it looks better thus they choose it.". I took that first "thus" to mean that that QAA being slower causes developers to believe it looks better. But if that's not what you meant, then there's no point in arguing over wording. :p
 
Nice try zed and Rolf N. You can lead a horse to water ... nice tech breakdown Rolf N, good summary, overview for newbs, and refresher for others. Kudos.
 
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