If Wii become number 1

[Silenti]

they say you can bring the horse to the water but you can't make it drink. i guess that at the end of the day those people who for one reason or another insist to not play on a nintendo console will find their reasons not to.. anything from 'but these are not the mature titles i meant - i meant exactly the *insert their favourite console here* titles!' to 'i can't allow to be seen playing a nintendo! i'm a pimply teen with maturity complexes and my peers will ridicule the living snot out of me' will do for a reason for those people.

Lots of replies for me today it seems. I'm through defending my background, though the assumptions around here are dead wrong. I owned an N64 for that particular generation. Goldeneye multiplayer owned my life for half a year.

 

[scooby_dooby]

they say you can bring the horse to the water but you can't make it drink. i guess that at the end of the day those people who for one reason or another insist to not play on a nintendo console will find their reasons not to.. anything from 'but these are not the mature titles i meant - i meant exactly the *insert their favourite console here* titles!' to 'i can't allow to be seen playing a nintendo! i'm a pimply teen with maturity complexes and my peers will ridicule the living snot out of me' will do for a reason for those people.

Please. The reason people labelled the cube as a kiddy console is because it WAS. You pointing out a bare handful of mature games does not change this, most gamers need a steady stream of mature titles, not 1 every 3 years.

Nintendo made it's own bed with gamecube, it's no-one's fault but their own. I've always been a huge N fanb0y but they've been getting worse and worse since N64, steadily having less and less mature titles and more kiddy stuff.

 

[RancidLunchmeat]

So are you saying that women don't like video games, or women don't like video games that are made for men? From what I gather, the majority of Nintendogs owners are girls.

So maybe women do like video games, you just have to give them the type of game that appeals to them. Your girlfriend might like a workout "game" that includes Tae Bo, pilates, aerobics, etc...

She does, and that's the only game she "plays" for than 15 minutes at a time.

What I'm saying is that women like games that can be played from start to finish in 15 minutes. That's why they like games like bejeweled and snood and cell phone games.

That's also why there's no reason to buy an entire console for the sort of simplistic games that are offered by devices of much lower power. (Or via download from Xbox Live)

 

[darkblu]

Please. The reason people labelled the cube as a kiddy console is because it WAS. You pointing out a bare handful of mature games does not change this, most gamers need a steady stream of mature titles, not 1 every 3 years.

i was far from trying to list all the mature/non-kiddie titles on the cube, i was merely giving examples that i thought might have been of interest to one particular poster, namely Silenti.

and '1 in every 3 years' is a cute hyperbole, alas hardly pertinent to the discussion at hand.

Nintendo made it's own bed with gamecube, it's no-one's fault but their own. I've always been a huge N fanb0y but they've been getting worse and worse since N64, steadily having less and less mature titles and more kiddy stuff.

ok, along the same anecdotal line then

/me check his compact and tightly-selected cube library for the past two years: 7 titles (actually 9 but i'm excluding the last two titles that i got out of pure technical curiousity and did not play for more than 24 hours), with respective ESRBs: 1x 'E', 5x 'T', 1x 'M' (before you jump to the wrong conclusion, the one 'E' is a racer). 0x zeldas, 0x marios.

exclusively kiddie, eh?

for comparison, my ps2 library (for less than a year of ps2 ownership): 7 titles - 1x 'E', 3x 'T', 3x 'M' (one of the mature ones is pure crap, but, oh well, i got it with the intention to actually play it so i count it in)

 

[Ooh-videogames]

Please. The reason people labelled the cube as a kiddy console is because it WAS. You pointing out a bare handful of mature games does not change this, most gamers need a steady stream of mature titles, not 1 every 3 years.

Nintendo made it's own bed with gamecube, it's no-one's fault but their own. I've always been a huge N fanb0y but they've been getting worse and worse since N64, steadily having less and less mature titles and more kiddy stuff.

I disagree, actually somewhat. The N64 launched with one of the most (if you call it mature) titles for any console launch in that era, called Turok. Humans had blood skeeting from their necks. Nintendo console started to flounder due to development cost(i.e cartridge format, development environment, third party support that dropped like a bomb). This made Nintendo the main supplier of titles for their console. Any titles released for the console, which helped the console to survive, were Banjo, DK, Pokemon, and the list goes on.

We move on to GC, this stigma is unavoidable. Mainly because many eastern thirdparty devs, as well as western devs, immediately labeled the console as kiddy console. I remember Kojima commented that GC is a childs console. Konami execs used the same words, thus giving us Mickey Mouse games. Nintendo couldn't even get ports, I believe TP devs gave the console its label. Particularly in the first two years of the console life.

