Heavy Rain [PS3]

[Yemeth]

@green.pixel

Hello! You can find my opinion of Heavy Rain earlier in the thread.

Even though I agree with many of your points (just as the story is bad, the ego of Mr. Cage seems as gigantic and sometimes I fear that the success of Heavy Rain will give us another bad story game from Quantic Dream), I disagree that the game is bad. Why?

Because people, IMO, get constantly mixed up into peripheral things like QTEs! But, IMO, it is all about these things:

a) immersion (how many times, especially us who played hundreds of games (me since playing H.E.R.O. as a kid in 198x, have started to loose the immersion many times and play mechanically; same thing with movies where you often know all the tricks of the screenwriters etc.), in my case the QTEs were great for being immersed and "forgetting the controls" and finally not thinking about playing part/level xy perfectly; also for a newbie in video games I do not see ANY game that is better than Heavy Rain

b) No "normal" ending/branching (as I see you mentioned the masterpiece and "more than a game" Planescape: Torment you maybe also remember e.g. Wing Commander etc. who all had branchings and changing storylines, but in time because of cost issues and "designer decisions" it was used more and more seldomly)

c) feelings, yes games should give you and leave you with feelings; we can forget about a new "What can change the nature of man?", but Heavy Rain has some fantastic moments, some hyped up games left me really cold (ok, maybe that's a feeling too ) on the other end

b is the best thing for me, because finally replays are not only disencouraged, but also you have your personal story (strangely I love Demon's Souls with a "bit" different approach ). So character x gets killed, no problem, the story goes on. Of course, Heavy Rain cannot simulate it perfectly, because it then would be a life simulator, not a game, but IMO it is a start. I'd trade a game like Fahrenheit/Heavy Rain for the n-th shooter et al any day... But I digress... This is the very same thing I adored with Planescape, you had your own story/character etc., so my ending is not the same as yours, my thoughts and path is not the same as yours and this is what I really hope PC and video games will go to and that all the genres will just be vehicles for the same mindset.

BTW, those that say that game x is not innovative should really check when they really saw a innovative game. I always remember a great joke moment from 3rd Rock from the Sun where the John Lithgow character says that the book is a plagiatory because it stole everything from.... a dictionary...

Cheers...

 

[Akumajou]

And God bless every single one of those 2 million purchasers for making sure that Quantic Dreams stays in the industry making games as awesome as this

W00t I'll second that, I got this game when the it became a Greatest Hits two months ago.

Very high quality and I definetly would love to see either a sequel or a completely new game game from Quantic Dream on PS3.

 

[green.pixel]

Even though I agree with many of your points (just as the story is bad, the ego of Mr. Cage seems as gigantic and sometimes I fear that the success of Heavy Rain will give us another bad story game from Quantic Dream), I disagree that the game is bad. Why?

Because people, IMO, get constantly mixed up into peripheral things like QTEs! But, IMO, it is all about these things:

a) immersion (how many times, especially us who played hundreds of games (me since playing H.E.R.O. as a kid in 198x, have started to loose the immersion many times and play mechanically; same thing with movies where you often know all the tricks of the screenwriters etc.), in my case the QTEs were great for being immersed and "forgetting the controls" and finally not thinking about playing part/level xy perfectly; also for a newbie in video games I do not see ANY game that is better than Heavy Rain

QTEs are not perhipheral things. It is the complete dead-end of interactivity and a massive dumbing down. The only innovation that matters is improving games by genres (and of course, I'm not excluding mixing the elements from different ones). Developers should focus on making games with more advanced, interesting designs and mechanics. When you go down the route of "sentimental" and supposedly "artful/artistic" games, it just becomes a marketing label for inferior games used by, If I may say, the "artfag/hipster" crowd. On one side, you have these pretentious games and on the other, "traditional" games which simplify/dumb down the design and mechanics in favor of going for a more "movie-like" experience or for the mass market appeal, or both. Both trends are really bad for the medium if you ask me. "‘Cinematic gameplay" is an oxymoron, to do both you must weaken both. I'll quote one of my favourite game designers:

Does linear narrative in games not appeal to you?

Well, interaction is the thing – it’s what we do, right? It’s the one thing that sets us apart. What passes for interaction in the game business 98 per cent of the time is an illusion, and the reality is that we have enough computing power and we have enough software knowledge that we can actually create truer interaction than we could in the past. When I see people faking it – choices that don’t mean anything, choices that have no consequences, choices where the game will keep bumping you back until you make the right one, games that allow you to see every branch of every crummy conversation tree because every word is a gem, as if you wanted to go down even one branch of a conversation tree – I just can’t deal with that.

Really giving players power over how a story unfolds is the ultimate grail. There are baby steps we need to take along the way, and there are people taking those steps, but by and large people are still in the movie mindset. As soon as I hear of scripted moments that provide incredible emotional punch, and as soon as I go on forums and read every person saying ‘Wasn’t it cool when character X jumped across that chasm?’ all I want to do is scream. If every player is doing exactly the same thing at exactly the same time, it’s not a game. Go make a movie and get out of my medium.

Not a fan of the cut-scene, then?

I think cut-scenes have their value: they’re valuable as player rewards, and there are certain things that, because we’re still young as a medium, we don’t know how to solve in an interactive storytelling context and so it’s important to communicate that in cinematic ways. There’s value in cut-scenes, but they are dramatically over-used. But the real point I’m trying to make isn’t that cut-scenes are bad, it’s that what passes for the interactive parts of most games might as well be cut-scenes.

Game is bad because the largest part of it and almost the only things it has are the story and characters and both are an utter mess. Add almost complete lack of meaningful interactivity via QTEs, and you end up with a complete disaster.

 

[Yemeth]

Hello green.pixel,

thanks for your reply. I agree with all of your points in your new posting, but I still think that Heavy Rain is a good game.

Because, even though I completely agree and say Heavy Rain should have been open world, free roaming, 1000 stories branching like to be the game I want that games become. But, it is more than unrealistic to expect that in 2010 or any time soon (it is even unlikely that it can ever be produced as the production cost are splitted up in such a way that you spend least of the money on the writing).

Let's say that Heavy Rain is the worst game ever. Let's ignore that several scenes are very powerfull for many people (I do not have a child, but still adore the concept etc., bit refreshing after so many princes with birthmarks/pendants, space marines, cool dudes, women with great breast pysics etc.) etc. etc.

It has still one of the things I really look forward to, no game over screen and story branching!

QTEs are not perhipheral things. It is the complete dead-end of interactivity and a massive dumbing down.

Oh, and a last thing. Do not misunderstand me and think that I adore QTEs, I just think in Fahrenheit (the opening scene is one of the best scenes in gaming history) and Heavy Rain is a nice fit. I bought Dragons Lair for "good old times" sake and have almost not touched it (because it has a game over scene and you need to replay thing for x times).

On one side, you have these pretentious games and on the other, "traditional" games which simplify/dumb down the design and mechanics in favor of going for a more "movie-like" experience or for the mass market appeal, or both

Agree, but for example I liked the movie Taken. It has also a, at best, average story etc. but I liked it. But I will surely not say it is bad, just because Seven Samurai is a thousand times better. I, somehow, get this feeling when discussing Heavy Rain, we are constantly repeating the flaws and ignoring the good parts (maybe I am making it the other way around, so we are even?).

Anyway, as I am always on the look for good new games, what game(s) did you adored and come right into your head? Because I agree with 99% of your thoughts, I just think you are a bit too harsh to, in this case, Heavy Rain. You can PM me if you do not want to derail the thread...

BTW, just look at what e.g. Avellone made after PS: T. Hyped up good games (for example KOTOR) where you have the "nice" Hollywood black and white portrayal of the world and bad black and white mechanics with a "nice" "goody/baddy" bar. Also the completely wrong direction (and this is the reason I believe Henkel that he had more designer input in PS: T than Avellone et al are giving him credit for, as in PS: T you have no black and white portrayals, no sex scene "sex is important, says Avellone, so lets put in games" etc.), but I would never call KOTOR a bad game.