 

[Legend]

I think the gaming industry is at a cross section this time. the difference between PS3 and Rev in direction and philosaphy are very different. just like what PSP had effected the handheld market, I think PS3 and Rev will determine how the future consoles will be made. will we see cheaper systems with not so cutting egde tech in them? or will we see high-end expensive efforts that push the envelope? (X2 can be added to the PS3 circle).

if both directions succeed, we will see another round of it. and another and another, till the world choses its next 'sweet spot'.

 

[pc999]

That is very much my point. Graphics don't matter so much for certain kinds of games. I would argue they matter a great deal for say a FPS. If your game has a cartoon/cell shaded look, they don't matter as much even in an FPS or 3rd Person Shooter, but the closer you get to simulation and the farther from fantasy, the more it matters for suspension of disbelief.

Personally I am not really interested in being more less realism, just game(play) features.

Here's some of the difference in our experiences then. I don't know anyone who plays/ has an interest in playing because of control complexity. The only complaint I have heard even close to game difficulty was "I don't like dying." Yet she still plays at times. She apparently wants a Wii. Not for any reasons relating to ease of use, but for nostalgia. She likes Mario.

Why they die? The people I know die because they have a bad control of the game.

Please clarify. I'm not quite sure what you are saying here and I don't want to assume. Other than RTS is about as complex as it gets short of maybe some MMORPG's like Eve. Even that would be arguable.

Giving examples:

1) pick up a racing simulation gaming (even not pure simulation), those usualy have a very simple control layout yet many find them very hard to control and a new gamer or even just one that dont like very much this kind of game (like me) will probably pass more time against the walls than in the road. I guess than Wii remote (or DS3) things will be much easier to control.

If a new gamer try a game like Ghost Recon they will probably be kiled fast if they only use the trigers+ thumbsticks and from what I saw with some friends I need to gave them a lot of help to make a more extensive use of the control so they can still alive.

I think this happen with most games that arent "arcade like".

Strangely enough, the women I know who do play games, play YoHoHo Puzzle Pirates, Sims, etc. I'm still not sure why. They will play RTS sometimes, so it is not being intimidated by the control scheme. The closer to a sim the game comes, the less they seem to be interested in it.

I should have wrote this diferently as I wanted to speak from woman in on side but also from anyone who dont play on the other.

For one I as trying to show that very few woman will/would buy a 360/PS3 as I doubt many would like any of the games presented, yet they like to play other games and if a console can deliver those games they will sucessefull get a new market.

On other example think in any working man who dont play games, I dont think this man will ever play a game like those we saw in 360/PS3 but he may be interesting in play a while a baseball game here you swing the ___(whatever they call it). Many may like it to stress out the day or just do the same with a BT like game. This is a kind of game that there is not in any other console and like in the above case it will have market if well made.

Many people can became a gamer if there is games for them.

Oddly, they love to watch something like GRAW or HALO and shout out instructions, but are reluctant to play themselves. Haven't quite figured that one out yet.

A woman who like to give orders , who ever thought in that.

Please clarify. Sorry, but I have learned not to try to read too much into what people are trying to say when I have trouble figuring it out. Causes all kinds of trouble. I am trying to take others peoples viewpoints into account, the only people I know.

From the reports we heard you dont need to do much movement or need space with the remote, with basebol or golf games you need a bit more but for the rest no.

This is the kind of comment I find particularly funny. To my "casual gaming" friends, I am the hardcore. I delve into places like Beyond3d, avscience, arstechnica, have a history in the networking industry, setup and internet business when it was still hard to do, was asked to help design a few MUD's as well. To the crew on here, I'm not a programmer or an artist so I'm the "casual gamer." It just like politics, to liberals I'm a conservative, and to conservatives I'm a liberal.

I think the definition depends on the investiment from the person (time/money/info...)

My question about the Wii and its success stands. If it the most purchased, but the owners primarily use it as a secondary console and purchase multiplatform games on their primary, then how much of a success do you consider Wii?

My answer here would be dependent on proffit.

 

[fearsomepirate]

Please. The reason people labelled the cube as a kiddy console is because it WAS. You pointing out a bare handful of mature games does not change this, most gamers need a steady stream of mature titles, not 1 every 3 years.

I assume you meant exclusives. Because out of my 30-odd Gamecube games, 24 are most definitely not "kid" games, and 2 of the "kid" games are nostalgia compilations targeted at older gamers (Sonic and Mega Man). And I'm even letting you count F-Zero and Metal Arms as kid games, just to be on the safe side. And I don't even have any of the Splinter Cells or Mortal Kombats. And don't play that "This game doesn't count because I think it sucks" crap.

See, this is what I'm talking about. Perception > Facts. In the USA, there were 25 M-rated titles released for the N64. But for the Cube, there 41 M-rated games. I think the "kiddy" perception is for a simple reason: they chose a freakin' purple lunchbox as the image they wanted to sell. It doesn't matter how many heads the Prince of Persia slices off, how many quintuple uppercuts Scorpion lands, or how many throats Sam Fisher slits. It's a purple lunchbox, and it is therefore kiddy. Even Mario managed to come across as more childish than his N64 iteration. This reminds me of an officemate of mine saying "The Gamecube is for kids. I prefer games like Madden and Fight Night."

(By the way, the Teen comparison is Gamecube: 174, N64: 41)

 

[darkblu]

fearsome, you're wasting your time (like i wasted mine too) - scooby does not care about those statistics - if he cared he could've looked them up himself. alas they're not a good as his hyperbole. basically, a classical case of the proverbial horse by the river.

 

[OtakingGX]

That's also why there's no reason to buy an entire console for the sort of simplistic games that are offered by devices of much lower power. (Or via download from Xbox Live)

That's where marketing comes to play, with Nintendo advertising the thing not as a console, but as a lifestyle accessory.

 

[scooby_dooby]

fearsome, you're wasting your time (like i wasted mine too) - scooby does not care about those statistics - if he cared he could've looked them up himself. alas they're not a good as his hyperbole. basically, a classical case of the proverbial horse by the river.

Not only have the exclusives gotten much worse since the SNES era, but the 3rd party had dried up. If you want to give me statistics, give me the number of PS2 & XBOX games that gamecube owners completely missed out on, i bet there's hundreds.

Of course there are 'some' good mature GC games, but nowhere near as many as the other platforms, that's not even up for debate.

N has steadily been heading in this direction for many years, and I only see it getting worse with Wii.

 

[Ty]

I think a large part of the issue is simply that Nintendo has certain franchises are so tied up in their image (Mario, Zelda, Warioware, Pikmin, Marioparty, Mariokart, etc) that ARE more kid oriented that it greatly overshadows 3rd party support on the GCN and the mature reputation these titles might bring with them.

Moreover, titles that are multiplatform may not perceptually be linked to any one platform and therefore no matter the maturity rating, they aren't helping or hurting the GCN in this regard.

 

[fearsomepirate]

Not only have the exclusives gotten much worse since the SNES era,

Yes. If only we could return to the classic days of Boogerman and Pirates of Dark Water. The console with the most games has both the best and worst games. That's just the way things roll.

but the 3rd party had dried up.

Perception: 3rd party support is on the wane.
Fact: Gamecube got more 3rd party support than N64 did. 3rd party support is increasing, not decreasing.

Of course there are 'some' good mature GC games, but nowhere near as many as the other platforms, that's not even up for debate.

Don't change the subject. Just admit you were wrong about the GC being more "kiddy" than the N64, and we'll let you leave this battleground with your honor intact. If you want to talk about exclusives, yes, Cube got the shaft on exclusives this gen, getting even fewer than Xbox.

N has steadily been heading in this direction for many years, and I only see it getting worse with Wii.

Perception: Everything got worse with Gamecube
Fact: 3rd party support, attach rate, M-rated games, and T-rated games all increased by a significant amount over the N64 era, despite lower overall hardware sales. In everything except total hardware sales, N64 was easily the lowest point for Nintendo home consoles. Gamecube went a long way toward restoring 3rd-party relationships, getting more games into the hands of owners, and increasing the diversity of the library.

 

[TheChefO]

Perception

As it is right now, I'd say the overall perception from the average Joe concerning games consoles is:

adult
xbox
ps2
gamecube
kid

How close they fall into that order how true it is isn't important. Generally I think we can all agree the most "kid unfriendly" system was xbox last gen yes? Given that, I'm assuming parents who purchased a system for their kids mostly chose gc/ps2. How will parents purchase trends follow this generation? With the very large price disparity between Sony and Nintendos offering's I think it's clear this will drive these parents down one very clear path. Wii!!

 

[Silenti]

Perhaps this question deserves its own thread, but has there ever been a discussion on what causes fanboism? Short of religion I'm not sure I have ever encountered such an attitude elsewhere. Not in movies, books, sometimes in politics, etc. How unique is this phenomenom to games/consoles and why? If it were the software, you would expect other types of media to display the same traits in its followers; But it isn't present. I don't see it in consumer electronics hardware, in car preference, etc. What is it about games and the attachement of identity? I've never encountered it for Nvidia vs. Ati, not in Sony vs. Toshiba, Dell vs. IBM, Chevy vs. Ford. The level of vitriol just isn't present on the scale it is with video game consoles. It is not just brand loyalty, the money invested, the public awareness attached. Brand loyalty, an expectation of quality, doesn't promote this on the scale we see it in video games. Money? There are far more expensive and visible items about an individual from cars to clothes to homes, and they don't see this kind of reaction. What is it about games? Personal customization cannot be the reason, it is relatively new and there are other, far more visible elements of life, that speak about the individual than a games console. I don't see people fight in motorcycle, car, tattoo forums or groups the way that people fight about video game console choices, so what is it?