 

[Prophecy2k]

Game is bad because the largest part of it and almost the only things it has are the story and characters and both are an utter mess. Add almost complete lack of meaningful interactivity via QTEs, and you end up with a complete disaster.

QTE is a moniker that someone invented to describe the interactive cut scenes in God of War. It is by definition interactive, and just because you're not a fan it doesn't really make QTE's on their own objectively bad (some people don't mind them, and some people actually like them... I know shock horror). However saying that Heavy Rain is just all QTE's is a bit disingenuous really because it isn't.

To me Heavy Rain is more of a modern take on the point & click adventure genre. Sure the story isn't oscar quality but i'm not looking for that when i play this kind of video game. Whilst you also might dislike the VA, i and many others felt it was fine and worked well in that it served it's objective... i.e. helping you to feel immersed in the world and being able to feel for the characters. So what if Ethan Mars didn't sound like an American (a popular criticism) do all people living in America sound like Americans? It's rather naive to think so or expect so, and even worse to claim "awful voice acting" for that reason alone *roll eyes*.

Some people didn't have an enjoyable experience with Heavy Rain, they didn't connect with the characters, they even saw the plot holes (i didn't until they were pointed out to me by someone complaining on gaf), they weren't caught by the atmosphere or tension that the game creates with it's scenes. They didn't appreciate the uniqueness of the game and it's experience. But they're not everyone and their experience with the game is neither ubiquitous nor superior to my experience just because they had a very different expectation going into it initially.

If you didn't like Heavy Rain green.pixel then i'm sorry for that. Because of the nature of the game it's not gonna be a game for everyone. Yet going on an internet rampage to continually spewing the same speil about your opinion and experience with the game being superiour to the rest of ours and thus making the game objectively bad (based on very subjective metrics) is just a bit off. Get over it! You didn't like it, so move on and play something else. I think you already told almost everyone on these forums now why you didn't like HR. So there's really little more to be said.

 

[tuna]

QTE is a moniker that someone invented to describe the interactive cut scenes in God of War. It is by definition interactive, and just because you're not a fan it doesn't really make QTE's on their own objectively bad (some people don't mind them, and some people actually like them... I know shock horror). However saying that Heavy Rain is just all QTE's is a bit disingenuous really because it isn't.

Yu Suzuki invented the name for Shenmue, but it has been used in other games like Space Ace and a Mega-CD anime driving game I can not remember the name of....

 

[green.pixel]

If you didn't like Heavy Rain green.pixel then i'm sorry for that. Because of the nature of the game it's not gonna be a game for everyone. Yet going on an internet rampage to continually spewing the same speil about your opinion and experience with the game being superiour to the rest of ours and thus making the game objectively bad (based on very subjective metrics) is just a bit off. Get over it! You didn't like it, so move on and play something else. I think you already told almost everyone on these forums now why you didn't like HR. So there's really little more to be said.

Nobody forces you to read mine or anyone else's opinion of the game or any other game for that matter. If you don't like them, tough titties then. You say, you didn't notice the plot holes. That tells me all I need to know.

It literally is nothing but the story mixed with endless QTE sequences. The biggest part of the game - the plot and the characterization - are completely abysmal, and because of that they become a MUCH bigger problem than in other games. I think you just have very low expectations for stories (especially in a plot-only/heavy title like this one) and there's nothing I or anyone else can do to convince you and people like you otherwise.

Anyway, as I am always on the look for good new games, what game(s) did you adored and come right into your head? Because I agree with 99% of your thoughts, I just think you are a bit too harsh to, in this case, Heavy Rain. You can PM me if you do not want to derail the thread...

If you want adventure games, you can play Blade Runner, The Last Express, Syberias etc.. But "interactive storytelling" is or should be the essence of roleplaying games. Even ME1 does a much better job with that than HR. Just the fact that Maddison is there to show her tits speaks how bad the story is. Cage probably had a dream fantasy of a super model walking around naked and peeing and just wanted to put that in a game.

Heavy Rain is a gigantic step backwards for games, especially in the storytelling departament. But it seems that a lot of people are willing to bend over huge issues and justifying them by saying "it was different (or 'mature' lol) and for being different, it should be applauded".

BTW, just look at what e.g. Avellone made after PS: T. Hyped up good games (for example KOTOR) where you have the "nice" Hollywood black and white portrayal of the world and bad black and white mechanics with a "nice" "goody/baddy" bar. Also the completely wrong direction (and this is the reason I believe Henkel that he had more designer input in PS: T than Avellone et al are giving him credit for, as in PS: T you have no black and white portrayals, no sex scene "sex is important, says Avellone, so lets put in games" etc.), but I would never call KOTOR a bad game.

Yeah, I agree.

Brian Mitsoda of Bloodlines fame has set up a new studio and is working on Dead State. Without the pressure of mainsteam appeal, I expect that to be a first-rate game, in both the RPG mechanics and especially writing,

 

[Yemeth]

Brian Mitsoda of Bloodlines fame is working on Dead State. I expect that to be a first-rate game, without the pressure of mainsteam appeal, in both the RPG mechanics and especially writing,

Thanks a bunch! Something I will put on my radar and check it out as soon it comes out!

Edit: Thanks also for the other recommandations, I have played some of them but never found the time to play the others, when I save up some money GOG will be visited again .

All the best and thanks for the nice discussion!

 

[Prophecy2k]

Nobody forces you to read mine or anyone else's opinion of the game or any other game for that matter. If you don't like them, tough titties then. You say, you didn't notice the plot holes. That tells me all I need to know.

Well yeah duh, i was too busy actually enjoying my experience with the game... go figure ;-)

It literally is nothing but the story mixed with endless QTE sequences. The biggest part of the game - the plot and the characterization - are completely abysmal, and because of that they become a MUCH bigger problem than in other games.

Yeah you keep parroting this, but the hundreds of people that played and enjoyed the game (including all the reviewers that reviewed it well, i.e. most of em) would disagree with you.

I think you just have very low expectations for stories (especially in a plot-only/heavy title like this one) and there's nothing I or anyone else can do to convince you and people like you otherwise.

Don't dare assume to know what my expectations for stories in general are, again that makes you sound like a pretentious twit. I already said i had a certain expectation going into this game. I wasn't expecting Shindler's list, but a fairly competant story with characters that were believable and that served only as a resonable context for the game. I wasn't dissappointed. You were though, because guess what? You had a different expectation. That doesn't mean that either my or your expectation going into HR speaks to anything beyond our expectations going into this particular game. Just because i could play HR and enjoy it, and you couldn't doesn't in anyway mean that my general expectation for stories in games or any other medium is lower than yours... you have neither the knowledge nor right to qualify you to make that kind of assertion.

If you want adventure games, you can play Blade Runner, The Last Express, Syberias etc.. But "interactive storytelling" is or should be the essence of roleplaying games. Even ME1 does a much better job with that than HR. Just the fact that Maddison is there to show her tits speaks how bad the story is. Cage probably had a dream fantasy of a super model walking around naked and peeing and just wanted to put that in a game.

Who are you to tell me what to play? Who are you to decide for anyone beyond yourself what an "interactive story-based" games SHOULD or SHOULD NOT BE? Errr, now i think you're really pushing it.

Heavy Rain is a gigantic step backwards for games, especially in the storytelling departament. But it seems that a lot of people are willing to bend over huge issues and justifying them by saying "it was different (or 'mature' lol) and for being different, it should be applauded".

Hyperbole much?... There are games with far worse stories than HR... even games that purport themselves as being story based games. People that dislike these games ignore them and don't fly around the net crying righteous indignation because the game dared to even be made. Geez

 

[green.pixel]

No offense, but people are like you are a hopeless case.