 

[Powderkeg]

Perhaps this question deserves its own thread, but has there ever been a discussion on what causes fanboism? Short of religion I'm not sure I have ever encountered such an attitude elsewhere.

You haven't been following the World Cup games much, have you?

Wherever there is competition there is a degree of fanatics who support one side with seemingly irrational ferocity.

Sports, politics, religion, cars, etc... Competition breeds fans, and the stronger the competition the more radical the fans.

 

[Powderkeg]

As it is right now, I'd say the overall perception from the average Joe concerning games consoles is:

adult
xbox
ps2
gamecube
kid

How close they fall into that order how true it is isn't important. Generally I think we can all agree the most "kid unfriendly" system was xbox last gen yes? Given that, I'm assuming parents who purchased a system for their kids mostly chose gc/ps2. How will parents purchase trends follow this generation? With the very large price disparity between Sony and Nintendos offering's I think it's clear this will drive these parents down one very clear path. Wii!!

Being a parent myself I can honestly say that 99% of what steers me down a specific path to buying a product for my child is her preference. Price be damned, I get her what she wants.

And when she wants something I am unwilling to pay for, the answer is no. If I can't get her exactly what she wants then she will have to go without until I can get her what she wants, or until she decides she wants something different.

I don't bother trying to find cheaper alternatives that she may not want. Even if the system is $400 cheaper you wouldn't save any money by buying an unwanted system, you would simple waste money on a system that isn't likely to get played.

 

[TheChefO]

Being a parent myself I can honestly say that 99% of what steers me down a specific path to buying a product for my child is her preference. Price be damned, I get her what she wants.

And when she wants something I am unwilling to pay for, the answer is no. If I can't get her exactly what she wants then she will have to go without until I can get her what she wants, or until she decides she wants something different.

I don't bother trying to find cheaper alternatives that she may not want. Even if the system is $400 cheaper you wouldn't save any money by buying an unwanted system, you would simple waste money on a system that isn't likely to get played.

Ok so role reversal here: If you were a kid this Christmas and wanted to convince your parents to get you one of the new "hip next gen" consoles, which would you target?

With the price tag for ps3 being very high, it could be problematic and place you in the "wait/no" category. With Wii the price being the cheapest of all three the answer should be a yes or at least the most preferable of all three. Would you risk the "no" and ask for a ps3 or go for the much more likely "yes" and likely have a new system?

 

[TheChefO]

Perhaps this question deserves its own thread, but has there ever been a discussion on what causes fanboism? Short of religion I'm not sure I have ever encountered such an attitude elsewhere. Not in movies, books, sometimes in politics, etc. How unique is this phenomenom to games/consoles and why? If it were the software, you would expect other types of media to display the same traits in its followers; But it isn't present. I don't see it in consumer electronics hardware, in car preference, etc. What is it about games and the attachement of identity? I've never encountered it for Nvidia vs. Ati, not in Sony vs. Toshiba, Dell vs. IBM, Chevy vs. Ford. The level of vitriol just isn't present on the scale it is with video game consoles. It is not just brand loyalty, the money invested, the public awareness attached. Brand loyalty, an expectation of quality, doesn't promote this on the scale we see it in video games. Money? There are far more expensive and visible items about an individual from cars to clothes to homes, and they don't see this kind of reaction. What is it about games? Personal customization cannot be the reason, it is relatively new and there are other, far more visible elements of life, that speak about the individual than a games console. I don't see people fight in motorcycle, car, tattoo forums or groups the way that people fight about video game console choices, so what is it?

Exclusivity on the platform. If every game played on every platform there would be much less fanboiism. The tech alone does get some merit, but compare nvidia v ati fanbois compared to console fanbois.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Perhaps this question deserves its own thread, but has there ever been a discussion on what causes fanboism? Short of religion I'm not sure I have ever encountered such an attitude elsewhere...

This is more a topic for the RPSC forum as you're talking sociology and human behaviour, not consoles. But it's the same thing as sports team fanaticism, patriotism, street-gang-ism, and all sorts of other isms, where reason to support a 'brand' fanatically and unquestioningly isn't based on any point other than a choice, or even chance event such as where you happened to be born. It does seem confined to some areas more than others. I don't know anyone fanatical about a particular brand of coffee or particular holiday destination in the same way some are fanatical about a particular brand of console of football team. But on almost any level you do get people having preferences where they won't consider alternatives and think them lesser, based on no reasons other than being a fan. I don't know of any studies into the range and depth of fanatic support.