HR is a shitty game with an even shittier story. It is the The Room of video games and David Cage is a charlatan. There's no two ways about it. Let's face it, game journalists are incapable of proper game criticism and are too busy licking publisher's asses. Because suits know that review scores/hype impact purchasing decisions.

 

[Prophecy2k]

*sigh*

Anyways, Heavy Rain is a solid game and a unique experience and i recommend it for anyone who hasn't played it and is looking for something that's a bit of break from the norm.

I had loads of fun with it. I recommend playing it with MOVE controls as it's way more fun ;-)

 

[Jedi2016]

The last few pages of this thread are astounding.

I'll just ask this one question, and I'll be amazed if I actually get a real answer to it:

GP, why can you not give people the simple respect of allowing them their own opinion? Why is your opinion the only correct one?

And this has nothing to do with the game.. I haven't played it, so I have no opinion about the game one way or the other. But I do have issue with people who refuse to acknowledge that other people may have differing opinions than their own. It's a basic tenet of free will.

You're like a Jehovah's Witness.. perfectly happy to share your own opinion with others, but to have someone attempt to speak their own mind, no matter how small the differences between what you say and what I say, and you become outraged.

I'll give you one chance to give an intelligent response to my question. Then you're going on the ignore list. And to reiterate, I don't care what you think of Heavy Rain.. I'm not asking about the game. I'm asking about your insensitivity to other people's opinions.

 

[green.pixel]

But I do have issue with people who refuse to acknowledge that other people may have differing opinions than their own.

Nothing against them, that just doesn't mean they are right. They can like dog poo for all I care and claim it's the best thing since sliced bread.

Then you're going on the ignore list. And to reiterate, I don't care what you think of Heavy Rain.. I'm not asking about the game. I'm asking about your insensitivity to other people's opinions.

Good, do it ASAP. For those other people's sake, hopefully they'll realise some day (and sooner rather than later) that they were wrong and why.


The only people who don't find the game/"movie"/story objectively poor are those who aren't discerning enough and the chances are that they are experiencing games and movies (and probably other things too) on a very superficial level.

 

[manux]

My feeling from latest posts

No, it was not perfect game but I still rank it one of the best games last year... There is only so many sequels or fps games one can play before they all become the same. Heavy rain clearly did something new in the console scope and I can only hope the innovation continues in future.

I can perfectly agree that for some people heavy rain might be utter garbage with no value... But obviously it's not the case with ALL the people.

All that said, I actually liked heavenly sword also a LOT even though in mainstream it was bashed and deemed as quite the average or below average button smasher.

For matters of taste there is no point arguing, everybody is right. Forcing your own taste upon others or judging people with different taste on the other hand is not very constructive.

 

[Antan]

Certainly add me to the people who really enjoyed HR, and yes........the thread has really been side tracker over the past 2 pages.

 

[Prophecy2k]

I'm definitely done adding any fuel to the fire of a certain one who is clearly blinded by his own ego.

I didn't intend for the course of the discussion to go so far off topic, therefore i offer my sincere apologies to those who merely desired to have a rational and intelligent discussion about Heavy Rain.

On topic however, I was thinking about the game this morning and I was wondering (this is directed to those who've playing the game - with the exception of one), is there an explanation for Ethan Mar's black outs?

I came across this in my internet search

From this it seems that some of the plot holes were more a product of last minute changes to the game (which unavoidably affected the story) rather than an intention to leave certain things unexplained. I do think i'd have liked some of those deleted scenes. I'm glad they did decide against adding in any supernatural elements though.

Edit: Also how do i spoiler tag?

Also, guess who:

 

[Cornsnake]

Spoiler

Just quote this post and you'll see how to make the spoiler tags.

 

[nightshade]

Also, guess who:

Jacqui Ainsley the model for Madison....she's hot hot hot !

 

[AlNom]

This is relevant to my interests.

 

[nightshade]

Happens to be English.

EDIT: Broken sarcasm detector :/